Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[JohnFB]

... I also believe that one of the reasons Karen was such a good singer was thanks to her talent as a drummer. The rhythmic precision in her singing was impeccable. Maybe too impeccable, sometimes. But Karen's keen sense of rhythm helped to create stunning interpretations of song lyrics...

The rhythmic precision of Karen's singing? What is that exactly? How does one determine how precise it is? How can it be too impeccable?

 

[byline]

The rhythmic precision of Karen's singing? What is that exactly? How does one determine how precise it is? How can it be too impeccable?

It's subjective. But I have read it, more than once, as a rare criticism of Karen's singing. It would likely come from someone of a jazz or blues background who prefers more rhythmic fluidity. It's not my place to say that opinion is wrong, because it's an opinion from a different musical tradition than mine. But there are times when I can see that point of view, even if I prefer Karen's method of singing.

Karen's rhythmic precision resulted in less "swing" in her singing. All you have to do is listen to her duet with Ella Fitzgerald to hear the difference. Both singers were consummate artists, yet they had very different styles. Ella's style had more swing to it. Karen tended to land perfectly on each note, almost like a skilled tap dancer dancing across the notes. As I said, I prefer Karen's style. But I also respect the artistry of Ella's style.

 

[JohnFB]

It's subjective. But I have read it, more than once, as a rare criticism of Karen's singing. It would likely come from someone of a jazz or blues background who prefers more rhythmic fluidity. It's not my place to say that opinion is wrong, because it's an opinion from a different musical tradition than mine. But there are times when I can see that point of view, even if I prefer Karen's method of singing.

Karen's rhythmic precision resulted in less "swing" in her singing. All you have to do is listen to her duet with Ella Fitzgerald to hear the difference. Both singers were consummate artists, yet they had very different styles. Ella's style had more swing to it. Karen tended to land perfectly on each note, almost like a skilled tap dancer dancing across the notes. As I said, I prefer Karen's style. But I also respect the artistry of Ella's style.

That's pretty much what I was thinking - just wanted to see if you were talking about the same thing.

Karen, of course, knew all about swing, both instrumentally and vocally - she was a first rate jazz drummer and she had grown up listening to (and probably singing along with) many of the great jazz/swing singers in the past, including Ella. Most of the songs she recorded didn't require a swing style. But she could swing as "A Song for You" brilliantly demonstrated.

And I would have offered the Ella duet as a great example instead of exactly how good she was at this. She holds her own in the best traditions of this style. An independent reviewer of the duet I saw who knew nothing about her training once guessed accurately that she must have had a jazz background.

So, while you're correct, it wasn't because she couldn't, but mostly because the occasion seldom arose for her to swing. Too bad we never got an album loaded with great old jazz standards for her to show just how versatile she was. Ella would have been proud...

 

[Late2theParty]

True, but let's not forget that she has also influenced female drummers ... however buried that is from the public eye. And I think that multi-faceted influence is one of the things that should work in the Carpenters' favor, in terms of induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

Every once in a while, when I need a reminder, I watch a clip of Karen's playing live performances of "Mr. Guder" and watch her face. Belgium, Japan, Johnny Carson, it's a moment of pure ecstacy for her. Add in her doing a 1974 version of "hair rock" on the Budokan "Johnny B. Goode" and you can tell what she enjoyed more than anything. I think Rock and Rollers would be surprised at some of that. Oh...and the "Dancing in the streets" bit on All-American. She had the chops...

 

[byline]

And I would have offered the Ella duet as a great example instead of exactly how good she was at this. She holds her own in the best traditions of this style. An independent reviewer of the duet I saw who knew nothing about her training once guessed accurately that she must have had a jazz background.

True, but you can hear a big difference in how Ella swings and how Karen swings. Ella's is much more pronounced. Karen lands on the notes more precisely, and I think her percussive precision plays into her singing precision.

 

[JohnFB]

True, but you can hear a big difference in how Ella swings and how Karen swings. Ella's is much more pronounced. Karen lands on the notes more precisely, and I think her percussive precision plays into her singing precision.

On the songs they chose to sing during the duet - all Standards - their isn't much, if any, difference - at least I don't hear it - which begs the question: how much "swing" or jazz-like inflection is enough, and how much is too much? Beyond a certain point it's a distraction, like all "vocal gymnastics" - Karen never went there - she could have, but always chose the tasteful route, preferring to emphasize clarity of pronunciation and expression of feeling as embodied in the song's lyrics - which are two of the reasons she was so very good at her craft - why her singing is almost invariably described as "effortless"...

 

[byline]

On the songs they chose to sing during the duet - all Standards - their isn't much, if any, difference - at least I don't hear it - which begs the question: how much "swing" or jazz-like inflection is enough, and how much is too much?

I hear a fair bit of difference, so we hear this differently. Which is fine. I think that gets into how subjective this analysis can be. As for how much is too much? Again, I think this is subjective. It's why some critics (I think they were a minority) complained that Karen's singing was too rhythmically precise. They wanted to hear more swing. So it wasn't that Karen was too precise, but rather that their tastes longed for more swing than she instilled in her singing. But I doubt that it was ever worded that way to allow for how widely opinion can vary from one person to the next, based on our expectations.

If you had asked me my opinion back when I first heard this duet, I would have insisted that Karen was better than Ella, but that's just showing my bias as a Karen fan. I've grown up since then and recognize how wonderful Ella Fitzgerald was, and how beautifully they sang together (though I confess that I wish Karen had really been singing live along with Ella, rather than lip syncing).

 

[newvillefan]

Karen's rhythmic precision resulted in less "swing" in her singing. All you have to do is listen to her duet with Ella Fitzgerald to hear the difference. Both singers were consummate artists, yet they had very different styles. Ella's style had more swing to it. Karen tended to land perfectly on each note, almost like a skilled tap dancer dancing across the notes. As I said, I prefer Karen's style. But I also respect the artistry of Ella's style.

They came from different eras and Karen’s style was probably heavily influenced by her love for all things percussive. Karen did however bring many great things to her vocal performances. Look at her pronunciation of the word “c-lose” on ‘Close To You’. She likely never would have had done that if she wasn’t a drummer.

 

[JohnFB]

...

If you had asked me my opinion back when I first heard this duet, I would have insisted that Karen was better than Ella, but that's just showing my bias as a Karen fan. I've grown up since then and recognize how wonderful Ella Fitzgerald was, and how beautifully they sang together (though I confess that I wish Karen had really been singing live along with Ella, rather than lip syncing).

Yes, I wish that too and I'll never understand why she didn't- I also wish (going big time on my wishes) that that duet had been at least 2 hours long - and I wish they had recorded a whole album full of those wonderful Standards...

 

[newvillefan]

Why did Richard re-sign with Sherwin Bash all those years later? He’s not known for being one to go back and rekindle severed connections.

Nobody has ever been able to answer this. Anyone?

 

[Portlander]

I've always been curious also. If Richard made peace with Sherwin he should have been able to patch things up with Neil Sedaka and I think it would be awesome if he had Neil make a few special guest appearances during his tour of the UK this fall. Talk about extending the olive branch!

 

[byline]

I don't get the sense that Richard ever patched things up with Neil Sedaka. That was such a negative turning point in his and Karen's career, and it wouldn't surprise me if Richard still blames Neil for it. Or, maybe he has learned to forgive, but not forget. Or, maybe he has owned up to his own responsibility for what happened. All pure speculation on my part, of course.

Richard may have felt an allegiance to Sherwin, a sense of gratitude for all he did for them in the Carpenters' heyday. Yes, we all know about the over-touring, and also how Sherwin was MIA when things blew up between Richard and Neil. But I'm sure there was also a lot more that he did, which Richard knows about, and we never will. That bond may have been strong enough to forge a reunion between Richard and Sherwin.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Forgiving someone and saying "Hey! Let's go out on tour again!" are two entirely different things.

You wanna be halfway across the world only to find out you were right 40 years ago?

 

[newvillefan]

Richard may have felt an allegiance to Sherwin, a sense of gratitude for all he did for them in the Carpenters' heyday. Yes, we all know about the over-touring, and also how Sherwin was MIA when things blew up between Richard and Neil.

It does seem odd though that Richard reunited with Sherwin when to this day he still blames mis-management for the over-touring and how they were treated by the label (seems to me the latter was more Herb and Jerry’s fault anyway).

 

[byline]

It does seem odd though that Richard reunited with Sherwin when to this day he still blames mis-management for the over-touring and how they were treated by the label (seems to me the latter was more Herb and Jerry’s fault anyway).

I wonder if Sherwin apologized to Richard for the over-touring. That may have been enough for Richard to agree to work with him again. After all, they worked together for a long time, so they would have had an understanding of one another. Given the choice between hiring someone new and dancing with the one who brought you, Richard may have opted for the familiarity of the old hand.

But forgiving Sherwin doesn't erase the fact of the over-touring and how it was detrimental to what Richard and Karen were able to create in the recording studio. So it's only natural that Richard would still bring it up in any discussion of what was happening when they were recording their albums during that time.

I agree that their treatment at A&M was a separate issue and should have been handled better by Herb and Jerry.

 

[Nemily]

@newvillefan just some thoughts. A&M was a business. I don’t think anyone really was ever assigned to look out for their well-being. Carpenters were still very young adults at the time of hiring Bash so doing for themselves was never even on the table.

From reading different articles, Bash was booking Concerts and then TV, probably handling the day-to-day things. It seems like K&R went from Mr. and Mrs. C then to Manager/friend Ed Sulzer and then they chose Sherwin Bash as their Manager around early November 1970. That begs one question, who then was looking out for them professionally after Ed Sulzer.

Bash may have not been on the management team at A&M however he formed a personal management entertainment firm BNB Management in New York in 1950 and went on to discover and sign Herb Alpert in the 60’s so Bash being hired as Carpenters Manager has a dotted line to A&M even before he was their manager. There is even a dotted line to the Summer 1971 TV series as Bash was also the Manager for Don Knotts.

After 1970 and with the exception of Bettis/Carpenters original songs, it all seems a lot of Carpenters songwriters and material that went to single releases had a dotted line to their own family at A&M. I’m sure this was to generate even bigger royalties. When you have an act hit big like Carpenters did, and a voice like Karen's, it was good for everyone, including K&R.

To wrap up that point, C’s were viewed as a business by A&M and were probably somewhat modeled after acts that came before them in the 60’s, in the sense that they promoted a lot of the label’s music like how BMB and TJB did a lot of Bacharach or music written by someone in contract. I just think the focus at that time was about the business model and not so much about the well-being of the artist. The difference with artists' today is they have more awareness and voice in business matters. I am not saying that how K&R were handled was right or justified. Just pointing out the miss.

I don’t specifically see any articles that points directly to Bash doing any one thing wrong other than being asleep on the Sedaka debacle, however I haven’t read everything as you have. We weren't there to see how it all went down that cataclysmic night in 1975.

The Newsletter did address it ‘I have to advise you that Mr Sherwin Bash is no longer employed as Manager for The Carpenters. Over the past few years, Richard and Karen have experienced conflicting opinions regarding a management philosophy. In view of this, and to avoid undue friction, they agreed to sever business associations on amicable terms’.

So perhaps amicable terms left the door open for Richard and Bash working again down the road.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

When did Richard re-sign with Sherwin Bash?

 

[byline]

When did Richard re-sign with Sherwin Bash?

Going by Chris May's post in the obituary thread for Sherwin Bash, followed up with a similar post by Rumbahbah, it would have been around 1997.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Going by Chris May's post in the obituary thread for Sherwin Bash, followed up with a similar post by Rumbahbah, it would have been around 1997.

So, well past the point where Sherwin was likely to repeat the mistake of over-touring.

 

[Mike Smith]

I've never heard Richard speak ill of A&M. What are the issues?

 

[Nemily]

Precisely. And Richard and Sherwin Bash were off and then on again catching some by surprise.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I've never heard Richard speak ill of A&M.

Just read almost any interview of him where he talks about their image. He doesn't mention A&M specifically, but the label is who provided them with their photographers, image consultants and all that. He was definitely unhappy with them. Read the 1974 Rolling Stone article (which is elsewhere on this site, just do a quick search) and he gets into the nitty gritty.

 

[Harry]

He doesn't mention A&M specifically, but the label is who provided them with their photographers, image consultants and all that. He was definitely unhappy with them.

Exactly. Fans often don't understand the chain of command that existed at A&M and love to simply place blame on the two faces they do know - Herb and Jerry. And while the buck stops at the top, there were plenty of underlings who couldn't quite get the Carpenters' image right.

 

[Mike Smith]

Thanks, Harry and Mike. I thought the reference was to financial issues. I was aware of the "image" unhappiness.

 

[3Favorites]

But wouldn't the music have as much to do with the image as anything. I would think they were considered middle of the road. And people tended to look with disdain at that kind of music. But even so a lot of people seemed to buy it.