Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[Geographer]

Personally, it doesn't matter, to me anyway, if ever Carpenters are in the RNRHOF or not. Really, what would change? We still have the music regardless. Also, it seems an out-of-touch pretentious bunch that seems to decide. Why is their opinion important? Might actually be a badge of honor and counter-culture to NOT be in the RNRHOF. But again, why does it matter either way? Carpenters music still sells with each new generation that discovers them. We still listen to their music throughout our lives whether they are in the RNRHOF or not.

 

[Harry]

That's pretty much my opinion - it really doesn't matter one way or the other. But at least by re-opening this old topic, we got some good information on the why's and why not's. Thanks as always to Michael for his indefatigable research abilities.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Everybody and their brother can be.

Except, apparently, Karen and her brother.

So far.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Much of what's been written in this thread (aside from @Michael Hagerty's research) is "I'm mad because Carpenters aren't in the RRHOF." As has been said, it really doesn't matter all that much. It doesn't diminish Karen's gifts in the slightest, neither should it affect how their fans feel about them. If you love them, you still can. They were never critical darlings so their absence from the RRHOF should surprise no one.

Ed

 

[Harry]

They were never critical darlings so their absence from the RRHOF should surprise no one.

But there has been a number of "street cred" artists in recent years who've finally admitted that they loved Carpenters music - or at least Karen's voice or drum work - so it "feels right" that an entry might finally right a wrong that's been many years coming.

Again it doesn't matter to me really, it's just that it seems that they've been slighted way too long and it's about time to fix that. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't matter to me anyway.

 

[JohnFB]

But there has been a number of "street cred" artists in recent years who've finally admitted that they loved Carpenters music - or at least Karen's voice or drum work - so it "feels right" that an entry might finally right a wrong that's been many years coming.

I've wondered sometimes why some people felt compelled to hide their love of the Carpenter's music - to be in the closet about it. It wasn't just other artists, but a number of ordinary people. They listened secretly and didn't have the courage to admit it publicly. Fear of ridicule lead to fear of standing up for your preferences, your choices, your taste in music.

Even more difficult to comprehend is the emotional motives or faulty thinking of those few rare individuals who claim to not like Karen's voice - they do exist (although the numbers are very small) and I can't figure out if they are suffering from some cerebral shortcoming, or being dishonest, or just trying to "be different". That sound which eminates from her vocal apparatus is so stunningly warm and welcoming and compelling that it boggles the mind and defies all reason to realize that there are a few who don't absolutely love it with passion. What ARE they thinking?

Yes, the time is right to correct a wrong - a wrong that has been running since 1995 or so...the voting committee of "500 experts" need to finally come out of their closets...

Again it doesn't matter to me really, it's just that it seems that they've been slighted way too long and it's about time to fix that. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't - well, it doesn't matter to me anyway.

But it does matter and if it happens, yes, fine & dandy - I'll drink a virtual toast with everyone. Any "bubbly" will do. If not, then the gross injustice continues and the committee remains in denial, in their stuffy closet, smoking whatever they're smoking...

 

[Without A Song]

Until ABBA was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I agreed with people who said the Carpenters didn't belong there. But if ABBA is in the hall, Richard and Karen deserve to be inducted as well. Same genre: soft rock-pop music.

Personally I think ABBA benefited from their career starting in the mid-70s, rather than the more turbulent late '60s-eatly '70s when the Carpenters made their debut. ABBA didn't receive anywhere near the negative press the Carpenters did. Plus their roots were in Europe, not America, which was less critical of soft rock music. And the Carpenters could be considered, along with Bread, the vanguard for the soft rock acts that followed them, including ABBA and the Captain and Tennille.

One question I'd like to hear hall reps answer: How is it that ABBA merits induction but not the Carpenters?

 

[Jack A.]

Here’s my two cents on everything…

IMHO, the main reason for why the C’s haven’t been inducted when other soft-rock groups have still has to do with the image. A “goody-four-shoes” duo who lived a conservative, all-American lifestyle is just going to automatically be very low on the priority list of artists to get inducted - as sad and BS of a reason as that may be. And despite the increasingly positive reviews the C’s have garnered retrospectively in the decades following Karen’s death, I think the negative reviews they received back in the day have still had a lasting impact on how music critics may view them nowadays. Because of this, they are not really given enough of a chance when considering whether they are worthy to be inducted - they are judged too quickly.

Plus, I think some of it comes down to the musical tastes of the committee responsible for nominating new artists. Why did it take Chicago almost 50 years to get inducted when they were making hit after hit all through the 70’s and well into the 80’s, most of them considered “rock?” Maybe 70’s jazz-rock was just out of style and beyond the interests of the nominating committee. Similarly, 70’s orchestral progressive pop/soft rock doesn’t seem to be on all that many people’s radar anymore either.

But that all shouldn’t matter! As was mentioned previously, Richard essentially invented the power ballad. The C’s were arguably the first group to popularize the art of overdubbing vocals. Karen’s love of playing the drums inspired numerous females to take up an instrument that was normally occupied by males (Sheila E + other well-known drummers?). That sounds to me like a group that deserves to have a place in the musical legacy of the RRHOF, regardless of what kind of life they lived or what a few critics thought of their music.

Anyway, that was my rant.

 

[Nemily]

And the Carpenters could be considered, along with Bread, the vanguard for the soft rock acts

Avant-garde, yes. Carpenters didn’t fit the mold, they broke it. And their success broadened the landscape for many others.

Richard and Karen experimented in music originated in the 60’s, but it was in 1970 when Carpenters music morphed into a new fulfilled sound, a genre that mainstream radio didn’t initially quite know how to group or label. They were at the forefront of a softer and more melodic sound, lush and layered. Not rock, but not 60’s.

It seems to me that whether you like Carpenters or not, their place in music history is at the very least, salient.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Until ABBA was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I agreed with people who said the Carpenters didn't belong there. But if ABBA is in the hall, Richard and Karen deserve to be inducted as well. Same genre: soft rock-pop music.

Personally I think ABBA benefited from their career starting in the mid-70s, rather than the more turbulent late '60s-eatly '70s when the Carpenters made their debut. ABBA didn't receive anywhere near the negative press the Carpenters did. Plus their roots were in Europe, not America, which was less critical of soft rock music. And the Carpenters could be considered, along with Bread, the vanguard for the soft rock acts that followed them, including ABBA and the Captain and Tennille.

One question I'd like to hear hall reps answer: How is it that ABBA merits induction but not the Carpenters?

If the ABBA songbook hadn't been turned into a hit Broadway musical and film (MAMMA MIA!), I don't think they'd be there.

Look at the timeline: Broadway debut 2001 (it ran for 14 years and touring companies and anniversary productions keep it alive), the movie (made for $52 million and grossing nearly $700 million) premieres in 2008 and ABBA is inducted in 2010.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Here’s my two cents on everything…

IMHO, the main reason for why the C’s haven’t been inducted when other soft-rock groups have still has to do with the image. A “goody-four-shoes” duo who lived a conservative, all-American lifestyle is just going to automatically be very low on the priority list of artists to get inducted - as sad and BS of a reason as that may be. And despite the increasingly positive reviews the C’s have garnered retrospectively in the decades following Karen’s death, I think the negative reviews they received back in the day have still had a lasting impact on how music critics may view them nowadays. Because of this, they are not really given enough of a chance when considering whether they are worthy to be inducted - they are judged too quickly.

Plus, I think some of it comes down to the musical tastes of the committee responsible for nominating new artists. Why did it take Chicago almost 50 years to get inducted when they were making hit after hit all through the 70’s and well into the 80’s, most of them considered “rock?” Maybe 70’s jazz-rock was just out of style and beyond the interests of the nominating committee. Similarly, 70’s orchestral progressive pop/soft rock doesn’t seem to be on all that many people’s radar anymore either.

You've just argued against yourself.

Carpenters became eligible for induction into the Hall in 1994.

So did Chicago, who got in 22 years later--seven years ago. A band that dedicated its second album to "the Revolution, in all its forms", and had a mock phone booth on the stage for one tour called the "Snortitorium", where they could do lines of coke without actually having to leave the stage.

What they have in common:

Both released their first albums in 1969, and neither were inducted the year they became eligible.

Very few artists are.

There's a very strong tendency to assume Carpenters aren't in because of their image. No one in a position to know or vote has ever said that on the record, and there is no evidence to support it.

Again---hundreds of acts, six or seven inductees a year, and until recently, a founding member who has now outed himself as having a low opinion of female artists.

It's math.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Now, of course, if anyone sends the nominating committee copies of this, all bets are off:

 

[crescentnoon]

The complete lack of a nomination is where the insult comes in, can't just be a math thing at that point.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

The complete lack of a nomination is where the insult comes in, can't just be a math thing at that point.

Sure it can. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of acts who are eligible but haven’t been nominated yet.

Again—-14 nominees a year, 7 inductees.

 

[crescentnoon]

Chic has been nominated 11 times. Sheryl Crow got in on her first nomination. The White Stripes have already been nominated. 2023 alone saw 14 nominees. Something just doesn't add up.

 

[Jack A.]

Yeah, it seems like the standards for getting inducted have gone down by a lot, considering some of the artists who have been nominated in recent years. It doesn't seem like it's as big of an honor as it used to be.

To be honest, just "Close To You" to me would be a reason for the C's to be at least nominated. It's arguably one of the most recognizable songs of the 20th century (many people say they don't know who the Carpenters are, but they will recognize CTY when they hear it), and it was noted for showcasing Richard's genius arranging skills as well as being perfect for Karen's beautiful voice. Then the fact that they continued that formula for two more number ones plus a multitude of other Top 40 hits proves that the two of them really had something special about them.

 

[Lynda]

No, they have not been nominated yet (to my knowledge), but has the topic of the potential for "Carpenters" being inducted into the Hall of Fame been discussed here yet??

I know that it is up to a "Hall of Fame" committee to decide who gets nominated for that year, and then ultimately voted on by a large team of industry buffs to decide who actually makes it. BUT, is there any way to get a ballot together or something to see if we can't get our favorite brother/sister duo in there? If ANYONE deserves to be there, it is Rich and Karen. Any other thoughts???? -Chris

I always wonder why they haven't already been inducted, seriously.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Much of what's been written in this thread (aside from @Michael Hagerty's research) is "I'm mad because Carpenters aren't in the RRHOF."

...and ignoring some fundamental facts now in evidence.

 

[Murray]

Sure it can. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of acts who are eligible but haven’t been nominated yet.

But only one of them was the top-selling American act of the 1970s!

 

[Chris May]

Part of the reason for all of this is because Richard really isn't interested in having the Carpenters inducted.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

But only one of them was the top-selling American act of the 1970s!

That would be the Eagles, Murray. And they're in.

 

[Jack A.]

But only one of them was the top-selling American act of the 1970s!

I’ve always had trouble believing that claim, but who knows, it could be true…you know what, I’m going to choose to believe that it is.

Edit: Just saw Michael’s response. Lol

 

[crescentnoon]

The Carpenters were the Number One American hit makers of the decade, according to Joel Whitburn’s authoritative Top Pop Singles

Carpenters: The Singles 1969-1973

They were the #1 best-selling American group between 1970 and 1980

Carpenters - Ed Sullivan Show

The Carpenter siblings, Richard and Karen, grew up in Connecticut in the 1950’s. Richard began playing the piano when he was very young and Karen picked up the drums in high school. In 1963 the family moved out west to Downey, California and they pursued a musical career. They signed a contract...

www.edsullivan.com

The Carpenters became the top American recording act of the 1970s

Carpenters: Close to You (My Music Presents) | | WTTW

The band's' career is traced.

schedule.wttw.com

The public caught on immediately, making the Carpenters the top-selling American artists of the 1970s.

About - The Carpenters

ABOUT THE CARPENTERS Biography A sweet memory. Your absolute favorite. An awesome discovery. We’ve Only Just Begun. Yesterday Once More. Goodbye To Love. With a trademark sound highlighted by brother Richard’s multi-layered production and sister Karen’s timeless voice, the Carpenters set a new...

www.carpentersofficial.com

They were the #1 American recording artists of the 1970s,

The Carpenters, New Haven Natives - Connecticut Explored

By William Hosley (c) Connecticut Explored Inc. Fall 2008 Subscribe/Buy the Issue! The Carpenters, the phenomenally successful pop group of the 1970s, were two baby boomers who grew up in New Haven, attended public schools there during the 1950s and 1960s, and achieved as much fame and worldly...

www.ctexplored.org

The Carpenters were the #1 selling American music act of the 1970s.

The Carpenters - Hollywood Walk of Fame

Carpenters or The Carpenters were a vocal and instrumental duo, consisting of siblings Karen and Richard Carpenter. The Carpenters were the #1 selling American music act of the 1970s. Though often referred to by the public as “The Carpenters”, the duo’s official name on authorized recordings and...

walkoffame.com

How did this 'anecdote' come about?

 

[Michael Hagerty]

The Carpenters were the Number One American hit makers of the decade, according to Joel Whitburn’s authoritative Top Pop Singles

Carpenters: The Singles 1969-1973

They were the #1 best-selling American group between 1970 and 1980

Carpenters - Ed Sullivan Show

The Carpenter siblings, Richard and Karen, grew up in Connecticut in the 1950’s. Richard began playing the piano when he was very young and Karen picked up the drums in high school. In 1963 the family moved out west to Downey, California and they pursued a musical career. They signed a contract...

www.edsullivan.com

The Carpenters became the top American recording act of the 1970s

Carpenters: Close to You (My Music Presents) | | WTTW

The band's' career is traced.

schedule.wttw.com

The public caught on immediately, making the Carpenters the top-selling American artists of the 1970s.

About - The Carpenters

ABOUT THE CARPENTERS Biography A sweet memory. Your absolute favorite. An awesome discovery. We’ve Only Just Begun. Yesterday Once More. Goodbye To Love. With a trademark sound highlighted by brother Richard’s multi-layered production and sister Karen’s timeless voice, the Carpenters set a new...

www.carpentersofficial.com

They were the #1 American recording artists of the 1970s,

The Carpenters, New Haven Natives - Connecticut Explored

By William Hosley (c) Connecticut Explored Inc. Fall 2008 Subscribe/Buy the Issue! The Carpenters, the phenomenally successful pop group of the 1970s, were two baby boomers who grew up in New Haven, attended public schools there during the 1950s and 1960s, and achieved as much fame and worldly...

www.ctexplored.org

The Carpenters were the #1 selling American music act of the 1970s.

The Carpenters - Hollywood Walk of Fame

Carpenters or The Carpenters were a vocal and instrumental duo, consisting of siblings Karen and Richard Carpenter. The Carpenters were the #1 selling American music act of the 1970s. Though often referred to by the public as “The Carpenters”, the duo’s official name on authorized recordings and...

walkoffame.com

How did this 'anecdote' come about?

If you're only counting 45 rpm singles, maybe (and only maybe). But factor in albums and that gets squishy fast.

Eagles, Steve Wonder----Carole King ("Tapestry" alone is 14 times Platinum, which tops "Close To You", "Carpenters", "A Song For You", "Now & Then" and "Horizon" combined).

 

[newvillefan]

If you're only counting 45 rpm singles, maybe (and only maybe). But factor in albums and that gets squishy fast.

That’s just splitting hairs. Some groups are known for being singles acts and some are album acts. Personally, it doesn’t irk me that they haven’t been inducted and it’s not something I’ve ever lay awake at night wondering about, but whether it’s based on total unit sales, cultural impact, longevity, innovation or whatever, the evidence is pretty overwhelming that they should have been inducted - or at the very least nominated - long before now. Sure, there are thousands of artists to choose from every time nominations come around, but how many from those thousands could tick the boxes that Carpenters can? A minuscule amount.