If you found the Keys To The Vault
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newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
newvillefan said:
I've often wondered if Phil Ramone had a part in any of this or if he was even aware of these being leaked. I also wonder if Richard realizes these were leaked over the internet, since it took him so long to finally get an official site on the net, it wouldn't suprise me if he didn't even know what was going on with these being leaked to the net. If he does know about it, I'm also suprised he hasn't tried to work his magic on some of these unreleased solo tracks, there are just a few that could be perfected with Richard's magic in the studio. The unreleased tracks are no secret at this point, I think every hardcore fan probably has them.
It seems like so long since a Carpenters release has occured, even a compliation with 1 or 2 newly mixed tracks would be awesome. I wonder if Richard will ever go back into the studio to do anything else with Carpenters music. Has the end finally happened? Will we never get anything else from Carpenters?
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I think the ulterior motive behind including 'Last One Singing The Blues' on the album was to try and make the fans believe that everything not included was still in a very rough, unmixed state and therefore unreleasable. This was a little taster of that.
What it failed to take into account was the fact that ALL of the unreleased tracks were already bootlegged and out there, proving that at least two of these tracks were finished ('Love Making Love To You' and 'Something's Missing') and that many of the others just needed sweetening or mixdown.
This therefore makes me think that Phil Ramone didn't know that we already HAD all the unreleased songs, at the time they finally put the solo album out in 1996.
What it failed to take into account was the fact that ALL of the unreleased tracks were already bootlegged and out there, proving that at least two of these tracks were finished ('Love Making Love To You' and 'Something's Missing') and that many of the others just needed sweetening or mixdown.
This therefore makes me think that Phil Ramone didn't know that we already HAD all the unreleased songs, at the time they finally put the solo album out in 1996.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
The solo album has always been stated it was released the way Karen intended. If that was the case, I wonder why The Last One Singing the Blues was a work lead and not finished. It says in the liner notes that the bonus track was one of several that may have been finished. This always confused me because I always thought that Karen considered her solo album finished. I mean I'm sure it was tweaked along the way several times but when she presented it to A&M, I was always under the impression that basically her solo album was done. So then are we to believe that Karen did not intend The Last One Singing the Blues to be included in her solo album? Or had she got the approval from A&M to go forward would she have finished Last One Singing the Blues to be included on her album? This is unclear. It makes us believe that the whole project was not really done and there was more work to be done but that doesn't seem right because pretty much Karen was ready for this to go forward by having the album cover done and doing her photo shoot for the album.
"The Last One Singing The Blues" was not a part of Karen's "finished" album. The album, as conceived and to be released during her lifetime, would have had 11 tracks - pretty standard for albums at that time. In fact, many were shaving that down to 10.
When Phil and Richard set about releasing the album in '96, Phil decided to go ahead and add one of the unfinished tracks. I'm guessing it's one that he favored but that Karen had already nixed from this particular album.
Obviously, we know that there was virtually another full album's worth of material that didn't make the final cut back in the day. Those of us who've heard those unfinished tracks are grateful to have at least had that privilege - all legal ramifications aside.
Harry
When Phil and Richard set about releasing the album in '96, Phil decided to go ahead and add one of the unfinished tracks. I'm guessing it's one that he favored but that Karen had already nixed from this particular album.
Obviously, we know that there was virtually another full album's worth of material that didn't make the final cut back in the day. Those of us who've heard those unfinished tracks are grateful to have at least had that privilege - all legal ramifications aside.
Harry
close2u
Randy Schmidt
Someone had the outtakes BEFORE the solo album was released in 1996??? I knew a lot of people had the 11 original tracks. I had them on cassette, but just about a year before they were officially released. I was pretty sure the outtakes (incl. "Love Making Love," etc.) weren't out in anyone's hands until around 1998-1999. Did anyone here have all 21 songs before the 1996 release?
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I think it's also true that the extra track was not intended for the album, but added as an afterthought. The liner notes do say 'it deserves to be heard, in its entirety, as originally delivered...plus one bonus track'.
What has always confused me is this line in Phil Ramone's liner notes:
'Karen and the rest of us who worked on this project understood the decision to wait on the release.'
What does he mean by that? Wait until 1980 as opposed to 1979? Or wait until some considerable time after 1980 for its release? Does he mean they realised disco was over and they'd missed the boat? To me, he's referring to the A&M playback, where it was felt the existing material wasn't strong enough and they wanted her to go back and do more material.
The key word in his comment is 'wait'. He makes it sound like they ALL agreed, Karen included, that it was merely delayed, not cancelled. Yet according to Richard, it was Karen who made the decision to shelve this album in May 1980. If it was in fact shelved, Phil's comment makes it sound like that decision was taken out of her hands.
In 1982, during Karen's lifetime, the fanclub was asked the question...
'Q. Will Karen ever release her solo album? A. Probably not.
By 1984, the same question was asked again:
Q. Will Karen's solo album ever be released? A. No.
Both answers are in direct contradiction to Phil's comment many years later. This is all very strange. I'm still convinced, as with a lot of aspects of their story, that there was much more going on behind the scenes than we know. I still think it's Richard who vetoed this album, despite the people around him who deny it.
What has always confused me is this line in Phil Ramone's liner notes:
'Karen and the rest of us who worked on this project understood the decision to wait on the release.'
What does he mean by that? Wait until 1980 as opposed to 1979? Or wait until some considerable time after 1980 for its release? Does he mean they realised disco was over and they'd missed the boat? To me, he's referring to the A&M playback, where it was felt the existing material wasn't strong enough and they wanted her to go back and do more material.
The key word in his comment is 'wait'. He makes it sound like they ALL agreed, Karen included, that it was merely delayed, not cancelled. Yet according to Richard, it was Karen who made the decision to shelve this album in May 1980. If it was in fact shelved, Phil's comment makes it sound like that decision was taken out of her hands.
In 1982, during Karen's lifetime, the fanclub was asked the question...
'Q. Will Karen ever release her solo album? A. Probably not.
By 1984, the same question was asked again:
Q. Will Karen's solo album ever be released? A. No.
Both answers are in direct contradiction to Phil's comment many years later. This is all very strange. I'm still convinced, as with a lot of aspects of their story, that there was much more going on behind the scenes than we know. I still think it's Richard who vetoed this album, despite the people around him who deny it.
People, people, people...
Haven't you ever been in an argument with someone over something you're both passionate about? And one of you gives in, just to keep the peace?
Don't you think that's what happened back in 79-80? Richard was probably adament that Karen's album not be released - because he was now "all better" and could do "Carpenters" stuff again. Karen, though deep down, probably wanted her album released, but in the interest of familial amity, relented and then "decided" to shelve the album.
That surely is the most likely scenario here.
Harry
Haven't you ever been in an argument with someone over something you're both passionate about? And one of you gives in, just to keep the peace?
Don't you think that's what happened back in 79-80? Richard was probably adament that Karen's album not be released - because he was now "all better" and could do "Carpenters" stuff again. Karen, though deep down, probably wanted her album released, but in the interest of familial amity, relented and then "decided" to shelve the album.
That surely is the most likely scenario here.
Harry
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Harry said:
For sure Harry, but I was just exploring the contradictions that we're faced with in the messages we get from various sources close to them. We're not talking here about a simple family argument. This was half a million dollars of Karen's money and a year of her time.
It's a shame in one way that they were family, because with a voice like that, she could have broken away from any other partner and who knows what might have been.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
'Karen and the rest of us who worked on this project understood the decision to wait on the release.'
What I get out of that is Karen, Phil, the band and all others in the studio...It was those folks that understood the reason to shelve it due to Richard being better at that point and he was ready to move on to Carpenters. They probably understood this was causing some kind of tension between the duo. I agree that had they not been a duo, it would have been much easier for Karen to have branched out and truly gone solo. Look at all the artists that have done similar things. Although I still think it could have been possible for them to work separetly but still be together, just as Karen said these very words on GMA show, she was trying to stress a point that they were 2 professionals in their own right and they could work separately musically but still be together. Look at Andrea Corr, she broke away to make her solo career away from The Corrs and yet I have a feeling The Corrs will probably put out another album again in the future, it's not over for them. Karen tried to stress in the tell tale interview that Richard was so brilliant as a composer and arranger that she felt he should be scoring films. So it could have been possible they could have seeked other venues yet still be together. Why did 1 career have to stop just to start another? I guess things were different back then, maybe it was A&M that thought they needed to be putting out more hits to save the duo? Or maybe Richard? I don't know but I don't think they needed saving, they were already a well known and established act.
What I get out of that is Karen, Phil, the band and all others in the studio...It was those folks that understood the reason to shelve it due to Richard being better at that point and he was ready to move on to Carpenters. They probably understood this was causing some kind of tension between the duo. I agree that had they not been a duo, it would have been much easier for Karen to have branched out and truly gone solo. Look at all the artists that have done similar things. Although I still think it could have been possible for them to work separetly but still be together, just as Karen said these very words on GMA show, she was trying to stress a point that they were 2 professionals in their own right and they could work separately musically but still be together. Look at Andrea Corr, she broke away to make her solo career away from The Corrs and yet I have a feeling The Corrs will probably put out another album again in the future, it's not over for them. Karen tried to stress in the tell tale interview that Richard was so brilliant as a composer and arranger that she felt he should be scoring films. So it could have been possible they could have seeked other venues yet still be together. Why did 1 career have to stop just to start another? I guess things were different back then, maybe it was A&M that thought they needed to be putting out more hits to save the duo? Or maybe Richard? I don't know but I don't think they needed saving, they were already a well known and established act.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Chris-An Ordinary Fool said:
That's true Chris, but he seemed absolutely resistant to such a suggestion in that interview, despite Karen saying how brilliant he would be at that. And that was on TV, so we don't even know what kind of conversations the two of them had away in private.
To me, he just didn't seem to want to entertain the notion, because he was ready to resume his own path with the duo. In that respect sometimes I think he was a bit selfish, to have put his own desire against what Karen might have done with her solo album.
Don't forget that the name brand "Carpenters" happened to be a cash cow for the A&M label in prior years. No-one wanted to damage whatever reputation they already had. A "risky" venture into disco territory by half of the duo wouldn't have been looked on to kindly.
Surely Richard's argument that he was all better now and could once again work some "Carpenters" magic was viewed as a more favorable path for everyone to take. No-one of course had any inkling that Karen would be gone in a skant few years. There was always that infinite amount of time in the future to play with solo projects.
As for Andrea Corr, yes, she put out her own album, and other than a little buzz in Spain, went absolutely nowhere.
Harry
Surely Richard's argument that he was all better now and could once again work some "Carpenters" magic was viewed as a more favorable path for everyone to take. No-one of course had any inkling that Karen would be gone in a skant few years. There was always that infinite amount of time in the future to play with solo projects.
As for Andrea Corr, yes, she put out her own album, and other than a little buzz in Spain, went absolutely nowhere.
Harry
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
I wonder why A&M couldn't have appeased Karen in the respect of saying lets not release this now because Richard is ready and we want to see Carpenters get going again, but then tell Karen why don't we agree that once MIA is released we can all agree that if Karen wants to release something on her own after the duo gets back together than whatever she chooses to release we will stand behind her. At least this gives her hope and options that after the duo gets back together that the clause would allow her to go into a different venue yet still be part of the Carpenters. It was obvious at this point that she got a taste of recording on her own, living it up in NY and just experiencing a whole new life in general. I could image the possibilities going through her head. It just seems that the way it was all portrayed in interviews from Phil and the Coleman book that doing it this way gave Karen only 1 choice and that choice was no solo career.
SakuraSYayoi
Active Member
Karen must have wanted her album released, but she couldn't continue to work on her solo album, when Richard was ready to work again. Her solo album was to be finished before he came back.
Karen's own words were something like these;
The reason that it(solo album) didn't come out, because it wasn't finished when Richard and I decided to go back to work.So I just pushed it aside, because I wanted to go back to work as the Carpenters.
(Correct me, if you have the interview. Thanks.)
The interviewer did interview with Richard in the middle of '90s at radio station studio. I haven't heard it yet, only read Japanese book that the interviewer wrote. While Richard was talking about Karen in studio with Richard after Thanksgiving of 1982, Richard said her solo album couldn't be released because of such a condition of hers, like she had to lay down at sofa at eight in the evening.
Was there a plan to release her solo album in '83?
Does anyone have the audio interview?
Sakura
Karen's own words were something like these;
The reason that it(solo album) didn't come out, because it wasn't finished when Richard and I decided to go back to work.So I just pushed it aside, because I wanted to go back to work as the Carpenters.
(Correct me, if you have the interview. Thanks.)
The interviewer did interview with Richard in the middle of '90s at radio station studio. I haven't heard it yet, only read Japanese book that the interviewer wrote. While Richard was talking about Karen in studio with Richard after Thanksgiving of 1982, Richard said her solo album couldn't be released because of such a condition of hers, like she had to lay down at sofa at eight in the evening.
Was there a plan to release her solo album in '83?
Does anyone have the audio interview?
Sakura
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
SakuraSYayoi
Active Member
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
SakuraSYayoi
Active Member
Geographer
Well-Known Member
As usual with these kinds of discussions, there are a few glaring omissions. From what I understand, the solo project, when played back for the A&M execs was hugely underwhelming. I think the expectation was that the "team" of Karen and Phil were going to produce an epic, milestone album that would cement Karen's status as the greatest female voice of all time. What they got was a semi-trendy, un-inspirational "pop" record that was just "okay."
Now, when the expectation was not met, there are several things going on here. Professionally, because the project did not live up to the "hype" already generated, releasing the album may have actually damaged Karen's, and Carpenter's, reputation once and for all. It could have been the nail in the coffin of an already waning career. Personally, though, for Karen (being the perfectionist), it had to be and was very difficult because the perception is that she "failed."
Finally, I think we have a tendency to drift into playing the "blame game" and point fingers at Richard eluding that he is an egomaniac plagued by some sort of unhealthy jealousy at Karen's expense. In hindsight, his opinion on the album, in my opinion, was correct. The album took the wrong direction, Karen sang too much in her higher register, and the material was too suggestive, trendy, and substandard instead of being timeless as much of the Carpenters material was. I think it was a hard decision but the appropriate one for the time.
Now, isn't it time to lock this thread as the discussion is not about "keys to the vault" anymore, but a rehash of the same discussion had many, many, times before in a number of previous threads?
Now, when the expectation was not met, there are several things going on here. Professionally, because the project did not live up to the "hype" already generated, releasing the album may have actually damaged Karen's, and Carpenter's, reputation once and for all. It could have been the nail in the coffin of an already waning career. Personally, though, for Karen (being the perfectionist), it had to be and was very difficult because the perception is that she "failed."
Finally, I think we have a tendency to drift into playing the "blame game" and point fingers at Richard eluding that he is an egomaniac plagued by some sort of unhealthy jealousy at Karen's expense. In hindsight, his opinion on the album, in my opinion, was correct. The album took the wrong direction, Karen sang too much in her higher register, and the material was too suggestive, trendy, and substandard instead of being timeless as much of the Carpenters material was. I think it was a hard decision but the appropriate one for the time.
Now, isn't it time to lock this thread as the discussion is not about "keys to the vault" anymore, but a rehash of the same discussion had many, many, times before in a number of previous threads?
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Geographer said:
Ok that's your point of view Shannon, but it's no reason to lock a thread surely? This is a discussion forum after all and discussions veer from the origin to other related areas, as I believe this is. I personally think A&M made the wrong decision in cancelling the album too, and I think she should have gone elsewhere to put it out, but that's just my opinion too
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