RICHARD : VILLAIN TO ANTI CHRIST ......

[manofsteel1979]

Understandable.Mike.I (and others) got carried away.That's how my posts here started,defending Richard's role in The Carpenter's legacy,then it somehow got back into the old arguments about,well,you know.So from here on,I will try to keep it focused on Richard.Let me say one thing.As much as we shower love and adoration on Karen,let's not forget this simple fact;if it were not for Richard Carpenter's talents as a musician,and then recognizing and fostering those talents in her,we likely would have never had Karen's voice,or the hundreds of great songs.Pop music would have been so much poorer if not for BOTH Karen & Richard Carpenter.We can argue about solo albums,eating disorders,who said what to who when etc. until the heat death of the universe.One thing that can't be argued is the importance of Richard Carpenter to the music of the last 40 years.We are all richer for having him on this planet of ours.

 

[richard_sloat]

That I agree totally with, you're right. Had Richard not been a musician, Karen would just have never made her way into music. You may know someone who has a great voice in your family, your neighbourhood, your work... and they don't happen to be singers!! That would be true for Karen as well.

 

[manofsteel1979]

I just recently listened to both of Richard's solo CD's.While the later one he did was so so,I find myself really liking "Time" a lot.It's not the same without Karen,but it is still good stuff,and actually better than "Made in America" in terms of diversity.His voice is fine when he can stay away from being too nasal,and his production ability was in fine form.I really wish he would have recorded more stuff like that in the 80's & 90's,rather than spending copious amounts of time remixing their catalog for the umpteenth time.Maybe it's because he feels a need to be closer to Karen by doing so,but I just feel he could be doing so much more.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I just think Richard's voice has the power of water vapor. It touches a word and then vanishes. It's just so darned "fey." It didn't start out that way. His leads on the earlier Carpenter stuff wasn't bad at all. I know he's a smoker so, perhaps, his habit killed off his power.

Ed

 

[manofsteel1979]

I just think Richard's voice has the power of water vapor. It touches a word and then vanishes. It's just so darned "fey." It didn't start out that way. His leads on the earlier Carpenter stuff wasn't bad at all. I know he's a smoker so, perhaps, his habit killed off his power.

Ed

Probably so.Also,age plays a role as well.I also liked his early leads on CARPENTERS stuff."I Kept on loving you" from the "Close to You" LP was particularly strong.It was single material.Also,the vocals he did on The oldies medley on "Now and Then" were also very good.

 

[KTFan]

I think that the true tragedy is probably Richard's. He didn't just lose his sister and business partner -- he was blamed for her loss. Obviously he was traumatized by her death; his career likely fell apart afterwards because he never really recovered. This guy was, by all accounts, groomed for greatness. Then his sister has the rarer, more noticeable gift -- and dies, shockingly young. And the public turns on him and declares that she was really the main talent in the duo, anyway. I think all that, plus dealing with his parents' grief -- they lived quite a while after KC died -- would do most people in. Plus, he couldn't really complain: "Hey, my sister self-destructed and now my career is in the toilet." He's in a really impossible position and I think it must be terrible, as the years pass, to speculate about all the what-ifs and to confront both his loss and his own failure to move on, career-wise.
and on top of that: everything I dislike about the Carpenters' sound -- the overuse of the flute and oboe, the drippy choir backgrounds -- he's responsible for, as well as the good stuff. Unfortunately, history has left him holding the bag. It must make a control freak like RC feel completely impotent and unfairly/unjustly treated.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I wouldn't say his career "fell apart;" it's more like when Maurice Gibb died, it was the end of the Bee Gees right there. You can't really have an act called Carpenters when there's only one Carpenter and the lead singer is gone.

Having said that, I think it's very likely that the Carpenters' hit-making days were over anyway, for the most part, when Karen died. They've probably sold millions and millions more records since her passing than they would have otherwise, and part of the reason for that is the continued appearance of new packages.

Whether you like the remixes or not, fans should be thankful to Richard -- if not for him, the catalog would probably have been deleted long ago and this board wouldn't really have much to talk about.

 

[Harry]

I just think Richard's voice has the power of water vapor. It touches a word and then vanishes. It's just so darned "fey." It didn't start out that way. His leads on the earlier Carpenter stuff wasn't bad at all. I know he's a smoker so, perhaps, his habit killed off his power.

Ed

I'm always amazed when I witness people criticizing Richard for his voice, of all things.

Here, we live in a world where an over-rated foghorn like Rod Stewart not only survives, but thrives. This guy's voice is akin to fingernails on a chalkboard to me, yet year after year his records get played on the radio in all formats as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread,

Richard's voice is not only pleasant, but he's always on pitch, harmonizes well, and with his falsetto has a rather large range. I think that had he performed the right material, he could have at the very least had a hit record or two.

It's a shame he didn't pick himself up after TIME and give it another serious "go" and attempt to try again.

Harry

 

[manofsteel1979]

I just think Richard's voice has the power of water vapor. It touches a word and then vanishes. It's just so darned "fey." It didn't start out that way. His leads on the earlier Carpenter stuff wasn't bad at all. I know he's a smoker so, perhaps, his habit killed off his power.

Ed

I'm always amazed when I witness people criticizing Richard for his voice, of all things.

Here, we live in a world where an over-rated foghorn like Rod Stewart not only survives, but thrives. This guy's voice is akin to fingernails on a chalkboard to me, yet year after year his records get played on the radio in all formats as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread,

Richard's voice is not only pleasant, but he's always on pitch, harmonizes well, and with his falsetto has a rather large range. I think that had he performed the right material, he could have at the very least had a hit record or two.

It's a shame he didn't pick himself up after TIME and give it another serious "go" and attempt to try again.

Harry

I never quite got the appeal of Rod Stewart either,although he has done a handful of songs I liked (most of which is his 70s stuff). The standards albums are WAY overrated,yet they have sold incredibly well and led to a career Renaissance for him after he was written off.One could only imagine though,had that horrible day in 1983 not taken place,what could have happened if The Carpenters in the late 1990's,early 2000s had done their own standards albums instead.Much like Christmas music,Standards were MADE for the Carpenters!It could have lead to a career boost for Karen and Rich going into this decade,I feel.Maybe not a return to the days of "Close to You" and all that, but it would have caused everyone to sit up and take notice again.Heck,Richard himself could have gotten together with other singers like Petula Clark,Dionne Warwick,Olivia Newton-John,etc and done his own standards albums.If RC did them now,It wouldn't make much impact,because by now everyone and their mother has gone the standards route thanks to Mr.Stewart.However if he had started the trend himself...who knows what could have happened.

 

[manofsteel1979]

I wouldn't say his career "fell apart;" it's more like when Maurice Gibb died, it was the end of the Bee Gees right there. You can't really have an act called Carpenters when there's only one Carpenter and the lead singer is gone.

Having said that, I think it's very likely that the Carpenters' hit-making days were over anyway, for the most part, when Karen died. They've probably sold millions and millions more records since her passing than they would have otherwise, and part of the reason for that is the continued appearance of new packages.

Whether you like the remixes or not, fans should be thankful to Richard -- if not for him, the catalog would probably have been deleted long ago and this board wouldn't really have much to talk about.

Absolutely right! I am one of those fans who "discovered" the Carpenters through the remixes.While I now have come to prefer the original singles and album mixes,I will always hold "GOLD" in high esteem.It opened up a world of great music I would have other wise have dismissed or otherwise would have not been aware of.The fact that 40 YEARS LATER we are still talking about the Carpenters is a testament to Richard's efforts to keep their music alive.That's something to be praised,NOT scorned.

 

[richard_sloat]

Here, we live in a world where an over-rated foghorn like Rod Stewart not only survives, but thrives. This guy's voice is akin to fingernails on a chalkboard to me, yet year after year his records get played on the radio in all formats as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread,

Richard's voice is not only pleasant, but he's always on pitch, harmonizes well, and with his falsetto has a rather large range.

This is a matter of taste and it's impossible to reach a conclusion on a matter like this. I haven't heard Rod Stewart's voice since quite a few years ago, when he released that first standards album, but I used to like it. In fact his song Lost in you from the 80's is one of my favorites. Mama enjoys his voice too so maybe it's genetic, lol.

Richard's voice just doesn't do anything for me, I don't find it specially pleasant or anything. Though I like his tracks on the Carpenters records, mainly because he sings in the very same key I sing!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I think having Richard's voice more in the forefront is part of what makes the first few Carpenters albums so appealing to me. When Karen assumed 100% of the lead vocals, the albums lost a lot of their "fun" and variety of sounds.

I love Karen's voice of course, but for me it was the little "breaks" in the program, like "Love is Surrender" and "Piano Picker" and "Intermission" and "I Kept on Loving You" that made those albums a more interesting listen than if they had been nothing but love ballads.

 

[manofsteel1979]

I think having Richard's voice more in the forefront is part of what makes the first few Carpenters albums so appealing to me. When Karen assumed 100% of the lead vocals, the albums lost a lot of their "fun" and variety of sounds.

I love Karen's voice of course, but for me it was the little "breaks" in the program, like "Love is Surrender" and "Piano Picker" and "Intermission" and "I Kept on Loving You" that made those albums a more interesting listen than if they had been nothing but love ballads.

You know,I never really thought about it in those terms,but your correct.Also,I don't think it's an accident that the rock leanings of the Carps all but disappeared around the time Karen was pushed towards the front as the only lead vocalist of the group,Which was around 74.I've gotten into arguments with some of my friends over the fact that The Carpenters WERE a rock group,particularly The first four albums.I think that was primarily because of Richard.I wonder if the push to put Karen out in front was because A&M wanted it ,or if Richard started to lose some faith in his own abilities as a singer and started to push the group more into MOR/adult contemporary sect of things because it fit Karen better in his mind? Maybe a bit of both? Anyhow,it was a mistake for a myriad of reasons.I think The Carpenters best days were when they were truly a duo,rather than "Karen and the guy that plays piano for her".Plus,not to bring in the "A" word-but all that extra pressure of being the "Star" probably did not help KC's state of mind.For the first three years or so,It had used to be both Rich and Karen sharing the burden of being the stars.Now it started to fall squarely on her in the public's mind.That had to be tough for both of them.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I just think Richard's voice has the power of water vapor. It touches a word and then vanishes. It's just so darned "fey." It didn't start out that way. His leads on the earlier Carpenter stuff wasn't bad at all. I know he's a smoker so, perhaps, his habit killed off his power.

Ed

I'm always amazed when I witness people criticizing Richard for his voice, of all things.

Here, we live in a world where an over-rated foghorn like Rod Stewart not only survives, but thrives. This guy's voice is akin to fingernails on a chalkboard to me, yet year after year his records get played on the radio in all formats as if he were the greatest thing since sliced bread,

Richard's voice is not only pleasant, but he's always on pitch, harmonizes well, and with his falsetto has a rather large range. I think that had he performed the right material, he could have at the very least had a hit record or two.

It's a shame he didn't pick himself up after TIME and give it another serious "go" and attempt to try again.

Harry

With all due respect, I don't know how you can be amazed. His lead has become awful. I disagree that his lead vocal is pleasant in the least bit. I find it brittle and, airy, and emotionless. He is a born background vocalist. Background singing does, in fact, take skill so that's nothing to scoff at.

For my part, I'm glad he didn't attempt another vocal album. The first stiffed badly and there's no doubt in my mind that another of it's kind would have too. More likely, A&M wouldn't have allowed him to release another like that. He's have done much better doing a "Quincy Jones" record - one where he passes the lead vocals to others.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I think having Richard's voice more in the forefront is part of what makes the first few Carpenters albums so appealing to me. When Karen assumed 100% of the lead vocals, the albums lost a lot of their "fun" and variety of sounds.

I love Karen's voice of course, but for me it was the little "breaks" in the program, like "Love is Surrender" and "Piano Picker" and "Intermission" and "I Kept on Loving You" that made those albums a more interesting listen than if they had been nothing but love ballads.

Agreed. At that point, Richard had a decent lead and, when "doubled," it could carry some of the load convincingly. I think it made things interesting too. If they were making records now, it certainly wouldn't though for reasons I've stated elsewhere.

Ed

 

[Harry]

Different strokes...

I'll stand by my assessment and you'll likely stand by yours. That's why we have these discussion boards.

As Mike pointed out - and I agree heartily - the first few Carpenters albums have a variety quality about them - they were a duo - and having Richard do some of the leads made the albums much more enjoyable to me.

By the time it was all Karen, and all ballads, all the time, they became to homogeneous - too much the same. I think that's really why everyone loves the Christmas album so much. It's got that variety of sound that they'd lost in their main studio albums.

Harry

 

[goodjeans]

^^^well said Harry.

 

[manofsteel1979]

By the time it was all Karen, and all ballads, all the time, they became to homogeneous - too much the same. I think that's really why everyone loves the Christmas album so much. It's got that variety of sound that they'd lost in their main studio albums.

Harry

I think that's true.However,I find it ironic to the topic we are discussing that in recent years,Richard has called "Christmas Portrait" Karen's first solo album,and gives most of the credit of the success of that record to her and Peter Knight.

 

[Dave]

...He'd have done much better doing a "Quincy Jones" record - one where he passes the lead vocals to others...

I think that would be a good idea, too... However, to me, there's the question of material...

Rehashing "Old 'Carps songs", would be my guess, if Richard couldn't cobble together, something that would amount to "another Time"...



Dave

 

[manofsteel1979]

[



Rehashing "Old 'Carps songs", would be my guess, if Richard couldn't cobble together, something that would amount to "another Time"...



Dave[/quote] I wouldn't mind seeing him do an album like that,where he gets guest vocalists come on and sing instead of him,but I would rather see new material ,with maybe a Carps song for good measure.An entire album of Carpenters remakes would only draw comparisons to the originals.No matter the talent he would get for such a project,no one can touch Karen's vocal.The listener would probably be saying "yeah,that's a nice version of ____________,but it still isn't as good as Karen." That would kind of make such a project pointless.Also,imagine the sect of fandom that hates the idea of Richard's remixes.They would crucify him if he would even THINK of remaking Carpenters classics with other singers,male or female.

 

[richard_sloat]

I think that's really why everyone loves the Christmas album so much.

Count me out... I SO love Karen in mostly every track she recorded for those records but I'm SO NOT into Christmas music. The sole reason I listen to them is because of her tracks and even some of them I listen to only because it is her singing. Can't picture myself listening to things like Winter wonderland, Sleigh ride, etc, by anyone else.

 

[richard_sloat]

Also,imagine the sect of fandom that hates the idea of Richard's remixes.They would crucify him if he would even THINK of remaking Carpenters classics with other singers,male or female.

Oh, I do love the idea... I wouldn't crucify him at all unless he produced hip hop versions or anything like that.

 

[Dave]

Well, with the way the music industry's going, I sure hope Hip-Hop isn't all that there's left to turn to...

Anything "original" Richard can't come up with in terms of "real music", I sure hope for a collaboration with whatever great songwriters there are left, then...

Otherwise, yeh, the long-awaited Christmas album... (Although I can't sit through Christmas music either... Gimme my Bobby Goldsboro "(Look Around You) It's Christmas Time" or my white-labeled non-LP '45' treasure (which kicked off my interest & commitment in Bobby!) "A Christmas Wish"...)

Has the time finally come?



Dave

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

With all due respect, I find the idea of Richard gathering other singers to do an album of Carpenters tunes positively odious. The songs have been done...and done well. I was thinking in terms of the Quincy Jones approach - getting the songs, producing, and playing. Leave the singing to people who can really do it. How he hasn't had a gigantic career as a producer for other acts is just strange to me.

Ed

 

[Geographer]

I would be thrilled just to have new material by Richard, whether he sings lead, has guest vocalists, or just instrumentals. I think he needs to move on from rehashing and remixing the same old songs. I love Richard's production and arrangements as much as I love Karen's voice. Just because we don't have Karen's voice to produce anything new doesn't mean we don't have Richard's talents. How sad it will be when Richard goes to his final reward and we all sit here and discuss how sad it is that he didn't produce more albums when he was alive.