Vocal Din?

[Brasil_Nut]

Fellow Mendes Fans:

I know we've discussed this before, but I have to bring it up again...

Has anyone heard the din of voices that appear as Sergio begins
his piano solo on Going Out Of My Head? Although brief, it's there.
The reason I ask is because I was listening to Herb Alpert Presents
yesterday when the "din" became overwhelming; very distinct.

I've always wondered if this was something added to the song. Also
wonder if it has something to do with the studio -- a glitch -- someone
opened a door during recording? Several possibilites.

Anyone heard this? Am I imagining things?? Should the Brasil Nut get his ears cleaned??? By the way...two people who were
in the room with me heard the "din" as well. Hmmm...

Jon

 

[seashorepiano]

Jon, very interesting point you brought up. I will have to listen closely the next time I put the vinyl on (pretty good condition, plays well and I'll probably catch the din this time).

If I may offer a few observations, it could be very well that someone opened a door to the studio during the recording. If I remember the layout of some studios I know about, however, the only door in the recording room would lead directly into the producer's booth/console room. That said, I would think, if someone opened the door during such an important moment when the tapes were running, the producer saw him and he/she lost his/her job pretty quickly because of it!

I know that several of the Mendes A&M albums had sweetening sessions, particularly "Look Around." Although the best editors and engineers in the business were over at the studio, they're only human like us all, and might have overdubbed some wrong material or cut completely inadvertently. Maybe one of the machines in the studio, or the tape players, caused irreperable tape damage for "Goin' Out of My Head." We all know of the CD reissues of classic albums that speak of "indelible noise" on certain tracks. Case in point, Walter Wanderley's "Rain Forest" album: on tracks 2 and 4, tape damage was present and couldn't be removed in the CD remastering process without warping the segment of the track altogether.

I feel like I'm starting to ramble on now, but in short all I can attribute--from my feeble knowledge of recording mechanics--the din to is a mistake in the recording that couldn't be corrected. Everybody plays the wrong notes once in a while.

 

[JMK]

Jon, I just went and listened to the CD with headphones and I don't hear any talking--are you hearing people talk? I very clearly hear backup "oohs" at the beginning of the piano solo. These "oohs" are close-harmony voicings of a Gm7 to Gmaj7 and I do hear a little distortion right at the change from minor to major. Could that possibly be what you're hearing?

 

[JMK]

P.S. Remember that "those who were there" are quite clear that Sergio recorded all the rhythm tracks first (with occasional "scratch" vocals) and later had the vocalists come in to do their parts, so I can't imagine them not hearing talking during the playback after the rhythm section was recorded.

 

[Rudy]

Has anyone heard the din of voices that appear as Sergio begins his piano solo on Going Out Of My Head? Although brief, it's there. The reason I ask is because I was listening to Herb Alpert Presents yesterday when the "din" became overwhelming; very distinct.

I don't have my LP handy right now--which studio was it recorded at? It was probably Sunset or Gold Star (although I doubt it was the latter--it sounds too clean to be Gold Star). Since Sergio's piano seemed to be mic'ed distant on this recording, it could be they had to turn it up in the mix, like they did at the beginning of "One Note Samba" (where you hear the additional tape hiss). If that's the case, it could be something as simple as "bleed-through" from the other instruments.

 

[Brasil_Nut]

P.S. Remember that "those who were there" are quite clear that Sergio recorded all the rhythm tracks first (with occasional "scratch" vocals) and later had the vocalists come in to do their parts, so I can't imagine them not hearing talking during the playback after the rhythm section was recorded.

Jeff:

You're 100% correct about Sergio recording the rhythm tracks first; this according to Janis. As she said in a December 2003 e-mail regarding vocal tracks:

"Lani and I rehearsed on a daily basis with the rest of the guys. Lani's lead was usually the first thing laid down."

So, you're right. They likely would have heard the "din" I associate with the track.

What initially brought this up was a video of Brasil '66 performing "Going Out Of My Head". I was watching it with Jenny, a family friend. When it came to Sergio's solo, Jenny looked up and said, "Are those people talking...the din of voices?"

And once again, like we discussed here before, I started thinking about it.

But, I'm with you, Jeff. You would certainly think that Sergio, Herb or the engineers would have heard this on playback. Then again, although I don't recall which studio was used to record the first album, I know it wasn't LaBrea, as they didn't move into that facility until some time later. Equinox and Look Around were recorded at Western and Sunset Sound.

As for the incredible engineering of the time, Janis says:

"Listening to the recording technology used at Western and Sunset Sound, I am struck again by the depth of sound and resonance that the engineers were able to command. Those old Neve boards and that 2" tape really got warm results."

I couldn't agree with her more!

Thanks everyone for your input!

Jon

 

[Harry]

OK, so Jon and his guests are hearing voices. Hmmmm.....

Seriously, I just checked out "Going Out Of My Head" on both the original Japanese CD and on my homemade-from-MFSL disc looking for these mysterious voices, or "vocal din" as you've named the phenomenon here. I don't hear anything sounding like that anywhere near the piano solo, or anywhere else in the song, for that matter. Perhaps if you gave us a track timing point we could better pinpoint what it is you're hearing.

I DO of course hear the obvious tape pop/dropout on Lani's word "...heart" at the 1:30 point in the song. That's there in every version from day one.

And I hear some vocal "chatter" or talking in "Daytripper" as the piano solo quiets down getting ready for the big vocal finale. It sounds like Sergio maybe giving directions to the group or something like that.

Harry
...listening for the voices...

 

[Rudy]

OK, I checked: I recalled that Bruce Botnick (!) did the engineering for this album (he's more famous for doing LPs of The Doors), and it was recorded at Sunset Sound, as I thought.

 

[Aqua do Brasil]

OK, I checked: I recalled that Bruce Botnick (!) did the engineering for this album (he's more famous for doing LPs of The Doors), and it was recorded at Sunset Sound, as I thought.

I guess, correct me if i'm wrong, BONES HOWE did the engineering on the HAP album. Maybe Bruce Botnick was also involved, he was very young at the time, in his teens. I dont think it was Sunset, the Tutti Camarata owned recording facility at the time.

Interesting note: Tutti Camarata worked many years for the Disney Cy. as musical director and arranger for Disneys movie scores and with teen Disney starlet singer Annette Funicello.
Ron Disney (the brother) provided Tutti Camarata with financiel support to open his own recording studio Sunset with a young Bruce Botnick behind the buttons.

As from my personal historic recording industry sources Bones Howes used frequently Western for 60s popgroups such as The Association and The Fifth Dimension as an engineer and producer.
It must be Western Recorders, later Western United Recording (Nowdays, Ocean Way Recorders: owned by Alan Sides).

All the best,
Aqua do Brasil

 

[JMK]

I again think what you are hearing are the backup vocals, which do exhibit a bit of distortion behind the first phrase of the piano solo, which indeed may have come from boosting levels to get the piano out in front of the mix. Something that I find amazing on this album is Lani's phrasing--you would almost think at times that they simply doubled one vocal track to give the "two girl" sound--but there are brief moments when her phrasing or intonation isn't quite together which leads me to believe she recorded two vocal tracks. This was one of the things that impressed me even when I was a kid listening to B66 for the first time--I couldn't "get" how two women could sound like one voice. Now we know why!!

 

[Harry]

OK, I checked: I recalled that Bruce Botnick (!) did the engineering for this album (he's more famous for doing LPs of The Doors), and it was recorded at Sunset Sound, as I thought.

I guess, correct me if i'm wrong, BONES HOWE did the engineering on the HAP album. Maybe Bruce Botnick was also involved, he was very young at the time, in his teens. I dont think it was Sunset, the Tutti Camarata owned recording facility at the time.

It's printed right on the back cover! ENGINEERED BY BRUCE BOTNICK, SUNSET SOUND.

Consider yourself corrected!

Harry
...reading the credits, online...

 

[JMK]

I have always remembered seeing Bones' name on the HAP album, too--(I don't have an LP version anymore)--isn't it there somewhere? I remember this because when "Love Music" came out, I distinctly recall thinking "He's back with Bones again."

 

[Harry]

There is no mention of Bones Howe on HERB ALPERT PRESENTS, EQUINOX, LOOK AROUND, or FOOL ON THE HILL, however...

There is a credit on GREATEST HITS attributing "Mas Que Nada" to Bones Howe. Other tracks from HAP are credited to Bruce Botnick on the GREATEST HITS album.

Harry
...looking it up, online...

 

[JMK]

Thanks for looking that up, Harry--I bet I'm remembering the Greatest Hits credit.

 

[Cortnee]

Sorry Brasil Nut, you must be hearing things. I don't hear any voices during Going Out Of My Head. I DO however hear talking during Daytripper, Pais Tropical, & Festa. Does anyone hear coughing during Bim Bom? I also hear a woman gasping during the instrumental break of Casa Forte in addition to hear a lady's giggle at the beginning of Upa Neguinho. It must be Lani

 

[seashorepiano]

I think we all, given our acuteness (or lack thereof) of hearing, can pick up different things at different times. If we really sit back, meditate on the music or just really concentrate, we all might hear different things. None of us is 'crazy' for it.

 

[Rudy]

I tend to go by what's printed on the album for credits, but as we find out later on, the musician or engineering credits were often incorrect. Carol Kaye, who was at some of these sessions, has mentioned the issues with credits more than a few times on her own website as well as at Spectropop.

I can use Chris Montez's first album with A&M as an example--songs were recorded at a total of three different studios. The album cover only says it was "engineered" by Larry Levine at Gold Star. And yet, I find out recently, most of the tracks were actually recorded at Sunset. "Call Me" was recorded at RCA with vocal and clapping overdubs at Gold Star. "The More I See You" was recorded at Gold Star with vocal overdubs at Sunset. It matches up, too--since Gold Star had 3-channel back during that era, they likely did a "bounce" in order to create an empty track for Montez's vocal part...notice the increased tape hiss on this song in comparison to the others. "Call Me" is also slightly "futzy" sounding--you can tell it wasn't recorded the same as the other album tracks, which are all consistent in sound quality.

 

[Brasil_Nut]

Sorry Brasil Nut, you must be hearing things. I don't hear any voices during Going Out Of My Head.

Jennifer, my Mother and myself all heard this. We must all be hearing things. I thought perhaps it had something to do with the video, but that doesn't hold water. I recall hearing it on reel-to-reel, 8-track and Lp versions as well -- not to mention the CD.

I DO however hear talking during Daytripper, Pais Tropical, & Festa.

Daytripper and Pais Tropical do, indeed, have a vocal din. I've never heard anything of the kind on Festa.

Does anyone hear coughing during Bim Bom?

Yes! I recall hearing that the first time I heard the song. It's part of the appeal of that particular cut -- almost as if you're right there in the studio with them!!

I also hear a woman gasping during the instrumental break of Casa Forte in addition to hear a lady's giggle at the beginning of Upa Neguinho. It must be Lani.

Haven't heard any gasping, other than Lani or Karen taking a breath on Casa Forte. As for Upa Neguinho...the track does open with a surprised giggle from Lani. I always thought that perhaps they caught her off guard when recording began. If you listen closely, you can hear her almost let out with an "Oh!" Almost as if she clamped her hand over her mouth in surprise.

I've mentioned this before, but you can also hear Sergio take his foot off the piano peddle on Crystal Illusions at the conclusion of the song. At least, you can hear it on Lp. I haven't checked for it on the CD as yet.

Jon

 

[Brasil_Nut]

Interesting note: Tutti Camarata worked many years for the Disney Cy. as musical director and arranger for Disneys movie scores and with teen Disney starlet singer Annette Funicello.
Ron Disney (the brother) provided Tutti Camarata with financiel support to open his own recording studio Sunset with a young Bruce Botnick behind the buttons.

Although I am not an authority on Sergio Mendes or the A&M Recording Studios, I am an authority on all things Disney. I worked for the Disney Company for well over ten years.

Tutti did, indeed, work for the Disney Company as a musical director, true. However, he cannot be given full credit where Annette's recording career is concerned. The Sherman Brothers (Richard Sherman is a close friend of mine) were responsible for working with Tutti on recordings, writing the majority of her catalogue. It was the Sherman Brothers who made Annette a pop idol; not Tutti. He simply produced the records and had nothing to do with promotion whatsoever -- Walt had an entire publicity department to handle that angle -- something they had been doing since Annette became the most popular Mouseketeer.

Walt's brother -- the business end of Walt Disney Productions -- was named Roy Disney, not Ron Disney. There is no such person. His son, who has been in the news for his dislike of Michael Eisner, is named Roy Disney Junior. Roy Senior, Walt's Brother, did indeed help Tutti get into the recording business away from Walt Disney Productions.

Jon

 

[seashorepiano]

A great example--I know this isn't related to Mendes--is on Talkin' Verve's Walter Wanderley CD. Check out the track "A Different Beat" and listen for someone saying "Oh boy" at the end of the track, probably out of exhaustion!

 

[Brasil_Nut]

A great example--I know this isn't related to Mendes--is on Talkin' Verve's Walter Wanderley CD. Check out the track "A Different Beat" and listen for someone saying "Oh boy" at the end of the track, probably out of exhaustion!

I have heard this, too!

Another example can be heard on Sergio Mendes & Brasil '77 Live In Concert. At the conclusion, as the girls let out with the final "Don't ever go..." you can hear Geri Stevens say, "That's it!" followed by a sweet "Goodnight" from Gracinha.

Jon

 

[Brasil_Nut]

After spending the weekend listening to Going Out Of My Head in several different formats, I've come to the conclusion that JMK and Neil have solved the mystery of vocal din.

JMK is right: I'm hearing the background vocals mixed with Sergio's piano, which is turned up and/or "brought forward" in that particular part of the song. If you listen to Going Out Of My Head all the way through, you'll notice that Sergio's piano is somewhat in the background.

Also, as Neil said:

"Since Sergio's piano seemed to be mic'ed distant on this recording, it could be they had to turn it up in the mix, like they did at the beginning of "One Note Samba" (where you hear the additional tape hiss). If that's the case, it could be something as simple as "bleed-through" from the other instruments."

I think it is a matter of "bleed-through" from instruments and vocal tracks combined. If so, the mystery has definitely been solved.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Jon