What if "(They Long to Be) Close to You" Doesn't Hit?

[JohnFB]

I just want to apologize for being a nuisance - I didn't intend to upset anyone on the other thread. My apologies to you all.

You weren't a nuisance & there's never a need to apologize for stating your honestly held opinions - no matter how much they may differ on a given topic from the majority opinion.

If you're calmly stating how you feel or what you think and if others get angry or otherwise upset in one way or another then the problem is their's and not you or your opinion.

They may decide to "ignore" you if they object to too many of your opinions, or they may choose to only respond to you when they disagree with you, and seldom or never when the actually do agree. There's nothing you can do about this, so just keep on being honest and real.

The only time an apology is necessary is when one deliberately engages in a derogatory personal attack against someone, or some group of people.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Ray Coleman's book states that "We've Only Just Begun" was recorded in May of 1970 and just before the release of "Close To You". In addition, A&M executives were uncertain of the potential success of "Close To You" so they allowed program directors to take their pick of that song or the flipside which was "I Kept On Loving You" with the release being promoted as a "double A side". The radio stations immediately chose CTY and the Carpenters were on their way to stardom.

"I Kept On Loving You" was part of a "double A-side"? Wow. It's been ages since I've read that book. Didn't remember that at all. So they allowed programmers to pick between a Karen lead vocal and a Richard lead vocal? Like that was a choice that was gonna be hard to make? Wow...

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

Here's another tantalizing "what-if"...

What if Karen had been selected as the backup singer for Kenny Rogers during that audition she participated in for his group (The First Edition) in...when was it, 1968? Would she have accepted the job, and what would the consequences been for the yet-to-be Carpenters? Would she have eventually emerged as a solo star in a few years, and what would have happened to Richard & to CTY?

 

[Portlander]

Would have depended on how serious of a gambler Karen was.

 

[JohnFB]

Here's one more interesting scenario:

What if Karen's first record on Joe Osborn's MAGIC LAMP label had been a big seller and, because of this, the label became successful and continued to grow, with Karen - as a solo - continuing to record for it. Would they have eventually become the duo Carpenters, with Richard sooner or later being pulled in at Karen's insistence?

It's very unlikely they would have ever recorded CTY (since there would have been no A&M or Herb to bring it to them) but it is still very possible they would have recorded WOJB since Richard "discovered" that independently (via that TV commercial).

And how many other hits would they have recorded under Joe rather than under Herb?

 

[kprather]

I'll throw in one more.

What if Karen got the part in "True Grit" instead of Kim Darby?

 

[JohnFB]

I'll throw in one more.

What if Karen got the part in "True Grit" instead of Kim Darby?

Here's my uneducated guess - a lot depends on how well she could act, and whether or not she continued to get more & more parts...she was a phenomenal "vocal actress" conveying the emotions of songs. But was she a good dramatic actress? Or could she have become one? If she continued to get parts in movies her singing career might have been put on the back burner - unless she got singing parts in movie or Broadway musicals. And the chances that the group Carpenters would have happened would have been reduced, along with the string of hits...

Then again, if it turned out to be a one time thing then not much of their history as we know it would have changed.

 

[newvillefan]

Here's my uneducated guess - a lot depends on how well she could act, and whether or not she continued to get more & more parts...she was a phenomenal "vocal actress" conveying the emotions of songs. But was she a good dramatic actress? Or could she have become one?

Karen was I think a natural comic, as we saw in segments of their TV specials (the introduction to her family via the framed photographs comes to mind), and I doubt she would have ever wanted to be a serious dramatic actress, or even had it in her. When asked about acting in the 1981 GMA interview, her stated preference was to be in a musical. Which, given where she was coming from, would have made a lot of sense really.

 

[JohnFB]

...and I doubt she would have ever wanted to be a serious dramatic actress, or even had it in her...

Yes, I tend to agree - I don't think she "had it in her" - but the "True Grit" role might have proved us wrong (although I don't recall it as being a particularly demanding role). She had so many talents it's really hard to discount the possibility of this one...

 

[Michael Hagerty]

I'm not sure if "We've Only Just Begun" would've been a big hit if CTY hadn't opened the door for Carpenters. It's a possibility, but it doesn't have quite as much of that instantly hummable foot-tapping charm as CTY does. It benefited from that foundation.

It would have broken open based on West Coast airplay alone---people out here lost their minds, not because it was a second Carpenters single, but because it was a full version of the song in the bank commercial:

 

[JohnFB]

It would have broken open based on West Coast airplay alone---people out here lost their minds, not because it was a second Carpenters single, but because it was a full version of the song in the bank commercial...

Maybe some there got excited about the fully developed bank commercial aspect, but I would think that most people there - and all across the country, and the world - fell in love with it because it was a phenomenal piece of music, from every aspect that makes a recording a hit: melody, arrangement, instrumentation, interesting changes in tempo, the lovely vocal harmonies crafted by R & K, the wonderful, uplifting message of the lyrics and the first full-throared appearance of Karen's stunningly beautiful voice, especially on the first 2 verses...

A sure-fire super hit and in my opinion one of the best - if not the best - recordings by anyone in the modern Era of recorded music. These are the reasons it was used so often as a wedding and graduation song. Even today, over half a century later, people are awed by the overwhelming appeal of this song. How it didn't make it to No.1 on the charts and stay there for months will forever be a "puzzlement"...

There is no better song to play for a newbie to say: this is who Carpenters were and this is what they could do.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Maybe some there got excited about the fully developed bank commercial aspect, but I would think that most people there - and all across the country, and the world - fell in love with it because it was a phenomenal piece of music, from every aspect that makes a recording a hit: melody, arrangement, instrumentation, interesting changes in tempo, the lovely vocal harmonies crafted by R & K, the wonderful, uplifting message of the lyrics and the first full-throared appearance of Karen's stunningly beautiful voice, especially on the first 2 verses...

A sure-fire super hit and in my opinion one of the best - if not the best - recordings by anyone in the modern Era of recorded music. These are the reasons it was used so often as a wedding and graduation song. Even today, over half a century later, people are awed by the overwhelming appeal of this song. How it didn't make it to No.1 on the charts and stay there for months will forever be a "puzzlement"...

There is no better song to play for a newbie to say: this is who Carpenters were and this is what they could do.

My point, to Mike, who voiced doubts about whether "We've Only Just Begun" would have worked if "Close To You" hadn't been a hit---was that the Crocker Bank commercial guaranteed airplay here in California, and once heard, it would be undeniable.

But, seriously---if Richard hadn't called Paul Williams, someone else would have, Paul would have written the other verses, and someone would have had a hit---at least in California---with it.

 

[Harry]

"We've Only Just Begun" came around as a hit right around the time that 'stereo' was still becoming the way to go as an audio format. And that original stereo mix found on the CLOSE TO YOU album and the 45 single is an amazing stereo demonstration piece. Richard's piano starts things off in the hard left channel with the oboe quoting the melody in the hard right. Then Karen's sublime vocal takes center stage and the backing instrumentation swells all around with the shaker prominent in the right channel on the chorus. It's still fun to listen to that mix - speakers, headphones, whatever.

All of the later mixes of the song tended to mush the stereo soundstage together in a homogenous way that isn't as appealing to me. By the time of the 1991 remix that tambourine was buried so far in the mix, it might as well have not been there at all.

So the song was a hit for me just for its glorious stereo. It sounded great on FM radio and as the first track of the CLOSE TO YOU album.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

"We've Only Just Begun" came around as a hit right around the time that 'stereo' was still becoming the way to go as an audio format. And that original stereo mix found on the CLOSE TO YOU album and the 45 single is an amazing stereo demonstration piece. Richard's piano starts things off in the hard left channel with the oboe quoting the melody in the hard right. Then Karen's sublime vocal takes center stage and the backing instrumentation swells all around with the shaker prominent in the right channel on the chorus. It's still fun to listen to that mix - speakers, headphones, whatever.

All of the later mixes of the song tended to mush the stereo soundstage together in a homogenous way that isn't as appealing to me. By the time of the 1991 remix that tambourine was buried so far in the mix, it might as well have not been there at all.

So the song was a hit for me just for its glorious stereo. It sounded great on FM radio and as the first track of the CLOSE TO YOU album.

Agreed. Richard's endless tinkering is generally "for the birds." The original mixes were just fine as they were and "We've Only Just Begun" is a perfect example of this needless tinkering. I don't need stereo piano or stereo drums and I definitely don't need fake kick drum, hyper-reverb, and bad DX-7 key replacement. What we got initially was really cool.

This exaggerated stereo was just the way things were done back then and it's charmingly of its time. For some things, it could be incredibly annoying but on this song, it sounds just right IMHO.

Ed

 

[Matthew S]

Agreed. Richard's endless tinkering is generally "for the birds." The original mixes were just fine as they were and "We've Only Just Begun" is a perfect example of this needless tinkering. I don't need stereo piano or stereo drums and I definitely don't need fake kick drum, hyper-reverb, and bad DX-7 key replacement. What we got initially was really cool.

This exaggerated stereo was just the way things were done back then and it's charmingly of its time. For some things, it could be incredibly annoying but on this song, it sounds just right IMHO.

Ed

Do you mean for the birds that suddenly appear every time you are near?

 

[Matthew S]

"We've Only Just Begun" came around as a hit right around the time that 'stereo' was still becoming the way to go as an audio format. And that original stereo mix found on the CLOSE TO YOU album and the 45 single is an amazing stereo demonstration piece. Richard's piano starts things off in the hard left channel with the oboe quoting the melody in the hard right. Then Karen's sublime vocal takes center stage and the backing instrumentation swells all around with the shaker prominent in the right channel on the chorus. It's still fun to listen to that mix - speakers, headphones, whatever.

All of the later mixes of the song tended to mush the stereo soundstage together in a homogenous way that isn't as appealing to me. By the time of the 1991 remix that tambourine was buried so far in the mix, it might as well have not been there at all.

So the song was a hit for me just for its glorious stereo. It sounded great on FM radio and as the first track of the CLOSE TO YOU album.

And I REALLY miss that shaker/tamb in the RPO version of WOJB. I end up making the sound myself by jingling keys or something…..

 

[JohnFB]

Richard considers WOJB their signature song, and rightly so, although CTY would have to be a close 2nd.

I consider WOJB their best - but not Karen's best (as good as she is here). This is, of course, only because her natural voice is buried under too much technical "stuff" during the choruses. But, I enjoy the overall song & recording so very much that I'm willing to overlook the "stuff". This is saying a lot for me...

 

[Nemily]

"We've Only Just Begun" came around as a hit right around the time that 'stereo' was still becoming the way to go as an audio format. And that original stereo mix found on the CLOSE TO YOU album and the 45 single is an amazing stereo demonstration piece. Richard's piano starts things off in the hard left channel with the oboe quoting the melody in the hard right. Then Karen's sublime vocal takes center stage and the backing instrumentation swells all around with the shaker prominent in the right channel on the chorus. It's still fun to listen to that mix - speakers, headphones, whatever.

^^right on and so well expressed^^

There is one question I have always had: on the first track of The Singles 1969-1973 on the intro when Karen is singing the first two lines of (They Long to Be) Close to You and then the segue into the introduction of Begun (that whole intro and segue in stereo give me chills still), after the segue is complete, is Begun the original stereo mix from the original album?

 

[rockdoctor]

^^right on and so well expressed^^

There is one question I have always had: on the first track of The Singles 1969-1973 on the intro when Karen is singing the first two lines of (They Long to Be) Close to You and then the segue into the introduction of Begun (that whole intro and segue in stereo give me chills still), after the segue is complete, is Begun the original stereo mix from the original album?

To me, it sounds like the original album cut. Sometimes I hear the version from "Singles" played on the radio station that I now listen to.
It is also odd the this was recorded back in 1963/64 by other artists but never hit back then. I think it might have been a bit too slow for that period but in 1970 we had artists like Bread and James Taylor getting airplay with slower tempo songs so it was good that Burt Bacharach suggested this song.

 

[Jack A.]

What if Karen had been selected as the backup singer for Kenny Rogers during that audition she participated in for his group (The First Edition) in...when was it, 1968?

“Islands In The Stream” with KC?

 

[Faithful Fan]

CTY lyrics were a magical and memorable hook especially when coupled with the bouncy arrangement .. Moondust in your hair and golden starlight in your eyes of blue....Just couldn't and still can't get that out of my head. No wonder it was a #1 hit! We needed and still need some magical ear worms.


WOJB made its lasting mark as a wedding song favorite. Almost like reading the wedding scripture " Love is patient and kind " someone has to sing out "White lace and promises...and yes we've just begun."

CTY captured our attention and opened our ears. WOJB then warmed our hearts for the journey. A one-two punch by our beloved duo!

 

[David A]

On topic - even if CTY had completely bombed, outside the top 40, I DO think A&M would have released another single, if for no other reason than desperation, likely WOJB - and as hard as it is to fathom CTY failing, the idea that WOJB would also fail beggars the imagination. And if WOJB hit big, there'd have been a fresh look at CTY by the buying public and a very likely bump in interest (and airplay) - similar to what happened with the Ticket album after the success of Close to You.

A bit off-topic - Since this thread has strayed a bit, if I remember correctly (maybe from book Little Girl Blue?) - Karen felt Let Me Be The One should be released before Rainy Days and Mondays, but was outvoted/overruled/whatever, and so it happened as it did.

Personally I think the right choice was made, because as much as I love LMBTO, RD&M was for decades my favorite Carpenters song, and is still in the top 3 to this day. Gosh knows how long ago, I believe I remember a discussion here on the forum about LMBTO being "too short" to be released as a single, but - again, if memory serves - our own @Harry pointed out that many pop songs at that time clocked in under 3 minutes, and radio stations of the time actually liked it.

 

[Portlander]

I would have released "Let Me Be The One" over "It's Going To Take Some Time" if I were the older brother and it might have extended their consecutive Gold singles streak to 7!

 

[newvillefan]

I would have released "Let Me Be The One" over "It's Going To Take Some Time" if I were the older brother and it might have extended their consecutive Gold singles streak to 7!

I’d have put money on that. ‘It’s Going To Take Some Time’ was their first big mistake single wise. The next one was ‘Goofus’. Both were nothing more than nice album tracks and had no place on the Billboard chart or any other.

 

[JohnFB]

I like "It's Going to Take Some Time" a lot, and can't understand why it sometimes gets a bad rap.

It's a quality song with catchy music & lyrics, and Richard's arrangement, like all of his early stuff, is clever and appealing. Karen's vocal is perfect for the recording - lovely, but restrained, which is what the song called for, just like on CTY.

Carol King famously said that this version made her's sound like a demo (which it does). It's a very pleasant listen and making it to No.12 on the charts is quite an achievment for any recording, and hardly the sign of a failure, or a song that shouldn't have been released as a single.

When one considers all the great songs that they recorded that were never released as singles - every instance of which was a big mistake - this good single being released is hardly a problem. Not every song had to be top 10 to be a success. Exactly what is the difference really between being no.12 and being no.10?