What's next?

[Captaindave]

I am willing to admit that I do not know for sure whether Herb was experiencing any particular playing problems in these later recordings, but I do know this for sure, speaking as a trumpet player...I would NOT trade the sound of those mid sixties albums in terms of trumpet sound for the sound I hear on WARM. If it was an intentional decision, well, so be it, but...sounds like tired lip to me - I've had it myself.

My opinion is that a laid back sound can still be resonant, full, and clear. Chris Botti does it well as far as a contemporary player is concerned. Rick Braun can do it well also. I think the sound Herb gets on songs like Tangerine, I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face, Shades of Blue, etc. is generally laid back, but is still a clean and clear and open sound.

IMHHO, I wish so much that Herb had "kept" his famous tone for the WARM album. I think it would have sounded much better. I'd like to hear, for example, Girl Talk played with more of the Music To Watch Girls By sound. Laid back; perhaps; but still the glorious Herb sound.

Some of the seventies albums seem to me to be so buried in electronics and studio sound effects that I'm not really sure what the trumpet sounded like at that time.

For me, the sound is back in all its former glory with FANDANGO.

 

[Maitlen]

I appreciate the comments. I'm willing to concede that the change in Herb's playing was partly due to a stylistic decision; but as a trumpet player myself at the time (a hack, I'm sure, compared to Captaindave and others on this board) -- I know I agonized over what seemed to me to be Herb's difficulties. I've no problem with "laid-back" -- for example, I love Herb's playing on SRO's "I Will Wait for You" -- but became concerned beginning with "Ninth." On the other hand, I thought his tone sounded strong on "Last Tango," and showed continued improvement on "You Smile ..., " and subsequent albums. I was knocked out by the first album with Masekela, and "Route 101" and FANDANGO confirmed (I agree with Captaindave) that Herb was all the way back. And, the newly recorded trumpet parts for "Happy Hour" shows he still has the magic. I recognize there's a lot of subjectivity at work here, which is why my imaginary WARM release would contain both the original album and the album over-dubbed with new trumpet parts ... that way, everybody's happy. Of course, there's no more than a snowball's chance of this happening ... but much of the fun of this board involves speculation of some sort. Merry christmas, everyone!

 

[Dore Adler]

I always thought Herb's sound was evolving in the Warm and later periods. I defer to the experts at this board about that, though. Maybe this is why he has not scheduled it. His dislike of Vol 2 probably accounts for it's non-release since it sold resonably well in it's day. Oh well...

I wonder if HE thinks all this is just 'whining and complaining'?

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all at this board!

 

[whippedflea]

I waited until I was 38 to try and learn trumpet (btw-I've got a great used trumpet if anybody wants it) and I know it's a pretty good trick to be able to pull off. I was always under the impression that the "subdued" playing on the 1969-1971 albums was that Herb was shooting for that intimate, vulnerable sound - kind of like his singing voice.

 

[manifan]

I'm not a trumpeter myself, but to my untrained ear Herb's later efforts sound more like personal burnout than playing difficulties. The LPs after BOTB didn't have the same passion as the ones that came before it. I always attributed the difference in sound to Herb's disinterest in continuing to record. He seemed to reach a certain high point and then appeared to lose interest in what he was doing. At least that's how it sounded to me. Perhaps he was just longing to go in a different direction.

As for me, I won't be happy until "Warm" -- one of my very favorites -- thru "Summertime" is released. THEN I'll be a happy camper!

 

[Captaindave]

Listen to Chris Botti... or Rick Braun in his more mellow moments...these are two contemporary professional trumpet players who can be "intimate and/or subdued" when the mood arises. Yet, the openness and clarity of tone is superb.

Trumpet tone can be manipulated to create just about any mood or feeling, but it should always be open, centered, and clear. Not fuzzy and unfocused.

I do not deny that the mood of the various TJB recordings varied. A professional trumpet player can alter the sound without altering the QUALITY. It is the fundamental quality of sound, not the styling or mood of the music, to which I refer.

I know that if I would have tried to sound in front of my teachers like those later albums when I was studying privately, they would have told me that my tone needed work and improvement...it would have been considered...may I say it and be so bold?..."bad" tone.

My purpose is only to share what I know from training and experience...I'm not trying to pass judgment on anything. If you like what you hear, that's cool...

I am also positive that some of WARM at least was done on flugelhorn. I can hear the characteristic sound of that instrument. That is definitely a mellower, different sound than a Bb trumpet. Flugelhorn is commonly used in jazz to get that mellow, laid back sound.

 

[Harry]

Embarrassed to say, but all these years and I still cannot detect the difference between a flugelhorn and a trumpet.

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

To me the only part on WARM I don't like is at the very beginning of the 2nd verse on "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" where Herb sounds particularly weak for a second. Like he was playing it live and almost forgot to come in (almost).

 

[Mr Bill]

Embarrassed to say, but all these years and I still cannot detect the difference between a flugelhorn and a trumpet.

I can totally relate, Harry!!! It wasn't until a few years ago and after seeing different performers on each (plus cornet) that I learned to hear the subtle differences in each. And only recently have I been able to discern which passages on the Herb & Hugh albums are Herb or Hugh (and still can't in selected cuts)!!! To describe the difference as it applies to mmy ears is trumpet is much "sassier" and flugelhorn is "mellower" with the cornet falling between the two (with a slight "lean" to the "sassiness" of the trumpet...

Listen to "Skokiaan" and you'll hear the diffeences between the two in the opening horn exchanges...

Now, can anyone advise on discerning the difference in sound between a trombone and valve trombone? Cap'n B???

--Mr Bill

 

[Captaindave]

I must confess that since my only access to WARM is the vinyl album that I have, and since I haven't had a turntable for quite a while, I haven't listened to WARM for a long time.

But, my memory of the album tells me that Girl Talk, Warm, and Pretty World are played on flugelhorn.

The main difference is that the flugelhorn has a much mellower timbre. It reads the same music and is played the same way as a trumpet. That's why many trumpet players can easily double on it. But, a flugelhorn has a larger bell, and is played with a much deeper mouthpiece than a trumpet. It does not use a trumpet mouthpiece. They wrap of the tubing is more open. Some flugelhorns have a much smaller bore than a trumpet. These things make the sound different. Much less brilliant and "edgy." Very round and mellow; very non-brassy; non-penetrating.

If they were played side by side, you could easily tell which was the trumpet and which was the flugelhorn.

Much of Chuck Mangione's playing was done on flugelhorn. His "Feels So Good" was a flugelhorn.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I don't recall any seriously "technical" passages done on a flugelhorn, either. Most flugelhorn passages that i remember are more lyrical and flowing than fast and "intricate". Some of Hugh Masekela's work might be a little on the fast side, I guess...but overall, the f-horn seems to be used in slower music. Dan Fogelberg's LONGER has a famous f-horn passage, as well...



Dan

 

[Greg Shannon]

Maybe it's because I don't have the trained ear of some of my colleagues here, but when I listen to Warm, I don't hear a tired lip or burnout--I hear one of the best TJB albums ever recorded, filled with warmth and soul. Warm has always been my favorite TJB album hands down--although I realize that it's barely a TJB album, having little in common with the early TJB--and remains one of my favorite albums from any artist.

My two cents, anyway . . .

Cheers,

Greg Shannon

 

[Harry]

I agree with Greg about WARM being among the best of the best, and it wasn't until my involvement here that I even noticed the "tired lip" on the album.

When I hear a recording, I accept it for what it is, knowing that it cannot change, and base my opinion on what it is that the recording offers. If there's a tired lip sound on WARM, then so be it. It's still part of the recording that I fell in love with all those years ago.

I would probably dislike any attempt at re-doing the WARM album to correct any flaws. Haven't we had enough of that with Richard Carpenter's endless tweaks and remixes? Or George Lucas' tampering with the STAR WARS trilogy? And I hear that there's a large group of people that want Paramount to re-do the original STAR TREK to add new CGI stuff for the special effects shots. Ick!

Harry
...wanting to leave well-enough alone, online...

 

[Numero Cinco]

Embarrassed to say, but all these years and I still cannot detect the difference between a flugelhorn and a trumpet.

Harry

It's the difference between a warm embrace and a serious kiss.

 

[Dave]

...Bump!

...Is this still the "official" "I Want Warm!/Any Plans to Release ...Volume 2?/What About The Brass Are Comin'?/How 'Bout Summertime?"-Thread?

Just wanted to put something here before it disappears onto the next page and we have to start a 'new topic' on this...


Dave

...who thinks everyone REALLY wanting an "ongoing discussion on a daily-basis" should just post at my Krayola Korner...!

 

[ormandy]

I bought all the TJB discs in 2005. Oh, what a feast.

Funny thing, I seem to be leaving a little room between LB and SOTB.

 

[Maitlen]

The many enthusiastic comments about WARM have me wondering if I misjudged it back in the day. I suspect I listened to the whole LP only 3-4 times before deciding I didn't like it. I did not enjoy Ninth or BOTB upon initial release, but with the CD releases I've revamped my opinion of each -- I realize both are excellent TJB albums (though I still have some reservations about Herb's tone, I've concluded his playing works well on each. In 1968, on BOTB, I felt Herb sounded "asthmatic" -- like he was struggling for air; when I listen to it now I hear a wounded, vulnerable trumpet -- perfectly suited to 1968, given national and world events. Herb's playing was still expressive, but the optimism, energy, and boundless confidence was largely gone.

 

[happycamper]

I think there is a good chance we will see more reissues of some of the remaining TJB albums. For instance, most of you noticed that Lost Treasures contained alternate takes from the You Smile-TSB album, but not the released versions. In addition, the best songs from that album were omitted, such as Fox Hunt, Legend of the One-Eyed Sailor, and Last Tango in Paris. To me this is a clue that this album may yet be released on CD.

I remember a local radio station giving lots of repeat plays to Fox Hunt, and I was blown away by it. I went right down and bought the album (a long time ago).

If re-issuing these other CD's seems to be financially less feasible, I could see an excellent Lost Treasures II CD loaded with the best of TBAC, Warm, Summertime, YS-TSB, and Coney Island. But I think there are too many great songs among these to fit on one CD.