Karen Carpenter Solo Sessions - Continued

[newvillefan]

I’ve been playing her solo album a lot lately and realized she sings “A Song For You” on her solo album. Can you guess where?

'All Because Of You' - I've got a kick out of that every one of the six times I've ever listened to it

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

'All Because Of You' - I've got a kick out of that every one of the six times I've ever listened to it

See Phil was never really able to disassociate Carpenters from her solo album. Lol

 

[Murray]

'All Because Of You' - I've got a kick out of that every one of the six times I've ever listened to it

Don't give up on it yet... after a hundred or more listens, it might just grow on you!

 

[JohnFB]

Don’t you think at playback with A&M present they asked so which one will be the first single? What did Karen say?

...

We do know what Karen said about the album as a whole a little later to Phil Ramone on the phone - she still thought it was a good ******* album, and he agreed...

It's really hard to believe that no one there heard anything that they liked at all, let alone enough to be considered as single material.

Where was Richard when she needed him, and at what point did he suddenly have an epiphany and decide that 4 songs from it were good enough to be included on the "Lovelines" album, from which "If I Had You" was released as a single, wasn't it?

If he and the others heard this and "If We Try" at the playback and said they weren't good enough then they either all had strangely become tone-deaf or, for one devious reason or another, were being disingenuous...

 

[Smoothie2]

Honestly, why not? I for one love Karen's solo work. Yes it's not as good as the Carpenters music - most music isn't! - but It's not bad, and Karen really believed in it. That itself should be enough then there's the fans who want it. What damage will it seriously do to release it all?
Your playlists are brilliant, I've saved them, and wouldn't they be amazing as a delux double gatefold LP set filled with photos and notes.

I completely agree!!

 

[Smoothie2]

Thank you. It would be great in the proper context. I think that's part of the issue. Richard just kinda threw the 1996 album out there like "meh" and the track listing was selected with the motive of choosing the less risqué songs rather than following any type of context. The mix of disco and rock made it a disjointed and odd listen in my opinion, more like a compilation than anything with a coherent flow. It has occurred to me that this "flow" is what has been missing and hopefully someday that can be realized and something like this can see the light of day officially.

Also, these song choices are extremely tame and innocent compared to today's standards, and I doubt that anyone would consider KC's image to be tarnished if everything comes out. It already has anyway and absolutely no one has a trashed opinion of her as a result.

Indeed!

 

[Smoothie2]

Indeed!

 

[Smoothie2]

I completely agree!!

I completely agree!

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

We do know what Karen said about the album as a whole a little later to Phil Ramone on the phone - she still thought it was a good ******* album, and he agreed...

It's really hard to believe that no one there heard anything that they liked at all, let alone enough to be considered as single material.

Where was Richard when she needed him, and at what point did he suddenly have an epiphany and decide that 4 songs from it were good enough to be included on the "Lovelines" album, from which "If I Had You" was released as a single, wasn't it?

If he and the others heard this and "If We Try" at the playback and said they weren't good enough then they either all had strangely become tone-deaf or, for one devious reason or another, were being disingenuous...

You really have to wonder if Richard didn't want it out there. I mean...and I'm sure this has been said before...if Karen's record comes out and it's successful, where does that leave Richard? It proves beyond the shadow of a doubt what we kind of already know: Karen could make it without Richard. She didn't need him to be successful but he did need her to be successful. He definitely didn't need that come to fruition. As to why the others would have heard an unsalvageable album, I have no clue. It may not have been what they were hoping for but they wouldn't even give Q a chance to fix things. This may all come down to Richard. One has to wonder...

Ed

 

[Bartog739]

Please don't close this thread Harry et al! We're behaving ok aren't we?

 

[Harry]

This may all come down to Richard.

No, it doesn't. Karen's album was Karen's album along with Phil Ramone. Let's try to keep Richard and the blame game out of the conversation, especially in regards to playback and shelving.

The album, KAREN CARPENTER, has been in release for going on 30 years now, much longer than it was ever withheld. It can be enjoyed, dissected, re-sequenced, changed artwork - much of what has been going on in the thread. I worry though when we start to get into who was at the playback, who shelved what. Those conversations go nowhere other than to rile up the fans on either side of whatever debate there is.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

No, it doesn't. Karen's album was Karen's album along with Phil Ramone. Let's try to keep Richard and the blame game out of the conversation, especially in regards to playback and shelving.

The album, KAREN CARPENTER, has been in release for going on 30 years now, much longer than it was ever withheld. It can be enjoyed, dissected, re-sequenced, changed artwork - much of what has been going on in the thread. I worry though when we start to get into who was at the playback, who shelved what. Those conversations go nowhere other than to rile up the fans on either side of whatever debate there is.

Just posited a scenario - that's all.

Ed

 

[Harry]

Just posited a scenario - that's all.

I get that - but it doesn't take much to rile up the masses.

 

[byline]

Where was Richard when she needed him, and at what point did he suddenly have an epiphany and decide that 4 songs from it were good enough to be included on the "Lovelines" album, from which "If I Had You" was released as a single, wasn't it?

Treading carefully here, and I hope my reply doesn't get the thread shut down. This is only my opinion. I don't think that Richard had a sudden epiphany. I think he genuinely liked the four songs he chose for the Lovelines album. Only he knows when he developed an appreciation for them. But I think we all have examples of music we didn't like at first, but grew to like over time. And our relationship with that music isn't nearly as complicated as Richard's was.

But four songs do not an album make. Randy's book doesn't lay it out this way, and I can't recall how it was described in Ray Coleman's book. But my own impression is that Herb, Jerry and Richard didn't feel there was an album's worth of strong material, which they felt it needed in order to succeed. As we know, there are widely divergent opinions on their opinion ... especially in hindsight. I have often thought that, had Karen lived, we wouldn't be having this conversation because it wouldn't be fraught with the same "what if" second-guessing and emotional baggage we're left with now. But things happened the way they happened.

Even though I agree with the assessment that Karen's solo album wasn't strong enough to release at the time it was recorded and produced, I'm glad we have it now. Richard has faced an endless swath of decisions since Karen's death, and we can only imagine at what emotional cost to him. I respect him for giving us, first, Karen's four songs on Lovelines, and then Karen's entire album. He didn't have to do that, but he did.

 

[newvillefan]

But four songs do not an album make. Randy's book doesn't lay it out this way, and I can't recall how it was described in Ray Coleman's book. But my own impression is that Herb, Jerry and Richard didn't feel there was an album's worth of strong material, which they felt it needed in order to succeed.

I l know and like plenty of albums where there are one or two strong hit singles, some pleasant album tracks and a couple of fillers. Carpenters albums included

 

[byline]

I l know and like plenty of albums where there are one or two strong hit singles, some pleasant album tracks and a couple of fillers. Carpenters albums included

Fair enough, and I agree. But that's just my perception of what the opinion was during the playback session for Karen's album. I'm not willing to speculate more than this, mainly because I have never been part of that kind of decision-making process on whether to release an album.

I can draw a correlation with another popular duo. Daryl Hall's first solo album, Sacred Songs, was shelved for three years. Because the album was so different from the more pop-oriented Hall & Oates sound, RCA feared that it would flop and alienate the mainstream fans. RCA only finally relented to release it because of a letter-writing campaign from fans and a groundswell of interest from fellow musicians. It was pretty cutting edge in 1977, but by the time it was released in 1980 that ship had sailed, so it was really too late to get the artistic recognition it likely would have received three years earlier. And it didn't sell particularly well. But it also didn't hurt the commercial appeal of Hall & Oates. In fact, they were about to enter their most lucrative commercial period with the release of Voices, also in 1980 but a few months after the release of Sacred Songs.

I cite this comparison because I can remember reading similar conjecture about Karen's solo album, in terms of what impact it might have on the Carpenters' career. (And yes, I know, we've had the discussion about what harm could it have done? But we must remember that this is in hindsight, and the landscape may have looked different to Herb, Jerry and Richard back then.) I feel like this is more of an industry assessment than how we fans generally evaluate music. As in, there's more of a focus on business than on the quality of the music, itself. Someone with more experience in the business side of the record business can elaborate far better than I on what those differences are.

 

[Harry]

Since this subject is ALWAYS and ONLY about Karen's solo album being released "on time" back in 1980, you have to remember how extremely 'cold' Karen and Carpenters were in the eyes of the public. They were yesterday's news and looked upon as some relic joke of the past. No radio station was touching them - and I'm speaking of the US here. Even their golden hits from the early 70s were omitted from radio playlists. And lets not forget the power that radio had in that time. MTV wasn't around yet. Heck, home VCRs were still a new thing. So if you wanted a hit record, radio was still king.

This whole time was a fork in the road. Release Karen's album and there are two ways it can go. It's either a hit or a flop. The experts, knowing the lay of the land, the status of Carpenters as an act, didn't hear anything that said "MONSTER HIT". The other fork was to shelve this and try to re-establish Carpenters as a valued brand. I think we can all see that this was a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

Richard obviously heard some "songs" he liked, not necessarily the recordings. And "Make Believe..." was reworked, and the other songs were remixed for an anniversary album (LOVELINES) when little else was left.

And finally in 1996, out came the whole album - and it, to date, still has gone nowhere.

 

[byline]

Thanks for that insight, Harry. I know you have shared it multiple times, but it's always worth a reminder. So it must have felt very ... what's the word? Perilous? Filled with trepidation? They were trying to choose wisely at that fork in the road you describe. I agree with your assessment that it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

 

[JohnFB]

I get that - but it doesn't take much to rile up the masses.

Well, sometimes those lethargic masses need riled up - that is, they need to get jolted into action!

But, of course, I mean out there in the real nasty world and not here in this polite, considerate, scholarly and highly informed forum

 

[JohnFB]

...

But four songs do not an album make. Randy's book doesn't lay it out this way, and I can't recall how it was described in Ray Coleman's book. But my own impression is that Herb, Jerry and Richard didn't feel there was an album's worth of strong material, which they felt it needed in order to succeed.

Four good songs is pretty damn good for a lot of albums - even only one hot track sometimes resulted in a very popular and good selling album over the years. And, just how many good songs make up "an album's worth"? All of them?

Even though I agree with the assessment that Karen's solo album wasn't strong enough to release at the time it was recorded and produced, I'm glad we have it now. Richard has faced an endless swath of decisions since Karen's death, and we can only imagine at what emotional cost to him. I respect him for giving us, first, Karen's four songs on Lovelines, and then Karen's entire album. He didn't have to do that, but he did.

I respectfully disagree - it should have been released at the time of it's recording for the reasons I stated in a post above.

 

[byline]

I respectfully disagree - it should have been released at the time of it's recording for the reasons I stated in a post above.

We'll agree to disagree. I don't think your reasons are wrong, but do I think they're easy to formulate in hindsight, especially knowing all that we know about what happened in the aftermath of this decision. I think that Harry makes a good point about where the Carpenters were at that point in their career, and what the "do we or don't we" concerns were.

It's worth noting that Daryl Hall's solo album suffered similar scrutiny, also because of its perceived impact on that duo's career, but the difference is that it was eventually released. Its shelving didn't have the same impact on Daryl's life that the shelving of Karen's album did on hers.

 

[JohnFB]

Since this subject is ALWAYS and ONLY about Karen's solo album being released "on time" back in 1980, you have to remember how extremely 'cold' Karen and Carpenters were in the eyes of the public. ...

This whole time was a fork in the road. Release Karen's album and there are two ways it can go. It's either a hit or a flop.

I contend that they should have released it immediately (1) out of respect for all the time and effort and love she put into making it, of bringing a new work of musical art into existence, of putting her heart and soul into it's creation; (2) out of gratitude for everything she had accomplished in the past for A&M, including the publicity, goodwill and all the profits she had a big hand in bringing to their coffers over the years; (3) out of self-interest because it did contain at least 4 (or more) "good" songs and might have eventually paid for itself or even brought in revenue that exceeded costs; (4) and out of consideration for the fact that the album would be a historical record (pun intended) of the work of one of the most talented singers/musicians to have ever graced the planet.

The question of it being a hit or flop is irrelevant, especially in regard to all of the above four considerations. They should have been knocking themselves out to release it - come hell or high water, whether they were hot or cold, whether or not there was profit or loss. For crying out loud it was Karen Carpenter...

 

[byline]

The question of it being a hit or flop is irrelevant, especially in regard to all of the above four considerations. They should have been knocking themselves out to release it - come hell or high water, whether they were hot or cold, whether or not there was profit or loss. For crying out loud it was Karen Carpenter...

As a fan of Karen's, I'm right with you. But read Harry's assessment of where she and Richard were in their career for a "cold, hard facts" glimpse at the business side of their world as it was then. Remember, it wasn't just A&M that was focused on chart success. Richard and Karen were both obsessed with chart success. I can't imagine that Karen would have been happy if her album had flopped. And maybe it wouldn't have. But the powers-that-be gathered in that room on that day didn't hear a breakout hit, and that determined their business decision.

I don't want to keep arguing about it. I just think (and I'm guilty of this, myself) that it's too easy to say that "this is what should have happened" because hindsight tells us that. I've watched enough Doctor Who to be reminded that, if you're a time traveler and have the power to change the course of history, just because you change one "wrong" thing doesn't make all else that follows right.

 

[Harry]

Four good songs

but not four GREAT songs. None of them would have cut through the noise of 1980 and particularly because no radio station would have touched them.

 

[Harry]

The question of it being a hit or flop is irrelevant,

What about that "flop" causing unfeeling entertainment types to make fun of Karen "goody two shoes" doing disco? Think parodies on Saturday Night Live, which was MUCH bigger then as an influence.

We're now forty-four years on. Karen' died. Richard tried to soldier on and failed. Posthumous Carpenters releases have sustained him. The album was released in dribs and drabs and in full, and never, ever set the world on fire. Those "four good songs" are out there. Heard any of them on radio, TV, in movies? Commercials? 'Fraid not.

Were those "four good songs" only good enough to hit the heights back in 1980, but not good enough later on or now?

Did anyone hear any of the "four good songs" out in public when FROM THE TOP or LOVELINES were released? Don't think so.