Carpenters finally on SACD

[Harry]

If the disc is a hybrid, then you'll get a standard 2-channel format for your car or standard CD player. I'm assuming here that you don't have a discrete 5.1 (or more) system in your car. There may not be much difference between THAT 2-channel sound and what you'l hear on the standard CD - it depends on the mastering, of course.

If you have a proper SACD decoder, and the disc is coded in multi-channel, then you'll hear it all in glorious discrete surround sound on your home theatre equipment.

If it comes out in a DVD-Audio format, then there will likely be a separate Dolby Digital 5.1 surround track that any standard DVD player can handle. The Corrs did this with IN BLUE DVD-A.

Harry
...not all that gung-ho on yet more playing formats, online...

 

[Rudy]

Along the same lines.....I'm sure I'm not the only one unfamilar with this format.

I'm hoping to get time, soon, to finish up a "high-res" primer to clarify the new formats.

* Do you think I will be able to tell much difference in my car, as this will probably be the most frequent used place for this new CD?

Won't hear any difference at all--there are currently no SACD car playback units. (I keep rooting for Pioneer to make a universal player for the car.) IF the disc is a hybrid, you can play the CD portion in the car, but it will be a standard stereo presentation.

* Sounds like I need to purchase a separate sound system to receive full benefit of this new format?

Don't know--if your receiver has a separate set of five (OK, six...five channels plus subwoofer channel) analog inputs, you can send the audio from the player right to the receiver. I bought a less expensive Pioneer receiver last year, and it had these separate inputs.

* Will I be able to extract any of these phantom sounds using my current 5.1 dolby digital surround sound system?

No, not at all. At least not on SACD. (See below.)

Keep in mind, SACD isn't any type of encoding--it's a completely new digital format. DSD (Direct Stream Digital), co-developed by Sony and Philips just like the original CD format. You can buy CD/SACD players (Sony makes a few, as do some other companies), but I think it's better to get a universal player that can also play back DVD-A. I believe Sony developed DSD as a high resolution digital audio archival format, but now even major studios are switching over to it, since it is that much closer to analog.

Chris--if you like your turntable more than CDs, I think you'd like the high-res discs. SACD, to me, has a slight edge, but even DVD-A (which is still PCM audio like CD, but at a higher bit rate and sampling frequency) sounds good. Many DVD-A discs also have a Dolby Digital track, just like DVD movies, that will play in surround, but keep in mind that it is encoded (compressed) and not as good as the true uncompressed DVD-A audio.

Pioneer's newest universal is supposed to be the DV-578A (if I remember correctly), at a lower list price than the breakthrough DV-563A of the past year. That's not much more expensive than a decent DVD video player.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Cool thanks for your explanations. I just re-read the news page again of the new Carpenters site.

"Richard is keeping very busy in recording sessions at Capitol Studios creating something special - a 5.1 Surround Sound mix of 21 favored selections - destined to be released on SA-CD (Super Audio Compact Disc) and DVD-Audio in the near future. Is this great news, or what!?!


So from this it sounds like I will be able to hear this new stuff Richard is working on by using it on my home stereo dolby digital receiver that is hooked to my DVD player which is 5.1 dolby digital. Because the news says Richard is working on 5.1 surround sound mix.

Then it says a DVD-audio in the "near future", so then am I reading this right? Later after this new SACD is released, then Richard will release yet another one, a DVD-audio version of the same Singles title CD?

...trying to understand what Richard is doing, online....

 

[Rudy]

Yeah, Universal is being the screwball in releasing both SACD and (eventually) DVD-A equivalents. No different than the old days of releasing both VHS and Beta versions of movies. Same content, different format. Universal has only done that with a handful of titles so far.

Given a choice, I'd stick to SACD. I have a few DVD-A titles but don't really like the format. (No common menuing or playback method, too many graphics, etc...with SACD, you drop it in and play it.) DVD-A also does not have the "hybrid" capabilities...in other words, you'll never own something you can play back in your CD player AND DVD-A player. The only advantage is DVD-A will sometimes work in today's standard DVD players to hear the surround parts (if the DVD-A has a Dolby Digital program), but keep in mind that Dolby Digital is compressed digital audio and never can sound as good as true DVD-A or SACD surround.

 

[andywithaz]

Well you know me, I will just have to buy the SACD and DVD-A.

 

[Jeff]

I'll tell ya what. Finding discs in SACD is not my challenge. Scouring Portland for a mid-line player is. I assumed that these players would be everywhere by now. Funny thing is the majority of people I know say SA what? Even a sales kid at an audio/video equipment store paused, said HUH? Then OH YEAH. I've taken for granted that online and here at the forum we are bleeding edge.

Facing ignorance in the NW,

Jeff

 

[Rudy]

They probably don't know a thing about the formats (no surprise there), but most stores carry the Pioneer DV578A, and the usual price on it is $149. There are better players out there, but this is about the best of the entry-level players. If you ONLY want CD/SACD (and no DVD-A) capabilities, Sony has one for about the same price, and I could find some recent model numbers if anyone's interested.

Might also help to ask for Super Audio CD, too.

 

[Rudy]

Update: this SACD was scheduled for Oct. 26, but it has been moved to "coming soon". Maybe the multichannel mixes were not done in time?

http://consumers.umusic.com/sacd/future.html

At least it didn't drop off the schedule like Steely Dan's SACDs did. However, I read an article this past summer that Eliot Scheiner was still working on the discs...so a June release date would have been impossible anyway!

FWIW, five Elton John titles are still due out on Oct. 26. I already have GBYBR, and it sounds nice even in two-channel.

 

[PJ]

Rudy -thanks for the info on players ....no surprises re : Singles 1969-1981 SACD delays .....Universal UK have not confirmed UK release date yet ....probably 3-4 weeks after USA issue to ensure release for key Christmas sales market .....wonder if original Singles CD album will be released first ...which will be UK debut release for this compilation set

Peter

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Actually, Rudy, they've been testing out a format called DualDisc, which has DVD-Audio stereo and multi-channel on one side and the regular CD program on the other. I have a Donald Fagen "Nightfly" Dualdisc and I think I'm in love... You can have the best of both worlds here. To be honest, I'm much happier with DVD-Audio than I have been with SACD. The sound seems to be somewhat muddier with SACD than with DVD-Audio and the mixes haven't been nearly as good. I have the SACD of "IV" by Toto and it's simply horrendous. The channel separation on the 5.1 mix is just weird and you actually end up losing elements of the track that we had in the stereo version. Conversely, i have yet to get a bad DVD-Audio disc. My Steely Dan "Two Against Nature" disc is the best...but not by much. All 20 or so that have are of amazing quality and I'd recommend the format to anyone.

Just my insignificant two cents...

Ed

 

[Rudy]

I don't have a problem with SACD's sound (I prefer it, in fact...my SACDs outnumber DVD-A by about 6:1 right now), but it does depend on the player also. But mixing problems can't be blamed on the format either. Carpenters will have the same mix in both SACD or DVD-A. My main peeve with DVD-A is that I have to turn on a TV to play back the two-channel programs, since I don't use surround at all. With SACD, I drop it in and play it.

Unfortunately I feel DualDisc will be used more for combining audio and video formats rather than CD/hi-res layers. More and more CD releases are coming with separate DVD discs, since it's more "value for the money", an attempt to perk up sagging record sales. It's sad, but the mass market neither knows about or purchases high-res audio, even if it does offer surround. I've bought all but a few of my discs online, since the brick and mortar stores don't even stock these very well. Yes, there will still be hi-res Dual Disc titles, but I just get the feeling the majority of titles will have only video content instead. And Sony, it's been said, is behind Dual Disc, but you'll never see a DVD-Audio side on any of their products, like Brubeck's "Time Out" that was released during DualDisc's test phase.

As I mentioned, I'm not into the surround deal yet for music. I'm sort of planning on putting together a music-only two-channel system with a good SACD/DVD-A player, turntable (Music Hall MMF-2.1, which I'm repairing), and a pair of refurbished Dynaco MkIII monoblocks (tubes )...not sure which preamp to use yet, but the plan is to go "vintage" and run this through a pair of Small Advent speakers I'm refurbishing and modifying. Probably will be installed in the den here, since I'll use the surround system mainly for movies in the living room, and the Sony ES receiver in the basement.

Just a way of passing the time, I guess...

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I see what you mean, Rudy. The interesting thing is that all of my Steely Dan DVD-Audio discs and the Toto SACD were mixed for surround by the same person - Elliott Scheiner. Yet, the Steely Dan DVD-Audio discs sound fantastic and Toto's record sounds simply awful. Go figure...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with DualDisc. I was under the impression that DualDisc was meant to compete directly with SACD's versatility. It'll be interesting to see if it gets the "green light" for further production. I have a few movies that are dual layer with the "widescreen" version on one side and the "full screen" version on the other. These are called "flippers" and, while they were made often a few years back, I don't know if they're still going down that road today.

Ed

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Hot Diggity Dog. Here it is, but no pic yet. Man this is cheap $13.29 I thought SACD's were more expensive?

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?style=music&pid=6770440&cart=205357267

Should we pre-order?

 

[Rudy]

I see what you mean, Rudy. The interesting thing is that all of my Steely Dan DVD-Audio discs and the Toto SACD were mixed for surround by the same person - Elliott Scheiner. Yet, the Steely Dan DVD-Audio discs sound fantastic and Toto's record sounds simply awful. Go figure...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with DualDisc. I was under the impression that DualDisc was meant to compete directly with SACD's versatility. It'll be interesting to see if it gets the "green light" for further production. I have a few movies that are dual layer with the "widescreen" version on one side and the "full screen" version on the other. These are called "flippers" and, while they were made often a few years back, I don't know if they're still going down that road today.

Ed

Toto IV's masters actually sound that way, which is why even the earlier single-layer (stereo-only) SACD even sounded a bit wonky. But...at least in the case of the single layer, which is the original two-channel mix, Sony just did a straight transfer from the master. (Kind of ironic--IV won a Grammy for best engineered album!) Does it sound to you like IV has some kind of midrange suck-out? (IMHO, "Hydra" is a much better sounding recording.)

All told, though, I'd rather have it straight from the master like that, rather than have an engineer apply any kind of processing to it. I haven't heard the IV SACD with the multichannel layer on it, but I'm guessing it sounds pretty much the same.

The new Matt Bianco sounds terrific to my ears, even the CD layer.

Not sure about DualDisc. I know Sony won't compete with themselves, so they'll be using DualDisc for audio/video sides. Others, though, I would assume it's done on a case-by-case basis. I just hope either format takes off at this point...or both.

NP: Pat Metheny Group, "Imaginary Day", on DVD-Audio...

 

[Rudy]

Hot Diggity Dog. Here it is, but no pic yet. Man this is cheap $13.29 I thought SACD's were more expensive?

Not necessarily. All of the Rolling Stones' ABKCO remasters are priced at CD levels. Tower even had them on sale for $9.99 several months ago.

For that matter, I've bought many SACDs recently for anywhere from $8.99 to $12.00...used, from Amazon marketplace sellers. I'm glad, too, as some are out of print and selling for crazy money on eBay. Want to make a quick $100? Find Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Couldn't Stand The Weather" SACD cheap, and list it on eBay. Last one went for over $120. Paid $19 for mine in April, just after it had gone out of print.

I also got some DVD-Audio deals a few months back--Deep Discount DVD had some promotion code running, which I used, and got three titles for about $24, including shipping.

Generally, SACDs on major labels are only a couple bucks more, if that. If I know a title is forthcoming on an SACD hybrid, I won't buy it on CD anymore. (And with the possibilities of DualDisc, I'll do the same with DVD-Audio.)

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Toto IV's masters actually sound that way, which is why even the earlier single-layer (stereo-only) SACD even sounded a bit wonky. But...at least in the case of the single layer, which is the original two-channel mix, Sony just did a straight transfer from the master. (Kind of ironic--IV won a Grammy for best engineered album!) Does it sound to you like IV has some kind of midrange suck-out? (IMHO, "Hydra" is a much better sounding recording.)

Yeah, it does have a mid-range suck-out...LOL! I noticed it immediately but that's not what bothers me. The two-channel actually sounds pretty darn good.

All told, though, I'd rather have it straight from the master like that, rather than have an engineer apply any kind of processing to it. I haven't heard the IV SACD with the multichannel layer on it, but I'm guessing it sounds pretty much the same.

It isn't. For instance, the channel separation on "Rosanna" is just awful. The synth solo is incredibly dominant and the surrounding keyboards just get lost. It's as if they aren't even there. The drums also don't sound too great. Shockingly bad surround mix by Elliot Scheiner

The new Matt Bianco sounds terrific to my ears, even the CD layer.

Not sure about DualDisc. I know Sony won't compete with themselves, so they'll be using DualDisc for audio/video sides. Others, though, I would assume it's done on a case-by-case basis. I just hope either format takes off at this point...or both.

NP: Pat Metheny Group, "Imaginary Day", on DVD-Audio...

Warner's is responsible for many of the Dualdiscs that made it out during the test phase. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I'm with you in that I just hope something takes off...

Ed

 

[Rudy]

Update: SACD due out Nov 9 2004 from Universal. Take this information with a grain of salt, as usual.

 

[andywithaz]

Thanks for the update Neil. Since Unive$al keep pushing back the release date, would there be any change of the SACD being cancelled like some others? I sure would hate for that to happen.

BTW, where did you get the info for the new release date?

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

The only site I have found that is even listing this is CDUniversse I posted above, so there date must be wrong? Also doesn't 13.00 seem too low a price for a SACD?

 

[Rudy]

$13.00 would be a good price, and yes, it could be legit too. As long as it's a preorder.

I got the date third-hand: I guess Universal doesn't have any dates listed on their own website past 10/26, so anything past that day, they list as "coming soon". Someone on another forum posted they discovered it was due out 11/9.

 

[Jeff]

Rudy,

Are we still goin with the Pionerr DV578A? How many y'all got your players already? I've been tryin to call this releases bluff hopin to get in on the latest and greatest deal.

How cool is this?

Jeff

 

[Rudy]

Are we still goin with the Pionerr DV578A? How many y'all got your players already? I've been tryin to call this releases bluff hopin to get in on the latest and greatest deal.

That's your call there. The DV578A is a great machine at that price, but I know that you could get better sounding players if you got one of the Denon universal players, for instance. But you're looking at $150 vs. $649 for the new Denon 2910, for example. Or you can get an SACD/DVD player (it does not play DVD-Audio though, just video DVDs) from Sony for about $129 also.

Crutchfield's site is a good place to browse a lot of models, and they even have the DV578A on sale for $129 currently.

http://www.crutchfield.com

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Well, Tower is showing the new CD.

http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=3120602&urlid=3a650a9126a446d5f3da

Is Hybrid the same as SACD? All these techie names are confusing this boy.

 

[andywithaz]

Hybrid means the disc will contain both a 5.1 surround SACD and a regular 2-channel stereo CD layer.

 

[Rudy]

Like Andrew says... Hybrid basically means a dual-layer disc: an SACD layer for players capable of it, and a CD layer playable by most CD players. (All "audio" CD players will play it; some computer DVD-ROM drives may have a problem because they try to play the SACD layer which, of course, they are not capable of doing, and they don't know to try to look for a CD layer. My LiteOn DVD±RW drive reads dual-layer discs perfectly.)

Basically, you can buy a "hybrid" and it will play in just about everything.