Carpenters Weaker "Second Half"

[Mike Blakesley]

(No instrumental fillers, no lead vocals by Richard, it's all just Karen's superb lead vocals).
It is ballad-heavy, even a bit draggy, as has been pointed out.

You summed up the "problems" (for me) with Horizon quite neatly right there. Part of the overall charm of A Song For You, for example, was the sheer variety of sounds and material there. You never knew what you were going to hear next. Horizon in contrast is kind of boring. While it's very well recorded, as Harry said, the excitement and charm are much diminished. They almost sound TOO professional.

Longtime readers may remember that I was in the record-selling biz throughout the Carpenters heyday. As a music retailer, I thought it was a huge mistake to put "Please Mr. Postman" on the Horizon album. Since it had been a massive hit single, it had been played to death on the radio and even fans were growing tired of it by the time the album came out (not to mention casual listeners who had grown to hate it!) It would have been better if they'd put in another uptempo-type song, but not an oldie. They should have planned to save "Postman" for the next greatest hits album -- like Elton John did with some of his mid-'70s singles.

 

[GaryAlan]

Good points, from an interesting perspective, Mike.
I had not factored in the "Postman" effect: the public having already being inundated with the song over the airwaves.
I do remember "Top of The World" being referred to as being "played to death", and supposedly people got 'sick of hearing it'.
And, yes, "Please Mr. Postman" is somewhat out-of-place for the album's over-all thematic approach (balladry).
My bias for the album, (psychologically) in my mind, stems from its being the very first album I ever listened to in its entirety by Carpenters.
At that time I was only familiar with the hit singles from the duo, not an album per se.
So, really, Horizon just blew me away from "first hear".
I worked my way backwards from that album.
But, I do understand the criticism leveled at this album when compared to the previous albums.

 

[byline]

I loved Horizon and felt that it was a more mature Carpenters sound signalling a new, "where we go from here" direction. Which was why I was floored, at the time (and not in a good way), by the bland, by-the-numbers homogeneity of A Kind of Hush. Yes, Horizon was a bit slick and overproduced (and, except for the uptempo Postman, it was heavy on ballads), but still it took chances. So for me the career slowdown started with A Kind of Hush ... which was preceded by the behind-the-scenes issues (many of them unknown to most of us at the time) that led to it being the way it was.

 

[mr J.]

Okay, so I'm listening to "Made in America" this afternoon while I write. It sure is a pretty album. And that's the problem. Soft, lightweight, but without bite.

I would think most fans would break down their recording career into two segments- albums recorded pre-"Singles 1969 - 1973" and those that came afterwards. I tend to fall into that category. As much as I love the later recordings and sometimes actually prefer them to the earlier ones, when I dissect them, the whole is weaker than the individual pieces.

It all got me to thinking. Overall "Horizon" aside, the songs themselves are much weaker than the earlier ones chosen to record. Compare "Superstar", "Rainy Days and Mondays" and "Goodbye to Love" to most of what came later.

Although Karen's vocals are lovely and Richard's arrangements are often effective, the end result is just not as strong. I think the poorer song choice adversely affected how they chose to sing, arrange, and produce. Resulting in lesser quality, fewer classics.

What do you think?

Absolutely don't agree with this premise. K&R did some of their best work on the later recordings-particularly,the 1978 sessions.Conversely,a good portion of the early 70's material is inconsequential-including much of Ticket To Ride,the Oldies medley on Now & Then and Richard's lead tracks on the Tan album.

 

[A&M Retro]

Much of 'Ticket To Ride' is inconsequential? I'll take 'What's The Use', 'Turn Away' and 'Nowadays Clancy Can't Even Sing' anytime over 'Beachwood', 'Somebody's Been Lyin'' and 'The Wedding Song'. The early tracks from 'Offering' have so much more energy. Just my opinion.

 

[LondonRobert]

The oldies medley inconsequential??? The DJ can get a bit tiresome after a while - but the vocals on the medley i think are some of the best EVER. Johnny angel, our day will come etc..... they are just sublime.
i think until 1975, nearly EVERYTHING they did was stunning....... after that........... it slipped a little bit, at times - however if we didnt have the stuff before, we would STILL think it was a 100 times better than anyone else!!

 

[byline]

Absolutely don't agree with this premise. K&R did some of their best work on the later recordings-particularly,the 1978 sessions.Conversely,a good portion of the early 70's material is inconsequential-including much of Ticket To Ride,the Oldies medley on Now & Then and Richard's lead tracks on the Tan album.

We'll agree to disagree. For me, everything that came after Horizon lacked the creative spark and consistency of their earlier work. Passage certainly was experimental, and I like most of it, but on a few tracks it felt to me like it was trying too hard to impress. Nothing they did prior to that felt that way to me. For what it's worth, I felt that Richard's lead vocals often provided a nice, lighter counterpoint to Karen's richer vocals. Sometimes you need a bit of lightheartedness in the mix to make the whole work, and I think Richard often achieved that. His misfortune was being a voice forever contrasted with the voice.

 

[Mark-T]

"For what it's worth, I felt that Richard's lead vocals often provided a nice, lighter counterpoint to Karen's richer vocals. Sometimes you need a bit of lightheartedness in the mix to make the whole work, and I think Richard often achieved that. His misfortune was being a voice forever contrasted with the voice."

Really well said.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I guess for me, the first albums (up through Now and Then) sounded like they were having fun making them. Beginning with Horizon they sounded slick, professional, and often overproduced, and the fun side seemed to be gone. If you had only heard Horizon, you would NEVER suspect that the same group would have recorded things like "Intermission" or "Piano Picker" or "Flat Baroque."

 

[A&M Retro]

The oldies medley inconsequential??? The DJ can get a bit tiresome after a while - but the vocals on the medley i think are some of the best EVER. Johnny angel, our day will come etc..... they are just sublime.
i think until 1975, nearly EVERYTHING they did was stunning....... after that........... it slipped a little bit, at times - however if we didnt have the stuff before, we would STILL think it was a 100 times better than anyone else!!

Ain't that the truth!!

 

[GaryAlan]

So many varied and informative perspectives!
Mike, I must say, I do love "Intermission" !
And, it sure did sound like the earlier albums (pre-1975)were fun for them to record.
The vocals for the Oldies Medley are simply fantastic, Karen's reading of "End of The World" simply sublime.
Karen did say that they had much "fun" with sessions for "Now & Then",
but, too, she says the same in the liner notes for "Passage". (But, it is somewhat 'over-produced' at times).
Sadly, that spark of the earlier material is missing from "Made In America".
Yet, no matter what the duo did,
it truly was far superior to their peers,
as noted in the above posts.

 

[Jeff]

Regarding proposed CarpenterS MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC The Nelson Riddle Session: If "arranged by" isn't cool as it's featuring Nelson...howza bout we beef up Richard's credits with vocals arranged by...produced by...conceived by...? Talk of early 70's albums featuring some RC solo would be recreated with You'll Never Know and Slaughter on 10th Ave. A classic in the making, return to form WITHOUT my not-so-fave OK CHORALE. A simple act of compiling some online stuff-n-AS TIME GOES BY-n-INTERPRETATIONS-n-FROM THE TOP'S MEDLEY we have an album on or around the length of HORIZON. While we're at it the accompanying blu-ray of the same name featuring outtakes and the Making of a CarpenterS Classic from all the reels of behind the scenes shots. Commentary by Grammy winner and 1/2 of the famous duo RC.
Now if the album itself is indeed too short....let's just include several of the BURIED TREASURE stock on hand? Bonus material. WIN WIN WIN!!!

That's the plan. Any of you are welcome to submit this to RC in the land of Thousand Oaks California. I'd do it myself but I'm somewhat weary from my faaaaabuliz production efforts.
Y'all get back to me. My card is just itchin for some AMAZON action.
Jeff

 

[Mark-T]

Probably like so many of us, this MMM is already a compilation I made. I love the idea!

 

[Dave]

Well, somehow we've gone off from Made In America to being the "second, weaker half" to it actually beginning after Singles... when dealing w/ the debacle of Horizon and A Kind Of Hush...

At least from my observation, but as I've stated their youth and innocence was always on their side, and there was much little else that could be done, once they'd gone full circle in what could be considered a whole career...

To elaborate more, on what I probably threw things diagonally with, perhaps moving on to another record company may have been a viable option, but a big question would be "Which One?"... As A&M put in a lucrative effort w/ these two, whom accordingly served the company much better than any others could afford to stand any risks with, given the stuff likely considered "fluff" would not be easy to sell...

And the point of Joe Osborn to have continued Magic Lamp, as portrayed on the TV documentary I saw years ago, it still would have faded into small label history as it seemed to have perfunctorily regarded as... So there was simply, to elaborate there, no one to have discovered any "later potential" in that degree...
g
Mind you, later phases of careers, can alienate some new-comers, simply when an artist enters a "new found" phase of a career... In my case, for example, having just discovered Blondie (really just Debbie Harry) it was hard for take for her to have made this one solo album Koo Koo after I'd just enjoyed her last outing with her group, Autoamerican, then to have seen Blondie reform to make The Hunter that I couldn't nearly as easily get into...

The same thing went on w/ my discovery of Steely Dan, when shortly after the Gaucho LP and "Hey Nineteen" being a catchy single, and the Gold collection offering what their previous Greatest Hits set couldn't offer, in the way of later hits, Donald Fagen went out w/ The Nightfly (a good listen, after 30-years though the idea of the group breaking up like that until years later when Two Against Nature and what seemed to be a take on the Pretzel Logic cover, Everything Must Go, more than it being as good as their earlier material, nearly permanently disappointed me)...

Somehow the Carpenters comeback didn't spook me... This still seemed to be the same Karen and Richard doing the same stuff for the same record company... But while the LP was good enough for singles, "Touch Me When We're Dancing" and "BE-45789", somehow the rest of the material was hard to warm up to... To the point where I years later could figure, in another place and time, the duo could have just put out only the singles, and not bothered w/ a home for what was mostly filler...

But mainly that all just to me was ultimately counter-set by Karen's passing a mere two years later... And then years after that Richard stepping out, w/ Time... Which is merely another story altogether...


-- Dave

 

[Guitarmutt]

Well, ok, into the breach go I! I think the original question is too simplistic. Really! There are highs, lows and missteps all along the way, in my humble opinion. To try to delineate between a stronger and weaker part of their career is disingenuous, and it lessens the beauties that reside in each supposed part.

I am of the opinion Ticket to Ride never should have been the first single. 'Don't Be Afraid, All I Can Do or Eve would have been better choices. Just something original, their own? Something not connected to an already legend.

Richard (and eventually Bettis) had a great original voice, but he could not stop looking back for help as if it was he was looking for confidence and guidance. He had huge misgivings about 'Close To You', and he eventually put them aside. But he came up with something that was uniquely their own, even then. There is a through line from here to the end, of the struggle for originality and success.
See my next post, please.

 

[Guitarmutt]

I think there is not much dispute about albums 2, 3, 4. Horizon however causes disputes. I agree, in my own way. Most of it hangs together beautifully as a slow sad, yet hopeful record. Thematically, Postman fits the theme even if musically it does not. Musically, it jars, thematically, it is of the same mind.

It, in hindsight, also reflects the place Karen and Richard May have been at the time. Exhausted, but hopeful.

Hush, sounds tired, and yes again, it reflects the lives of our protagonists. Tired, confused, lost, but still hopeful.

Then Passage, a safari! Prog, pop, country, Africa, reggae, rock, opera. Well, just in this disc are highs, lows, ebbs and flows.

Then Christmas! Usually a collectively high! Portrait! This after Singles! So!

See my next post, please. . .

 

[Guitarmutt]

Plus, there is the Bettis observation and quandary about "Another Yesterday" song, but he wrestled it into his mould which Rich took too.

 

[Guitarmutt]

Sadly, of course, this entire thread is about yesterday, and it is about what might have been. We can speculate all we like with hope, wonder and suspicion, but we can't change a thing. Futility is thine; yet I respond. Silliness begets silliness, and that's my really, really long winded point, I guess!

I love it all, and despair at it all, equally!

Karen makes me sad, and she gives me joy. The entire career has highs, lows, power, joy, pain, suffering love and loss.

There are too many divisions between high and low and not enough!

 

[motownboy]

Such an interesting topic. I have enjoyed reading through the comments. I think Richard and Karen had such high demands on them to make music and for that music to make the charts. It is also curious that the "change" being discussed also happened around the time that K & R dropped Jack Daughtery as record producer. Richard took over and took on another set of responsibilities, some of which have little to do with the direct creation of the music. Throw in the demanding concert tour schedule and that could explain why "Now & Then" was half an oldies cover album and why "Horizon" really only had eight songs. In a way, I thought "Passage" with only eight songs showed another lack of material even though there was great diveristy on it. "Aurora" and "Eventide" are just verses of a song that doesn't have a chorus. Yet for me, I love both of these albums. Between "Hush" and MIA, I like MIA better, except for "Strength of a Woman", but I think "When'It's Gone" is one of Karen's best vocal performances. "Voice of the Heart" was good considering it was an assembly of unreleased outtakes, but I was very pleasantly surprised by "Lovelines" as an album. Had Richard & Karen not been under so much pressure to tour and been able to devote more time to the creative process, I think thee might have been more consistency in the so-called "second half."

 

[newvillefan]

"Aurora" and "Eventide" are just verses of a song that doesn't have a chorus.

That's an interesting observation, I'd never noticed that before. Imagine if they'd been one complete song with a great, soaring chorus a la 'Trying To Get The Feeling Again' or 'Love Me For What I Am' .

I wonder why they never developed the melody past a one-verse piece? Would have made a great question for the John Bettis interview!

 

[Guitarmutt]

We think we know the past, and we have hopes and dreams for the future, really, we know nothing.

Our pasts deceive us, and our futures elude us. So we cling to every nugget and continue to hope. The beautiful voice, songs, drums, arrangements heighten everything: our memories and hopes! Let's squeeze every last drop out of it to cherish. It sounds morbid yes, but I am right there with you. What does that make us?

Does our hope lead us backwards or forwards? If we cling so hard to this past, what are we?

Richard lost his sister; yet moved on. He says he's done with this. Who can blame him? He lives. She does not. Why would we begrudge a man for wanting to move on from losing some one so important? How would you feel? How would I feel?

I too, still want more unreleased music! Every word would be precious, but our entertainment is someone else's family! Let's not ever lose sight of that fact.

Talking about weaker second halves, in this case, is disingenuous in my humble opinion. No one's life is so simply marked!

FYI, this stems from today's John Bettis interview somewhat.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I always considered them bookends, the album is the middle and Aurora Eventide are the end caps. I wonder if both tracks were recorded on the same take? I actually joined them to make 1 standalone track, kinda cool.
This would be a great question in a Richard Carpenter part 2. (hint hint)

 

[Guitarmutt]

Yes, like in offering? Bookends! Not dead ends. Interesting what modern digital editing is capable of today! I, too, do this.

 

[A&M Retro]

They were conceived as bookends from the start, but the total running length combined is about 3 minutes. I've always thought of them as another actual 'song'. They capture Karen at her best, and they really do set up the mood for the album in a unique, atmospheric and interesting way.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I was thinking the other day.....wouldn't it have been cool if Karen had lived and Carpenters were still giving concerts....that Karen and Richard would open there concert with the song Aurora....imagine the audience chattering and then the lights turn down low and everyone stops talking....then there is a hush and it's so quiet you can hear a pin drop then Karen starts singing "Aurora" she is backstage behind the curtain and as she continues to the song a spot light appear but it start with a morning light effect and then Karen emerges and the light gets brighter and she finishes and the audience goes wild....then when the concert is about to end....the lights dim and you see Karen walking slowly off stage, lights dim more and she ends with Eventide.....

OMG I have chills just thinking of this.....

I attended an Olivia concert years ago and she did this same effect starting her concert off...it left such an impression on me.....