Close to You & the Click Track

[ringves]

I recall that Richard has said that a click track was used to record the Cs breakthrough recording of "Close to You". He has also said many times that Karen was like a metronome with respect to her drumming.

So I'm wondering when the decision was made to utilize a click track.

Did this happen AFTER Herb Alpert recommended bringing in Hal Blaine to handle the drumming? Or was the click track used even when Karen was still drumming on this recording?

 

[Matthew S]

Q&A: Inside the New ‘Carpenters:​

The Musical Legacy’ Book with Richard Carpenter & Authors Mike Cidoni Lennox/Chris May​

---

KEN SHARPON DECEMBER 9, 2021
Excerpt:
Rock Cellar: Do you recall a Carpenters recording that was more challenging to get a really great basic track ?
Richard Carpenter: "Yes, Close to You. It’s a very deceptive song and a very deceptive arrangement. The whole thing makes it sound like it’s an easy song and the trouble with that one is it was so strict with timing and rhythm. It was very easy to start rushing. Ultimately, you never want to admit that you need the click track, but on several of them you do, and that was one of them. We finally said, okay, we need a click track so “Close to You” took around 40 takes to get that basic track with bass, piano and drums — but that was an exception."
Source:

Carpenters: 'The Musical Legacy' Q&A With Authors & Richard Carpenter

Authors Mike Cidoni Lennox and Chris May, as well as Richard Carpenter, discuss their new book, 'Carpenters: The Musical Legacy,' available now.

www.rockcellarmagazine.com

Here you go, from a post on another thread.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

It was after. Hal Blaine talks about it in his interview on "The Download." Without a click, they would inevitably speed up the song as it went along. They initially didn't want to use a click because they didn't want to come off as robotic, but Hal reasoned them into it and we all know the results.

 

[Jack A.]

It was after. Hal Blaine talks about it in his interview on "The Download." Without a click, they would inevitably speed up the song as it went along. They initially didn't want to use a click because they didn't want to come off as robotic, but Hal reasoned them into it and we all know the results.

Wow, and they thought using a click track was cheating. Compare that to the recordings these days where the vocals are nothing but autotune...and copied and pasted for each chorus.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Wow, and they thought using a click track was cheating. Compare that to the recordings these days where the vocals are nothing but autotune...and copied and pasted for each chorus.

I don't remember anyone thinking using a "click track" was cheating. It's not like less talent is required when a click is used. Heck, it's actually harder to use one. You have the dumb thing going off in your ears and you have to stay with it and still maintain great feel. Not an easy thing to do. With a tune this slow that could easily "run away" from you, it really was the best solution.

I should also add that there are plenty of recordings today where Autotune isn't used. Jacob Collier and Kelly Clarkson in particular don't use that stuff and there are plenty of others who don't either. Copying and pasting, while certainly used a bit, is not a new thing. Honestly, tuning isn't either; both were just done differently back in the day. They'd double/triple track or even use Varispeed to bring things into tune or at least make them appear to be in tune. Heck, years earlier, they'd just stack a studio singer with the "artist" if he/she couldn't cut it. Leif Garrett likely used all of these tricks. They aren't new.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

... Without a click, they would inevitably speed up the song as it went along...

I'm wondering if this occurred at roughly the same point every time they played through it - my guess would be right after the mid-song instrumental break when they started the repeat of the bridge "On the day when you were born..." because (1) this repeat is immediately proceeded by that unique drum kick which would serve as an impetus to speed up slightly, and (2) it's just the natural tendency to speed up a little when one is also increasing the dynamics of a song's performance, which happens here ever so slightly. The increase in tempo might have occurred at other places, but it would also have had a very strong tendency to do it here.

 

[JohnFB]

... It's not like less talent is required when a click is used. Heck, it's actually harder to use one. You have the dumb thing going off in your ears and you have to stay with it and still maintain great feel. Not an easy thing to do...

No, it isn't- it's not easy at all, and often a real pain in the butt - it is a "necessary evil" however if one wishes to train oneself to play correctly. When I was first learning to play piano I almost always would speed up as I went along through a piece, even simple ones. I remember fighting this especially when I was learning MERRY CHRISTMAS, DARLING. It would always happen from the start of the repeat of the bridge: "The lights on my tree..." and continue as the dynamics increased and continued to the final "I wish I were with you".

... Honestly, tuning isn't either; both were just done differently back in the day. They'd double/triple track or even use Varispeed to bring things into tune or at least make them appear to be in tune...

Ed

True - but for a few, rare singers who were always in tune these old, tired, worn out & artificial techniques were still used, but to achieve objectives other than tuning - and none of which were ever justifiable.

 

[ringves]

So if we ever got an opportunity to hear CTY with Karen on drums - an unlikely long shot, I know! - it would be interesting to note whether there was any noticeable increase in the tempo of the initial recording. While Alpert may have felt that Karen's drumming did not have enough heft, perhaps she actually did a better job of maintaining the tempo. Thoughts?

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

So if we ever got an opportunity to hear CTY with Karen on drums - an unlikely long shot, I know! - it would be interesting to note whether there was any noticeable increase in the tempo of the initial recording. While Alpert may have felt that Karen's drumming did not have enough heft, perhaps she actually did a better job of maintaining the tempo. Thoughts?

Hal Blaine played on about 6,000 singles and worked with nearly everyone who ever mattered. His credit list is nearly endless and his career lasted 60 years. By the time he recorded CTY, he'd already been working for about 20 years. If he was having trouble rushing CTY and needed a click to keep him in line, Karen would have too.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

... While Alpert may have felt that Karen's drumming did not have enough heft, perhaps she actually did a better job of maintaining the tempo. Thoughts?

Don't know about maintaining tempo, especially as good as Hal Blaine (stranger things have happened and she did have the chops to pull it off)...

But as far as this often repeated charge of not having enough strength or power or "heft" goes, one really has to ask: (1) how much actual heft did she, or any other drummer for that matter, really need to drive the beat or rhythm on most Carpenter songs - we're not talking about drug fueled heavy metal here; (2) hadn't she proven herself on the "Offering" album and (3) wasn't Herb aware of her full capabilities on that drum kit, and did he have other less savory motives for virtually insulting a highly accomplished musician by replacing her using weak, flimsy excuses?

All just so much BS - Does this look like a woman with insufficient "heft"?

 

[Harry]

(2) hadn't she proven herself on the "Offering" album

Technically, I suppose, but then again, how many copies of OFFERING sold? Many technically proficient artists make an album - but it takes something extra special to get one to mega-hit status. I personally love OFFERING - many don't - even Carpenters fans.

(3) wasn't Herb aware of her full capabilities on that drum kit, and did he have other less savory motives for virtually insulting a highly accomplished musician by replacing her using weak, flimsy excuses?

Herb was aware of Karen's voice, and Richard's proficiencies as a keyboardist, arranger and composer. Let us not diminish the contributions to Carpenters' stardom by both Herb Alpert AND Hal Blaine. Without those two gentlemen doing what they did, the duo might have floundered in the business and faded away.

 

[JohnFB]

Technically, I suppose, but then again, how many copies of OFFERING sold? Many technically proficient artists make an album - but it takes something extra special to get one to mega-hit status. I personally love OFFERING - many don't - even Carpenters fans.



Herb was aware of Karen's voice, and Richard's proficiencies as a keyboardist, arranger and composer. Let us not diminish the contributions to Carpenters' stardom by both Herb Alpert AND Hal Blaine. Without those two gentlemen doing what they did, the duo might have floundered in the business and faded away.

Yes, I like much about OFFERING too , but I don't think Karen's drumming had anything at all to do with it's "failure" - much more to blame (among other factors) would probably be the fact that Richard sang the lead on what, 5 or 6 tracks. No matter how good the songs were in themselves nobody was buying this record to hear him sing. If Karen had sung them all there might have been a chance for it.

I wasn't trying to diminish Herb & Hal's contribution to their careers. I was questioning Herb's motive for replacing Karen on drums. After OFFERING he must have known what she was capable of, even if he had not fully known at the point where he signed them. Given the nature of most of their music there was nothing absolutely essential that required the presence of Hal Blaine on drums, as good as he was. His drumming wasn't a major factor in the success of any of their songs. Their music wasn't that demanding or complicated and she most definitely had the chops to handle any and all of it. Now, I have no knowledge that Karen asked to be replaced & the worst part in all this is that it seems that Richard concurred with Herb on the replacement, when he should have stood firm in backing his sister.

 

[Harry]

I was questioning Herb's motive for replacing Karen on drums.

Getting a hit!

 

[Harry]

Their music wasn't that demanding or complicated and she most definitely had the chops to handle any and all of it. Now, I have no knowledge that Karen asked to be replaced & the worst part in all this is that it seems that Richard concurred with Herb on the replacement, when he should have stood firm in backing his sister.

To what end? The song was a huge hit as recorded and released with Hal Blaine on drums. It doesn't get better than number one.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Getting a hit!

THAT part. Karen was...a very good drummer. Hal was a hit-making drummer. They needed a hit at that point and thus far, they hadn't had one. She could certainly cut it but Hal was on a dizzying amount of hits. They'd have been a fool not to use him.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

...

... Given the nature of most of their music there was nothing absolutely essential that required the presence of Hal Blaine on drums, as good as he was. His drumming wasn't a major factor in the success of any of their songs...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

Yes, of course, Hal was on drums and the recording was a gigantic hit - but the second doesn't necessarily follow from the first.

This song, being passed over and then passed along by Herb, with Bacharach & Davis' creative words & music, Richard's inspired arrangement, and Karen's sweeter than sin vocal would have been a big hit no matter who was on the drums - hells bells, even I could have played them!

There was a tight group of very talented people involved in making this a hit, and it had little to do with Blaine on drums - he was just along for the beautiful ride.

 

[Harry]

If you're happy discrediting Hal Blaine, so be it. His record speaks for itself, and it wasn't the last time he recorded with the Carpenters.

 

[Nemily]

To elaborate on what @Matthew S and @Mike Blakesley are saying, the use of the click track had nothing to do with the drums. The intro for the song is set by the keyboards. The story from Joe Osborn (from the above mentioned, the Download interview), is that Richard was having a tendency to rush the intro. It was Richard that needed the click track. This does not diminish Richard's contribution, it is just a fact and it ended up being a silver lining.

The use of the click track had nothing to do with Karen or Herb choosing over Karen. When Herb Alpert decided to give Carpenters another go, he wanted to use the Wrecking Crew (Hal-Drums, Joe-Bass and Larry Knechtel-Piano) in an attempt to make CTY a hit ('Let's hope we have some hits'), as @Harry points out. And it almost was the Wrecking Crew, however Richard ended up replacing Larry. PS all of these facts are brought to you by @Chris May

 

[JohnFB]

If you're happy discrediting Hal Blaine, so be it. His record speaks for itself, and it wasn't the last time he recorded with the Carpenters.

Sorry Harry - I had no intention of discrediting Hal Blaine - I was merely trying to put the credit that he should get in proper perspective.

 

[Jack A.]

Actually, as someone who records music themselves, I can attest that it is quite easy to end up rushing, especially with keyboards. In the case of the drums, the tempo has to remain consistent and perfectly on time, or else the whole recording is messed up. I mean, think about it - when you’re “vibing” to a song, part of that enjoyment comes from picking up on the rhythm of the beat - and following that rhythm. If the beat is inconsistent or off-time, you can’t really do that, which can make the recording sound chaotic. Therefore, a click track can be a helpful aid for musicians who have more trouble staying on the beat.

 

[JohnFB]

..

When Herb Alpert decided to give Carpenters another go, he wanted to use the Wrecking Crew (Hal-Drums, Joe-Bass and Larry Knechtel-Piano) in an attempt to make CTY a hit ('Let's hope we have some hits'), as @Harry points out...

Allow me to repeat what I said above - given the quality of the song, the ingeniousness of Richard's arrangement/orchestration and most of all Karen's incredibly appealing vocal interpretation this song at this time in music history was destined to be a colossal hit. The presence of the Wrecking Crew added a certain amount of proven professional enhancement to the recording, but was not a major factor in its being that hit. Karen's drumming would have been different than Hal's and certainly would have been more than good enough, but still wouldn't have been one of the causes of the success of the recording. Her voice was. But, she had earned the right to be there on that drum kit. Herb might have been well-intentioned, but he was mistaken. And besides, nobody bought this record because of the drumming, or because Hal Blaine was doing it...

 

[Harry]

Here's a perfect example of why "Close To You" would require a click track. This recording is from April 1972 at Philadelphia's Academy Of Music. You can actually hear Richard speed up as Karen sings "Why do birds..." after his slower intro.

If memory serves, Karen WAS behind the drums at this point in the concert. They later brought her out front and Jim Anthony replaced her on drums. The orchestra was being conducted by Ray Bloch who used to conduct for both Ed Sullivan and Jackie Gleason.

I have just uploaded this, so very few have ever heard it.

 

[Matthew S]

Here's a perfect example of why "Close To You" would require a click track. This recording is from April 1972 at Philadelphia's Academy Of Music. You can actually hear Richard speed up as Karen sings "Why do birds..." after his slower intro.

If memory serves, Karen WAS behind the drums at this point in the concert. They later brought her out front and Jim Anthony replaced her on drums. The orchestra was being conducted by Ray Bloch who used to conduct for both Ed Sullivan and Jackie Gleason.

I have just uploaded this, so very few have ever heard it.

And we’re off to the races!

 

[crescentnoon]

I have to agree with JohnFB, but hindsight is 20-20. The trade off of using Hal Blaine instead of Karen on the drums was not worth it in the end. Karen earned her spot, was more than good enough, and that was, in her mind, what she signed up for. They took it away from her. It's not as if she was merely competent. She was exceptional; an accomplished musician. Herb wanted a hit! It was wrong and greedy and unnecessary. Sure, Hal had a resume. Great. Let someone else with the ability have their chance. It's just sad.
Oh well. At least Hal did his job well. I'm sure there are regrets from some involved and some who felt that's just the business.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Sorry Harry - I had no intention of discrediting Hal Blaine - I was merely trying to put the credit that he should get in proper perspective.

I hate to be that guy but you did discredit Hal when you said this:

This song, being passed over and then passed along by Herb, with Bacharach & Davis' creative words & music, Richard's inspired arrangement, and Karen's sweeter than sin vocal would have been a big hit no matter who was on the drums - hells bells, even I could have played them!

Harry is totally right. Karen had no track record of as a hit-making drummer as of yet. Hal did. He had a sound and that sound created hits. I disagree totally that just anyone could have played on that track. It has a tremendous feel that required a great drummer. Literally everything on the track sits on top of Hal's drum track so it had to be nailed perfectly. Hal should (and does) get credit for that on this song and hundreds of others. The results of using that particular collective of musicians speak for themselves - a number one record for four weeks. Karen's main calling card was as a singer. As such, she has no parallel there. That is what matters most here. Without her vocal, nothing works. Hal was just brought in to make sure that the drumming portion worked as well...and it does.

Ed