Close to You & the Click Track

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Here's a perfect example of why "Close To You" would require a click track. This recording is from April 1972 at Philadelphia's Academy Of Music. You can actually hear Richard speed up as Karen sings "Why do birds..." after his slower intro.

If memory serves, Karen WAS behind the drums at this point in the concert. They later brought her out front and Jim Anthony replaced her on drums. The orchestra was being conducted by Ray Bloch who used to conduct for both Ed Sullivan and Jackie Gleason.

I have just uploaded this, so very few have ever heard it.

Karen's feel is utterly different. She's definitely busier. Hal was content to just lay back and groove. Very different approach.

Ed

 

[Mike Blakesley]

The presence of the Wrecking Crew added a certain amount of proven professional enhancement to the recording, but was not a major factor in its being that hit. Karen's drumming would have been different than Hal's and certainly would have been more than good enough, but still wouldn't have been one of the causes of the success of the recording. Her voice was. But, she had earned the right to be there on that drum kit. Herb might have been well-intentioned, but he was mistaken. And besides, nobody bought this record because of the drumming, or because Hal Blaine was doing it...

You're putting all the credit eggs into one basket. A hit record is composed of a bunch of ingredients, not one ingredient. Let's go down the following list of facts.

1. Herb suggested using the Wrecking Crew guys because he said the recording of "Close To You" needed to be deeper, or "funkier," to use one of his words.

2. Herb had heard the record with Karen drumming on it. You, John, have not. So you have zero reference to back up your assertion. I have no way to know, either, but my guess is if we could hear both versions side by side we'd conclude that the final version was the better of the two. Richard and Herb must have thought that, too, since that's what they released.

2. Herb wanted to bring in Hal Blaine because he had prior experience with him. Hal is the one who had provided Herb with his biggest breakthrough hit, "A Taste of Honey," due to the suggestion of the "boom-boom-boom-boom" countdown which leads to the chorus of that song. Hal came up with that, Herb didn't.

3. Hal had already played on dozens of hit records before Herb was even in the business. Karen Carpenter, at the time CTY was recorded, had played exactly zero hit records (unless you count "Ticket to Ride" which wasn't exactly a smash). And Herb was basically paying their salary at this point. They were in the hole on Carpenters. Herb just had a feeling about them, that it would only take the right song and the right recording to put them over. And he was right. Herb had one motivation only: "Let's have some hits." He was completely within his rights to do whatever it took to help that happen, using his own experience, instinct and insight.

4. Using somebody other than the actual group members to play on a record was very common then and is still done today. The Beatles even did it. It takes a different kind of skills to play in on a record vs playing onstage.

5. Herb had already overseen many hit records of his own and others, and, over his career, proved to have an uncanny knack for knowing when something sounded like a hit. So to say he "made a mistake" and that Karen's voice, all by itself was the reason for CTY being a hit is ridiculous. People absolutely did buy that record because of the drumming, AND the singing, AND the piano playing, AND the lyrics and melody and the rest. It is a package. That record is greater than the sum of its parts.

The bottom line is that unless one of us discovers a parallel universe in which the original Karen-on-drums recording of CTY is released, there's nothing any of us can do but speculate. But let's speculate using sensible arguments.

 

[1969]

So if we ever got an opportunity to hear CTY with Karen on drums - an unlikely long shot, I know! - it would be interesting to note whether there was any noticeable increase in the tempo of the initial recording. While Alpert may have felt that Karen's drumming did not have enough heft, perhaps she actually did a better job of maintaining the tempo. Thoughts?

Should this be the CTY take where she sang it Harry Nilsson-like, maybe there's a chance of one day hearing it. I hope so. Would be fun to hear. But regarding Hal Blaine, I recall he mentioned in an interview (maybe Modern Drummer magazine? ) where he was quoted as saying "Karen had a tendency to rush" in her drumming. He did use the word "rush." I was surprised, because all the Hal Blaine interviews I read published after Karen had passed were nothing but deferential to her drumming skills. The interview where he said she rushed was done a couple of years before she passed.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Should this be the CTY take where she sang it Harry Nilsson-like, maybe there's a chance of one day hearing it. I hope so. Would be fun to hear. But regarding Hal Blaine, I recall he mentioned in an interview (maybe Modern Drummer magazine? ) where he was quoted as saying "Karen had a tendency to rush" in her drumming. He did use the word "rush." I was surprised, because all the Hal Blaine interviews I read published after Karen had passed were nothing but deferential to her drumming skills. The interview where he said she rushed was done a couple of years before she passed.

A LOT of drummers rush. That's not the most derogatory thing, honestly. With a tune like "Close to You," it would be quite easy to rush it. Richard rushed himself in the clip that Harry posted.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

But as far as this often repeated charge of not having enough strength or power or "heft" goes, one really has to ask: (1) how much actual heft did she, or any other drummer for that matter, really need to drive the beat or rhythm on most Carpenter songs - we're not talking about drug fueled heavy metal here

No, we’re not, but I think Karen was much more suited to jazzy drumming techniques so in the studio she tended to skim over the kit rather than laying into it on more conventional pop songs. Think ‘This Masquerade’ - that’s right where she was at her best. I’d still love to hear the first two outtakes of Close To You - we’d all have a field day with this very question.

Why they’ve still not been released is beyond me. Nobody bar the die-hards would give a hoot so it would hardly be tarnishing the legacy to release them just for fun.

 

[newvillefan]

A LOT of drummers rush. That's not the most derogatory thing, honestly. With a tune like "Close to You," it would be quite easy to rush it. Richard rushed himself in the clip that Harry posted.

Speaking of which, the piano is audibly rushed in the first verse of ‘Yesterday Once More’, right where Karen sings “when they played I’d sing along”. It always bothered me on the original mix and he did it again on the 1985 piano remix.

Here at 0.15:

 

[JohnFB]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

Yes, of course, Hal was on drums and the recording was a gigantic hit - but the second doesn't necessarily follow from the first.

This song, being passed over and then passed along by Herb, with Bacharach & Davis' creative words & music, Richard's inspired arrangement, and Karen's sweeter than sin vocal would have been a big hit no matter who was on the drums - hells bells, even I could have played them!

There was a tight group of very talented people involved in making this a hit, and it had little to do with Blaine on drums - he was just along for the beautiful ride.

You're putting all the credit eggs into one basket. A hit record is composed of a bunch of ingredients, not one ingredient...

...So to say he "made a mistake" and that Karen's voice, all by itself was the reason for CTY being a hit is ridiculous. People absolutely did buy that record because of the drumming, AND the singing, AND the piano playing, AND the lyrics and melody and the rest. It is a package. That record is greater than the sum of its parts.

@Mike Blakesley - when I said in my post that you quote that "Karen's voice did" [sell the record] I meant to say that it was the major factor, much more important the Hal's drumming...I failed to complete my thought.

But, in two posts I did mention all the factors that contributed to CTY becoming a big hit - see my own quote above, which you either missed somehow, or you're conveniently ignoring to serve your own purposes.

And when I said that Herb made a mistake in replacing Karen with Hal I was talking about the principle involved, that of professional courtesy and of her having earned the right to do the drumming - knowing her skill I'm sure she would have worked out a satisfactory drum line, if not quite as outstanding as Hal's at least one that wouldn't have hurt the appeal of the song and cost them some sales.

Certainly Hal's drumming was part of the overall appeal of the recording, but only a minor part, and absolutely no one anywhere went into a record store at the time and said "Excuse me, do you have that new record that Hal Blaine is doing the drumming on?"

 

[JohnFB]

..

The bottom line is that unless one of us discovers a parallel universe in which the original Karen-on-drums recording of CTY is released, there's nothing any of us can do but speculate. But let's speculate using sensible arguments.

Yes, I agree that we should "speculate using sensible arguments", but I also think we should acknowledge all previous arguments that have been made on a topic before or while making our own arguments. Distorting or ignoring what has been said before is not sensible, and unfair, and leads to justifiable speculation about motives.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

@Mike Blakesley - when I said in my post that you quote that "Karen's voice did" [sell the record] I meant to say that it was the major factor, much more important the Hal's drumming...I failed to complete my thought.

But, in two posts I did mention all the factors that contributed to CTY becoming a big hit - see my own quote above, which you either missed somehow, or you're conveniently ignoring to serve your own purposes.

And when I said that Herb made a mistake in replacing Karen with Hal I was talking about the principle involved, that of professional courtesy and of her having earned the right to do the drumming - knowing her skill I'm sure she would have worked out a satisfactory drum line, if not quite as outstanding as Hal's at least one that wouldn't have hurt the appeal of the song and cost them some sales.

Certainly Hal's drumming was part of the overall appeal of the recording, but only a minor part, and absolutely no one anywhere went into a record store at the time and said "Excuse me, do you have that new record that Hal Blaine is doing the drumming on?"

There is no such thing as "professional courtesy" in these environments. There is "how can we get a hit?" "Offering/Ticket to Ride" went nowhere and a hit was needed. Musicians are replaced all the time on recordings - that's just the way things have been for decades. Hal's drumming gives the track its groove. As stated earlier, everything sits on top of it. That's no minor thing - regardless of your own perception. Joe Osborn's bass playing isn't minor, Richard's piano playing isn't minor, Chuck Findley's trumpet isn't minor, and Karen's voice is definitely not minor either. All of these elements came together to create the monster hit that "Close to You" became. Take any one of them away and who knows?

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

... but I think Karen was much more suited to jazzy drumming techniques so in the studio she tended to skim over the kit rather than laying into it on more conventional pop songs. Think ‘This Masquerade’ - that’s right where she was at her best. I’d still love to hear the first two outtakes of Close To You - we’d all have a field day with this very question.

Why they’ve still not been released is beyond me. Nobody bar the die-hards would give a hoot so it would hardly be tarnishing the legacy to release them just for fun.

Her training seems have been mostly in Jazz drumming, especially with all the Jazz records she listened to and taught herself to play along with at home - and the one serious instructor she had was a former Big Band drummer who probably reinforced & refined a lot of what she was learning on her own. And then she had a few years of valuable live experience handling the drumming chores for Richard's Jazz trio.

There can be no doubt that she had serious drumming skills ("chops") at this point. Now, if her first few attempts at playing the drum part on CTY were not satisfactory - in Herb's opinion, or Richard's - this would have been surprising. Maybe the "dotted" semi-syncopated rhythm threw her off, or was a little different from what she was used to and had mastered before. Maybe Herb's and/or Richard's opinions were wrong, or their expectations were unreasonable. Maybe she disagreed with their goals or judgements, but was just too young and timid to say anything - especially when being double-teamed by the boss and her big, dominating brother...

But, If it actually was true that her drumming was lacking for one reason or another it seems reasonable to assume - given her considerable skills - that eventually she would have worked something out that was really good, or at least serviceable. This was a typical recording studio process that had been repeated countless times by any number of musicians on many different recordings. Richard himself more than likely had done the same thing any number of times.

So, the right thing to do - out of respect for her & in consideration of her proficiency - would have been to be patient and let this outstanding musician work it out on her own. I believe that she would have gotten there.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Her training seems have been mostly in Jazz drumming, especially with all the Jazz records she listened to and taught herself to play along with at home - and the one serious instructor she had was a former Big Band drummer who probably reinforced & refined a lot of what she was learning on her own. And then she had a few years of valuable live experience handling the drumming chores for Richard's Jazz trio.

There can be no doubt that she had serious drumming skills ("chops") at this point. Now, if her first few attempts at playing the drum part on CTY were not satisfactory - in Herb's opinion, or Richard's - this would have been surprising. Maybe the "dotted" semi-syncopated rhythm threw her off, or was a little different from what she was used to and had mastered before. Maybe Herb's and/or Richard's opinions were wrong, or their expectations were unreasonable. Maybe she disagreed with their goals or judgements, but was just too young and timid to say anything - especially when being double-teamed by the boss and her big, dominating brother...

But, If it actually was true that her drumming was lacking for one reason or another it seems reasonable to assume - given her considerable skills - that eventually she would have worked something out that was really good, or at least serviceable. This was a typical recording studio process that had been repeated countless times by any number of musicians on many different recordings. Richard himself more than likely had done the same thing any number of times.

So, the right thing to do - out of respect for her & in consideration of her proficiency - would have been to be patient and let this outstanding musician work it out on her own. I believe that she would have gotten there.

The right thing to do would have been to do exactly what they did: hire someone who could get it done and done well. "Serviceable" is not good enough; only a hit is. It's not like they took her off the song; they just replaced her drumming with Hal's. The scenarios of what may have happened in the studio as proposed by you are just that: scenarios. None of them may be true; we don't know. I'll just say this one more time and leave it alone: Carpenters needed a hit. Hal Blaine is a hit drummer. Joe Osborn is a hit bass player. Chuck Findley is a hit trumpet player. The only one who stayed was Richard and he kinda had to be there. Get a bunch of hit players in a room and you get, you guessed it, a hit.

Ed

 

[Mark-T]

The right thing to do would have been to do exactly what they did: hire someone who could get it done and done well. "Serviceable" is not good enough; only a hit is. It's not like they took her off the song; they just replaced her drumming with Hal's. The scenarios of what may have happened in the studio as proposed by you are just that: scenarios. None of them may be true; we don't know. I'll just say this one more time and leave it alone: Carpenters needed a hit. Hal Blaine is a hit drummer. Joe Osborn is a hit bass player. Chuck Findley is a hit trumpet player. The only one who stayed was Richard and he kinda had to be there. Get a bunch of hit players in a room and you get, you guessed it, a hit.

Ed

I'm thankful it played out the way it did. Imagine if the song was not a hit. There probably wouldn't be more than one Carpenters albums to listen to.

 

[JohnFB]

And I'll say this for the 3rd or 4th (and last) time - CTY was a hit exactly because of 3 major factors: song quality, arrangement quality and vocal quality. All else - including who the sideman were - was minor & secondary. Dozens of competent studio musicians could have filled in...

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I'm thankful it played out the way it did. Imagine if the song was not a hit. There probably wouldn't be more than one Carpenters albums to listen to.

That's a bit more interesting. If that one doesn't hit, does "We've Only Just Begun"? Did it need "Close to You" to hit first? Honestly, I doubt it. "We've Only Just Begun" is an amazing song in its own right with the same hit crew recording it. I think if one doesn't hit, the other does. 'Course, there's no way to know but "We've Only Just Begun" just screams "hit" to me.

Wait, I've got an idea. This conversation can continue in the new thread. I'll bow gracefully out of this one now. Everything's been said, really.

Ed

 

[crescentnoon]

It has been said that this is just the way it was done, session musicians would be replaced, etc. Karen Carpenter considered herself the drummer for Carpenters. She wasn't a member of a group, for example, called 'The Wrecking Crew', she was one of two Carpenters! That is where I take large issue with this whole idea of taking her off of the drums and having someone else's name be plastered all over her music as the drummer when she studied for years to be a drummer, now the music she is part of uses her name, and she isn't even allowed to be the drummer for it? Close To You, by Carpenters, drumming by Hal Blaine - NO! What if someone told Herb, hey, y'know, you are a trumpet player, but this other guy is going to step in and take over for now (and most of the time in the future) and we'll go ahead and continue using your name on the music anyway. Richard arranged the song, so why did he need to be on keyboard, if someone else could have maybe done it better? Why did he get to stay on his instrument and not Karen? Fine, the song was a hit. Karen wouldn't have just done a 'serviceable' job on the drumming, she knew what she was doing. That was her gig.
It seems like a slap in the face giving her gig to someone else while they used her in every which way to enrich themselves.

 

[Florian]

Richard arranged the song, so why did he need to be on keyboard, if someone else could have maybe done it better?

If my memory is correct, they say in the "Musical Legacy"-Book, that Richard was replaced by Larry Knechtel, but they reverted back to him.

 

[Harry]

Richard was replaced in a lot of the CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT project by Pete Jolly.

 

[JohnFB]

Richard was replaced in a lot of the CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT project by Pete Jolly.

Yes, but it wasn't because Pete Jolly was considered a better pianist. Richard was - how shall I say - indisposed. It turned out to be, as Richard himself said, almost totally "Karen's Album". But his rendition of "Carol of the Bells" was a stunning exhibition of his amazing skills on the keyboards. He would later contribute several more instrumental masterpieces to AOFC.

 

[Harry]

Have you listened to any of Pete Jolly's albums? They're quite good, and I'd say he might be more improvisational than Richard.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

It has been said that this is just the way it was done, session musicians would be replaced, etc. Karen Carpenter considered herself the drummer for Carpenters. She wasn't a member of a group, for example, called 'The Wrecking Crew', she was one of two Carpenters! That is where I take large issue with this whole idea of taking her off of the drums and having someone else's name be plastered all over her music as the drummer when she studied for years to be a drummer, now the music she is part of uses her name, and she isn't even allowed to be the drummer for it? Close To You, by Carpenters, drumming by Hal Blaine - NO! What if someone told Herb, hey, y'know, you are a trumpet player, but this other guy is going to step in and take over for now (and most of the time in the future) and we'll go ahead and continue using your name on the music anyway. Richard arranged the song, so why did he need to be on keyboard, if someone else could have maybe done it better? Why did he get to stay on his instrument and not Karen? Fine, the song was a hit. Karen wouldn't have just done a 'serviceable' job on the drumming, she knew what she was doing. That was her gig.
It seems like a slap in the face giving her gig to someone else while they used her in every which way to enrich themselves.

Then you’d really have a problem if we talked about Daryl Hall and John Oates. John’s flat-out not on a lot of the tunes his name is on. No writing, no playing, no singing, no nothing - straight Daryl solo songs in all but name. This wasn’t just once in a while either. Neither is this the only act where this kind of thing happened.

This happens…and it happens all the time. Karen was NOT taken off the tunes; she just isn’t the drummer. Hal was not the only drummer to replace her either. Richard was producing when Cubby, Larry, and Ron got involved…and on songs she associate produced, no less. She was thus clearly okay with it. Maybe we should be too.

Can I interest you in a warm cup of tea now?

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

... Hal was not the only drummer to replace her either. Richard was producing when Cubby, Larry, and Ron got involved…and on songs she associate produced, no less. She was thus clearly okay with it. Maybe we should be too.

Can I interest you in a warm cup of tea now?

Ed

But, was she really okay with it? Do we actually know for sure? Did she say so in some interview? Or is this just "speculation"? It would be easy to speculate on several reasons why this happened without her being okay with it. For example, maybe she did protest but just got tired of running up against the strong resistance of the Herb/Richard power block. This is speculation too, of course, and only Richard could gives us the details of how this happened [being replaced on drum by multiple people] AND how Karen came to honestly feel about it. But, I don't believe he's talking - and his view on it might be a tad clouded or perhaps self-serving (even more speculation).

What I'd really like to know is why Karen went along with the double-tracking of her voice on so many of their recordings, when it was so clearly detrimental to the perception of that magnificent voice...was she really okay with that too? Really? Karen, if you're reading this, please contact me - somehow...

Hey Ed - I thought we were both jumping ship and getting out of the quagmire which is this thread, but here we still are...gluttens for punishment...

And I'll take that cup of tea - I like English Breakfast tea piping hot, with cream & honey!

 

[crescentnoon]

From an interview with Herb Alpert:

"All artists should be looking for their own voices."

Herb Alpert – HERB ALPERT TALKS BACK WITH OFF BEAT MAGAZINE

herbalpert.com

With how the Carpenters, or at least Karen, was handled, it's not really 'Carpenters' actual music, is it? It's more like: 'Herb Alpert's - the Carpenters.' or 'Herb Alpert's - the Carpenters, featuring Richard Carpenter, with Karen Carpenter on vocals'.

It's like someone else's creation of a group, and how that group's music will sound. Or would it be argued that Richard dictated most of the decisions? In that case, it's 'Richard Carpenter and friends', or 'The Richard Carpenter Experience'.

The point is, Karen wasn't given the opportunity to 'look for her own voice' as Herb stated. She was told to sing pretty for the nice people. She didn't get to put her signature on the music. I'm sure she would have rather had the full opportunity to do so which would have included allowing her to actually be Carpenters drummer.

 

[Harry]

People! Stop being so sure of what was in Karen Carpenter's head, or anyone else's head. The fact is YOU DON'T KNOW!

Thread closed.