"Goodbye To Love" with the RPO

[KNP1701C!]

When the RPO album was first released back in 2018.. I was thrilled with it for the most part.. However, one thing that stuck out to me like a thumb hit with a hammer was the addition of the trumpet "solo" at the end of the song.. It actually made me physically wince when I first heard it. It still bothers me to this day. The remix up to that point is beautiful. Karen's voice somehow, sounds like she was actually there in the studio to lay down fresh lead vocals. (How Richard managed to do that is a thing of genius in my mind!) Still, that trumpet.. It sounds so out of place within the song... and I am sure had Karen been alive.. she'd likely have told her brother "Why mess with perfection?"


How do you all feel about it? Yes... No.. or indifferent?

 

[adamj95]

I listen to the RPO album almost weekly and this track is one of the only ones I skip. The trumpet is just wrong. I can understand what they were going for but it’s just jarring for a longtime fan to hear.

 

[Harry]

I love that piccolo trumpet part and think it was inspired. Remember that these are remixes and the original is still out there.

 

[KNP1701C!]

I love that piccolo trumpet part and think it was inspired. Remember that these are remixes and the original is still out there.

I know that.. and I just prefer the original recording sans piccolo trumpet. To me it just sounds out of place within the context of the song. Still the remastering of Karen's vocal... Now that... Is a thing of beauty!

 

[KNP1701C!]

I listen to the RPO album almost weekly and this track is one of the only ones I skip. The trumpet is just wrong. I can understand what they were going for but it’s just jarring for a longtime fan to hear.

I can handle listening to the song.. but usually hit the "skip track" button right after Karen sings. "And it's goodbye to love..." at the end of the vocal and before the trumpet starts!

 

[Mark-T]

Depending on my mood, sometimes I like the trumpet, sometimes I so not. But it was fun to hear something different. I like the RPO version of Postman for the same reason.

 

[Geographer]

I love that piccolo trumpet part and think it was inspired. Remember that these are remixes and the original is still out there.

I'm with Harry on this one. I will always love the original; however, this was a nice addition in my opinion, considering the context of the RPO concept. It's not my "go to" mix of the song, but something different and appreciated.

 

[Harry]

Love the sound of the trumpet soaring above the Carpenters' stacked harmonies.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I've heard it just a couple of times and still prefer the original. But I can't say I found it "wrong," it just wasn't the same song. I'll listen to it again at some point.

 

[Jack A.]

When the RPO album was first released back in 2018.. I was thrilled with it for the most part.. However, one thing that stuck out to me like a thumb hit with a hammer was the addition of the trumpet "solo" at the end of the song.. It actually made me physically wince when I first heard it. It still bothers me to this day. The remix up to that point is beautiful. Karen's voice somehow, sounds like she was actually there in the studio to lay down fresh lead vocals. (How Richard managed to do that is a thing of genius in my mind!) Still, that trumpet.. It sounds so out of place within the song... and I am sure had Karen been alive.. she'd likely have told her brother "Why mess with perfection?"


How do you all feel about it? Yes... No.. or indifferent?

It was an interesting inclusion. I personally don’t have a problem with it, but we all have those little things that we don’t like from songs. As long as it doesn’t interfere with Peluso’s guitar solo, I’m cool with a new addition like that.

 

[newvillefan]

I found that trumpet (or piccolo or whatever it was) intrusive from the first time I heard it. Haven’t listened to that track since. It got me thinking about the bonus RPO track ‘Please Mr Postman’ and I found it on YouTube, where these comments caught my eye:

“This, to me, was the most ‘different’ selection of this entire project, and what I was anticipating for the other songs included. That syncopated rhythmic string section is so unique and perfect for what could have been done to this project, and I felt disappointed it wasn’t. Even further so to find that this was only available on the Target retail release”.

This observation is spot on - the reimagining of the second verse of ‘Postman’ reminds me of the RPO version of the Beach Boys’ ‘Fun, Fun, Fun’. It’s edgy, different and imaginative. A reply to the above poster’s comment came back:

“While I love this version and and I like the ending to ‘Hurting Each Other’, the other songs plus some of the interludes are the same as what was used in their concerts. I expected more of Richard given his genius”.

Can’t disagree. That album was such a let down for me. I stayed up until midnight to hear the entire thing drop on Spotify and I remember feeling that sense of disappointment that very first night I heard it. I said as much at the time and still feel the same way now. There was almost no adventure, imagination or reinvention used. It was really just an opportunity for Richard to double/triple/quadruple the size of the orchestra and basically copy/paste about 90% of what he had done in their heyday. Yes, I know the original albums are there if that’s what is preferred but this was a totally wasted opportunity.

 

[ullalume]

I cant recall where I heard it, but apparently the trumpet was originally due to come in later. It would've been 12 secs of their harmonies, then 12 secs of harmonies and trumpet, then into the solo.
Personally I'd have preferred this approach...just allowing that wall of vocal sound to stand alone for a few bars before it gets its trumpet accompaniment.

 

[Proudofyou]

When I first heard it and wasn't prepared, it took my breath away because it was unexpected and I was like, "Noooo". It was like popcorn falling from the sky. Now, I absolutely love it. It's a celebration (even though it's a painfully sad song so its juxtaposition makes you feel happier and free when you should be miserable about to jump off a cliff). It's seems like a nod to the Beatles and I love it.

 

[GDBY2LV]

As my all time favorite song, and old license plates on my cars after Karen’s passing, I thought it was a brilliant tribute to not only the Beatles, but to England, and their loyal fans. Plus the use of their Royal Philharmonic on the beautiful new orchestral recordings of Carpenters music. No harm done. If you don’t care for the track, just skip it, or listen to the original, or remixes on a dozen other albums.
All you need is love…

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I agree with the majority. I don’t hate it but it’s pretty superfluous. That section already achieved the needed tension production-wise without it IMHO. Beyond that, the new mix is very nice.

Ed

 

[A&M Retro]

I personally love it! While it might be deemed as 'unnecessary', I think it sounds classy and gives a classic song a fresh sound.

 

[JohnFB]

I love what Richard did for Karen's vocals throughout the RPO album: bringing them to the forefront where they always belonged - louder and clearer and less encumbered with the orchestral/vocal accompaniment...

As far as the trumpets go they add very little excitement to the arrangement, and perhaps distract slightly from Tony's magnificent guitar solo, which deserves to stand out without having to overcome their jarring effect...

If Richard had wanted to try something really different and exciting (and yet completely logical) he should have replaced the dull, dreary, uninspired French Horns in "Superstar" with some more brilliant work by Tony and his stunning guitar solos - after all, the song is all about a guitarist whose instrument is sweet and clear at one point, and yet sad at another - it only makes sense that we should have heard examples of that right there with Karen's haunting vocal.

 

[WYBIMLA]

That's an interesting observation on the remix. I can hear what you mean about the piccolo trumpet in the context of Goodbye to Love.
Karen's voice often pairs well with an Oboe than another woodwind or brass instrument.

Let's be thankful it wasn't the pan pipes. Lol jk

I remember Richard talking about how certain things haunted him about the original recordings and RPO was a chance like no other previously to make an even fuller sound. I mean, if you're going to use the Royal Philharmonic then this choice doesn't particularly surprise me.

I think a few things about this and it's more philosophical in nature than some kind of objective 'right or wrong' or scientific answer.

The Carpenters have a quality about them that is more along the lines of a vocal group. So, when you go to add in more production then it runs a little bit of a risk where the listener goes "what am I listening for?"

That's a tough balance because the purpose of the project is make use of the orchestra when you could theoretically sell the improved vocal tracks with a more stripped release and that would do phenomenally too.

I can hear how at the moment of the "aaahs" before the fuzz guitar comes in you'd rather hear more of the vocals at that point since the guitar is already going to come in and soar above them anyway. Perhaps and idea of redundancy is what is off putting about it.

Also, the choice of the piccolo isn't bad, yet it is a more cheery sounding tone to it. It's more suited for Christmas music than it is for a melancholy song.
I'm thinking the notes themselves are alright with what the piccolo is doing. Maybe if it were a small group of trombones it might work better because the trombone can add to this more dark feeling and still make use of the orchestra and compliment the fuzz guitar.

So, that could have been an alternative option. Something like that. Maybe use the Glockenspiel for that part as a call back to how Karen used to play it. haha
I don't know perhaps a change in the instrument would've made it less out of place.

Who knows exactly why it ended up the way it did, but I don't really mind it. I find when I hear RPO I feel like I'm picking up on Richard's thinking about what to put in and what to take out. I can't say I disagree with him. It was a challenging project as I'm sure any opportunity for remixing is.

At any rate, I'm glad we have it anyways. Can't really complain all that much. Not really any right or wrong. It's down to different preferences and tastes. There is justification for the piccolo trumpet at that particular moment. Whether fans give it the thumbs up or not isn't for Richard to lose any sleep over.
I'm sure Karen would've just been happy to know people still love their music.

 

[JohnFB]

...

The Carpenters have a quality about them that is more along the lines of a vocal group. So, when you go to add in more production then it runs a little bit of a risk where the listener goes "what am I listening for?"

That's a tough balance because the purpose of the project is make use of the orchestra when you could theoretically sell the improved vocal tracks with a more stripped release and that would do phenomenally too.

...

Now, there's an idea - a stripped release - some of us have been advocating for that for some time - an album full of their best with Karen way out front and center and with minimal orchestral/vocal accompaniment - such as on "One More Time" or "Ordinary Fool"...

On YT there's a vocal coach who analyzes Karen's performance on OF, and she says something to the effect of how breathtaking it is to hear her gorgeous tone with simplified accompaniment...when one can hear clearly every nook and cranny of the perfect choices she makes as a singer...later, that her rendition is a masterclass (in the art of singing)...

What an incredible blessing it would be to have much more of the same.

 

[WYBIMLA]

Now, there's an idea - a stripped release - some of us have been advocating for that for some time - an album full of their best with Karen way out front and center and with minimal orchestral/vocal accompaniment - such as on "One More Time" or "Ordinary Fool"...

On YT there's a vocal coach who analyzes Karen's performance on OF, and she says something to the effect of how breathtaking it is to hear her gorgeous tone with simplified accompaniment...when one can hear clearly every nook and cranny of the perfect choices she makes as a singer...later, that her rendition is a masterclass (in the art of singing)...

What an incredible blessing it would be to have much more of the same.

Yes, I know what you mean. It's nice to have the chance to hear. However, there's has been a mixture of recordings that includes their famous overdubs, choral backgrounds and KC's solo leads.

Now it got me thinking which of The Carpenters recordings had a majority of Karen with either minimal use of background vocals or none. Hmmm
It might be a list like follows:

Someday
Nowhere man
California dreaming
Sometimes
A song for you (Mostly solo Karen lead vocal)
I can't make music
Aurora
Eventide
Desperado
One more time
I have you
I need to be in love (Practically a Karen solo record)
Two Sides
You're the one
When it's gone
Ordinary Fool
Look to your dreams (There's the choir on this, but it def has stripped parts of it and was Karen's idea to record it)
Where do I go from here
When I fall in love
From this moment on

So, indeed it is nice to hear the one's where it's more so focused on Karen's marvellous voice. There are definitely "just Karen's lead" present even on The Carpenters records that dates to the beginning of their music career. After all she is 'Lead Sister' so it is Karen upfront since 1969. ahaha

Also, The Christmas album was practically all Karen. And of course there's her own solo songs like "Make believe its your first time" and "All because of you."
I'd think the reason Karen herself put backing vocals on her solo records and why the Carpenters did so is a matter of selling records.

To us fans, perhaps we like to think it'd be great to have basic piano, bass, drums and vocal. However, there's a reason for the 'wall of sound.' Karen herself would admit as an artist you don't actually want to be hanging out in front all the time as a vocalist.

Not only did RC and KC love the sound of choirs and creating 'big fat vocals' because it's supposed to help carry the song. Practically everyone in the business does it or some iteration of the idea.
It wasn't just The Carpenters that enjoyed adding production elements to their music, but that's part of industry standard too. Carpenters innovated the process of music recording and influenced a lot of popular music as well. So kinda hard to take that out of the mix once setting that presedent.

I know what you mean about having Karen's lead, but they're also in a business, and their selling point is that innovative sound of theirs. And no one could do it better than the two of them.

Overall they did a fair job throughout the years to record an eclectic body of work that showcased Karen's voice well. Even on something like "Solitaire" or "Tryin' to get the feeling again" have backing vocals on them but it feels more like it was only Karen you remember from that.
So, I think a bit more than what's realized is Karen was already upfront most of the time.

Sometimes fans may forget that Karen herself also liked to be held with the support of her brother or other musicians and singers, and share that space as well. She did give us those moments that feel like it's just her with the listener too.

There isn't really any of the best selling artists that are that comfortable with "let's do an album where it's just piano and voice." It's a nice idea but labels wouldn't really go for that and most artists wouldn't want to do an entire album like that. Hence the reason this thread. Sometimes those extra added elements work well and other times maybe not so well and that's ok.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Now, there's an idea - a stripped release - some of us have been advocating for that for some time - an album full of their best with Karen way out front and center and with minimal orchestral/vocal accompaniment - such as on "One More Time" or "Ordinary Fool"...

On YT there's a vocal coach who analyzes Karen's performance on OF, and she says something to the effect of how breathtaking it is to hear her gorgeous tone with simplified accompaniment...when one can hear clearly every nook and cranny of the perfect choices she makes as a singer...later, that her rendition is a masterclass (in the art of singing)...

What an incredible blessing it would be to have much more of the same.

To do that, Richard would have to deemphasize himself. That's nothing he's ever done before. A lot of RPO was Richard emphasizing himself even more. Heck, he gave Japan a karaoke set that totally eliminated Karen's leads. He took out the major calling card on a bunch of their tunes...and released it. Odd choice but understandable for the karaoke-crazy Japanese market.

Whether Richard is thrilled with this or not, he has to know that Karen is the main thing we're listening for. She's what made the whole thing work. I agree with you that a stripped release (just rhythm section and vocal) would be fun but I doubt it ever happens.

Ed

 

[Geographer]

Heck, he gave Japan a karaoke set that totally eliminated Karen's leads.

Ed

And what a great CD that is!! I love Richard's arrangements as much as I like Karen's singing. So go, Richard, GO! Emphasize away!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

It's interesting how something being added or taken away from an original recording works. I used to dislike the little electric guitar riffs that were added to the "Yesterday Once More" single -- I preferred the riff-less original album version. But over the years I heard the single version so many times that eventually that became the "normal" one for me, so now the album version sounds odd to me without the guitar riffs.

 

[JohnFB]

...

Now it got me thinking which of The Carpenters recordings had a majority of Karen with either minimal use of background vocals or none. Hmmm
It might be a list like follows:

Someday
Nowhere man
California dreaming
Sometimes
A song for you (Mostly solo Karen lead vocal)
I can't make music
Aurora
Eventide
Desperado
One more time
I have you
I need to be in love (Practically a Karen solo record)
Two Sides
You're the one
When it's gone
Ordinary Fool
Look to your dreams (There's the choir on this, but it def has stripped parts of it and was Karen's idea to record it)
Where do I go from here
When I fall in love
From this moment on

So, indeed it is nice to hear the one's where it's more so focused on Karen's marvellous voice...

@WYBIMLA - excellent list - I would add A PLACE TO HIDE AWAY, LEAVE YESTERDAY BEHIND, ONE LOVE, and a few others...I would love to add MAYBE IT'S YOU because of it's compelling melody line and arrangement, but can't since they chose to double her lead vocal on the choruses...strip that out and it's a great song/vocal/recording.

...

To us fans, perhaps we like to think it'd be great to have basic piano, bass, drums and vocal. However, there's a reason for the 'wall of sound.' Karen herself would admit as an artist you don't actually want to be hanging out in front all the time as a vocalist.

Not only did RC and KC love the sound of choirs and creating 'big fat vocals' because it's supposed to help carry the song. Practically everyone in the business does it or some iteration of the idea.
It wasn't just The Carpenters that enjoyed adding production elements to their music, but that's part of industry standard too. Carpenters innovated the process of music recording and influenced a lot of popular music as well. So kinda hard to take that out of the mix once setting that presedent.

I know what you mean about having Karen's lead, but they're also in a business, and their selling point is that innovative sound of theirs. And no one could do it better than the two of them.

Yes, you're correct about all that - I don't agree with everything they did in the recording studio, but I do understand why they did it: mostly the need to create more "hit" records and Richard's compulsion to experiment with "enhanced" recording techniques...but I'm not asking that all they did be undone - only that it be supplemented in their catalog with alternate versions of their best - these wouldn't necessarily have to be completely stripped down versions (with just drums, bass, piano & vocal) but instead "lightened" versions with vocal out front prominently and slightly less orchestration/background vocals, which would be a little further back or underneath - and, most importantly of all, any doubling of the lead vocals totally wiped out.

Overall they did a fair job throughout the years to record an eclectic body of work that showcased Karen's voice well. Even on something like "Solitaire" or "Tryin' to get the feeling again" have backing vocals on them but it feels more like it was only Karen you remember from that.
So, I think a bit more than what's realized is Karen was already upfront most of the time.

This is true to a great extent - and it was always great when it was Karen by herself - Solo Karen - it became something else entirely on those occasions when she sang duets and trios with herself...yes, I know, it helped sell records because it was what most of the fans wanted - ok then, but now lets hear what she really sounded like on all those hits. I truly believe most here would love to hear that.

Sometimes fans may forget that Karen herself also liked to be held with the support of her brother or other musicians and singers, and share that space as well. She did give us those moments that feel like it's just her with the listener too.

There isn't really any of the best selling artists that are that comfortable with "let's do an album where it's just piano and voice." It's a nice idea but labels wouldn't really go for that and most artists wouldn't want to do an entire album like that. Hence the reason this thread. Sometimes those extra added elements work well and other times maybe not so well and that's ok.

Good thoughts and thanks for helping me clarify exactly what I'm after here - what I really want to hear!

 

[JohnFB]

To do that, Richard would have to deemphasize himself. That's nothing he's ever done before. ...

Whether Richard is thrilled with this or not, he has to know that Karen is the main thing we're listening for. She's what made the whole thing work. ...

Ed

Well, of course, he's known that since the "Joe Osborn Sessions" in his garage studio when Joe signed her to that ill-fated, short-term original contract. And that may have been his biggest problem through the years, and why he won't or can't de-emphasize himself...