Karen solo album

[cam89]

Hi All,
I was watching the YESTERDAY ONCE MORE documentary on the Carpenters, and am always very puzzled with the fact that Karen Carpenter's solo album was not released. I always feel there was MUCH MORE that was not said or shared, and remains hidden to this day...Here are some of my muddled thoughts on this. Okay first, was that A&M thought it would be a good idea for Karen to do this solo album and they asked Phil Ramone to produce it. Great. Richard was in rehab with his drug dependency and Karen did not want to remain doing nothing, so she moved to New York to do this album. Richard gets upset because number one, Karen is going solo but also, that she was in no condition to be making a record looking like she did(very thin...but then he made Horizon, A Kind of Hush, Passage, Christmas Portrait with her very skeletol!)...and when she does bring the finished product back, she is accused of stealing the Carpenters sound!! I don't think Phil stole anything, or Karen for that matter...it's not stealing it! I mean did RC have it copyrighted? I was not under the impression that harmonies need to be copyrighted...and second, This recording of Karen had much more multilayered harmonies and complex than the origional CARPENTERS records, in my opionion. Take a listen to Still Crazy or IF I HAD YOU...these are very, very complex!! And must have taken a lot of work. THen they accuse her of sounding like some black chick! I didn't know that Karen sounded Black!! And anyways, what is wrong with sounding black?
Then there are the playbacks, and Karen loves it, but then the Record Company decides that they have to go back and redo it plus more songs...so they do, and they finally decide not to release it. Herb then says, it doesn't touch him the way a Carpenters record did. But it's not supposed to!! This was Karen's solo record!! So on the one hand, she is accused of stealing the Carpenters sound, and then on the other hand, is told it doesn't sound like a Carpenters record should sound. No wonder Karen had problems with her anorexia and family. She had everyone around her saying yes and no...and when it wasn't to be released, she wept on Phil Ramone. It really crushed her that she was being rejected, which all of us face at one time or another but anorexia is such a horrid disorder, and the sufferer really has no self esteem. So for her to record this album, having fun while recording it, singing a different style and having her own say in it, and then the company saying, nope, it won't be released...it must have done something to her esteem. So she puts on this front, saying, oh, I don't want to release it, and it didn't mean much to me, and now I am going to record a new album with Richard...something doesn't seem right.
On the Yesterday Once More BBC documentary, Herb is asked about this...and he says, "Oh, I don't remember why it wasn't released" and something about, "She wasn't totally happy with it" I thought hog wash! Karen loved it! It was her labor of love. There seems there was a conspiracy there, and it has always bothered me.
Oh and also RC saying Karen sang too high...Well correct me if I am wrong, but didn't he record her singing high for many of their songs...Twos Sides, Because We Are In Love(after the solo album...a year later), Now, Invocation, Someday and so many other songs she sang in her high range. Plus she had a 4 octave range, why not use it?
These are just some of my thoughts...I really do love her solo collection and unreleased songs. She WAS a versaitile singer in my opinion and could have sung anything...

my thoughts,
Cameron Longo
[email protected]

 

[Jeff]

Hey everybody!

I have to echo some of the same sentiments as the previous post. Not only was KAREN CARPENTER more edgy and raw, it was a testament to Karen's ability to 'shine' solo and due to her great effort and dedicatiion to the project, proved once and for all who the star of CarpenterS was. I mean for crying out loud the lady had THREE Grammy's! She could do no wrong and posed a great threat to the duo as proved by her ability to 'go-it-alone. Perhaps, the powers that be (and shame on them RC) felt that the CarpenterS were more profitable as a duo and the Phil Ramone sessions threatened that. Karen's versatility demonstrated that she could take any format, including the dreaded 'disco sound', and make it into something all her own. Now, where this pertains to the over-all 'final days' of her life and her on-going battle w/ anorexia seems to be that one more time(and shame on them RC) she was being 'dictated' to and completely undermined her opinions and presence as a solo artist. As time goes by and little bits of truth make it to the 'people' it would seem that the jury concurs...shelving the effort was a gross injustice and nothing less than a slap in the face. Even now my heart still aches for her...

wishing she was here,

Jeff

 

[Harry]

Repeating something I've written before on this subject, I think I understand where A&M was coming from on the decision to shelve the Karen solo album.

I was working back then (1980) at the same radio station I work for now, and I'd been in the radio field for about 6 years up to that point. So I think I have a pretty good perspective about what THAT industry was doing back then. We were a soft-rock station at that point, and one thing I recall was how very little Carpenters music was being played on the station. I'm pretty sure we played "We've Only Just Begun" and maybe "Yesterday Once More" and that's about it. Earlier in the decade, you couldn't go more than an hour or so without hearing another Carpenters record on the radio, but by 1980, they'd fallen WAY out of favor with the radio industry. You have to understand that this was around the beginnings of the testing of music with sample groups to determine the best playlist for your station, and as I recall, Carpenters music began to show rather high negative reaction. That is, a large enough percentage of the sample audience not only didn't like Carpenters, they absolutely detested them. I even recall some of our employees saying things like "If we played less of that Carpenters stuff, our ratings would be higher." Radio programmers, fearing the dreaded 'tune-out' factor cut way back on playing Carpenters material.

So now you've got this lull after Passage, and Carpenters are no longer in favor, and are virtually forgotten as far as radio is concerned. With 20/20 hindsight, after having heard the finished solo album, it's my humble opinion that the album wouldn't have made much of an impact back then. In fact, it might have been made fun of. "Oh, look who's trying to be hip now" - that kind of thing. Understand that I love the solo album personally, but I don't think it would've helped the image problem that the duo found themselves in. Suppose it had gotten released and was a dismal failure - a distinct possibility. I think that would've pushed Karen's esteem even lower.

No, I think A&M made the difficult decision properly - shelve the solo album and try to re-create the 'Capenters magic' with a new album.

Harry
...hoping he's properly understood here, online...

 

[Rudy]

Part of the complaint, too, was that RC had thought she'd "gone disco" on a few tracks...and even disco was falling out of favor by then too. If she had done this in 1978 and made it more dance-oriented (more like "Lovelines"...more Rod Temperton tunes, maybe even having someone like Quincy Jones rather than Phil Ramone producing), she may have had a sleeper dance hit with the album. IF she could have overcome the public ridicule....like Harry says, not all of the public was enamored of their sound. When I was in school, it was decidedly un-hip to listen to that kind of music. Any of us who liked it would have to stay in the closet about it.

 

[cam89]

Hi All,
I do understand that Radio Programmers would not play the Carpenters music on radio in the late 70's and early 80's. But the solo album was supposed to change Karen's image, and the same for Richard's image. Even Richard said there were hit singles in her solo album. I could easily see Making Love In The Afternoon and If I Had You being huge hits...Top 10, as well as Number One AC hits. I guess if the album had been released in 1979 as origionally planned, then having a few disco songs were not the end of the world...but by 1980, disco was gone for the most part. And this album was a period piece but some of those songs, and unreleased songs are timeless...Making Love, If I Had You, Make Believe, Still Crazy, Truly You, Keep The Lovelight, Midnight...these all could be released today, marketed fully, with videos(of a Karen lookalike...) and grab ahold of a new audience. Part of doing a solo album is trying new stuff that you normally don't do, and this is what Karen was trying to do. Sing a new song, new tune, and explore other areas not known to you. Plus Karen spent 400,000 of her own money with A&M's 100,000...so for them not to release it was silly. They lost half a million dollars. I think had the album been released, it would have garnered her new fans, and the album would have eventually gone gold, or had a hit single...top 20...as Richard's choice of songs were diminishing drastically with songs not even making the top 50...so give Karen the chance, and I am sure she would have made it, had she had the support of all those around her. But she was caught in this world that seemed to trap her. And she did love her brother Richard. THe fact that she dedicates the album to him...Dedicated to my brother Richard with all my heart...shows the love and her belief in him. Now, if he had had the belief in her...well...

PS. My thoughts here are not meant to put others down or say that I am right...I just like to see all angles of the story.


My thoughts,
Cameron
[email protected]

 

[CraigGA]

I understand Harry's viewpoint. I feel that Karen should have gone with solo projects around 1976 to promote their image instead of giving critics ammunition with A Kind of Hush and Passage. I do however, defend some of the songs for Passage, such as B'wanna She No Home and wish that more of that light would have been persued, as in the solo project with Still Crazy, Guess I Just Lost My Head, etc. I feel that Richard was too concerned over his recognition rather than what would have helped their image, but that is what managers are for. When groups like the Captain and Tennille came on board, the Carpenters would have benefited from a different direction as mentioned above. After all, they were the first of their kind in the early 70's that paved the path for the others.

We have been gifted as fans, hearing 'new to us' songs that have been released over the years that keeps Karen alive to us. Imagine how Richard feels knowing that there has been a deafing silence for him since her death in his world.

Craig

 

[davidgra]

Count me in the group that feels A&M made the right decision in 1980...

Artists who released disco records in 1980 were ridiculed by the press and the public. The harder-edged, post-disco sound of Blondie, Pat Benatar, and yes, even Olivia Newton-John ("Magic" was a #1 hit in 1980) had eclipsed the mega-popularity of the Bee Gees and Donna Summer.

In my opinion, Karen's solo album could have been salvaged (at the time) by dumping tracks like "Lovelines" and "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind," and cutting new tracks more along the lines of "Still In Love With You" and "Making Love in the Afternoon." Phil Ramone was doing terrific work with Billy Joel in 1980 (GLASS HOUSES); an album with more of that "edge" for Karen might have actually worked.

But, of course, it also could have bombed disastrously. The Carpenters were having an image problem at the time...

In retrospect, KAREN CARPENTER is a wonderful album to have in the Carpenters' catalog, having historic significance. But I agree that releasing it in 1980 would have been a bad move.

David

 

[PJ]

Whole Solo Recordings Saga Make Little Sense

Ideally Some of the Original Selected Tracks , STILL CRAZY , IF I HAD YOU , MAKE BELIEVE , ETC Plus Some OUTTAKES , I DO IT , SOMETHING'S MISSING, KEEP YOUR LOVELIGHT .....Would Have Made for a Better Album

Combination of Delays with Completion / Release, Richard's Return to Music Making , A&M's Change of Music Policy and Lack of Support for this Project Plus Karen's / Ramone's Shock at Attitudes & Responses Sealed 1980 Fate

Release in 1983 or later in the 1980's Would Still Have Been Better than Very Delayed 1996 Issue

Peter

 

[Chris]

I agree that taking out songs like "My Body Keeps Changing My Mind" and "Lovelines" and replacing them with some of the outtakes would have made a much better album.

Hearing Harry talk about the soft rock station he was at in the early 80's, and how hardly any Carpenters got played at all, makes me grateful for our popular local soft rock station here in New Orleans. They played the Carpenters in heavy rotation throughout the 80's. You could hear a Carpenters song at least once an hour. Not only were the hits played, but you could hear songs like "You", "A Song For You", "I Can Dream Can't I" and "Don't Cry For Me Argentina". It was heaven. I'll always cherish those memories. It made it easy to hear Karen wherever and whenever. They still played Carpenters through some of the 90s. It was only around 1998 that the Carpenters were completely dropped from that station. Of course they also completely dropped all Barry Manilow, Neil Diamond, Streisand, etc.

"If I Had You" got some significant air play here in 1989 on a couple of stations. I only heard "You're The One" once, and the DJ said, "Yes, that is Karen Carpenter. We always get a lot of calls when we play that one."

 

[thestitch]

Funny thing that you should mention "You're the One", Chris. I happen to think that's an absolutely beautiful song! It gives me chills to listen to it.

Karen's solo album is a very good addition to my collection of all things "Carpentersesque". However, I still find myself playing other albums and not her solo album. Many of the tracks on it are just not suited very well to her voice. In addition, I feel that Richard really knew how to showcase her voice. This album is just not up to snuff!! It is interesting in retrospect.

Marilyn
online, and enjoying NJs lovely spring day!!

 

[CraigGA]

It is not You're the One that is a good song, it is the way Karen's voice and interpretation breathed life into it. Without her, it is simply an incipid love song. Not that it matters, but I loved My Body Keeps..., I just wished it was out during the "Hustle" days before Donna and the disco diaries were set in stone. The other disco songs are sometimes hard to listen to, except for Karen's overdubbs, which are an art form in themselves.

Craig

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Regarding the Solo Album, I think Peter said it best....

"Release in 1983 or later in the 1980's Would Still Have Been Better than Very Delayed 1996 Issue"



I can't seem to shake the regret that I felt knowing that someone held onto this album for way too long.

I spoke very vocally about this very subject back on Ran's old carpenters board at roadeode. It got rather hot & heavy as I remember, but mostly it got some really great discussion going, something that everyone can learn from.

Being an Olivia fan, I was hurt when I read what was inscribed in the Ray Coleman book regarding Karen playing these solo tracks to Richard while Olivia was present. I'm sorry but call me sentimental but Karen was hurt. So much that she took that hurt all the way to the evening before she passed away by calling Phil & saying how she thought the solo project was great.

I think we also have to remember a few points here:

Karen did this only because Richard was getting help, What was Karen going to do, she was not the kind to sit & do nothing. Then Richard gave his blessing & agreed yes go ahead & do it. Was he envious of how the project turned out because he wasn't there? We don't know. Karen didn't all of a sudden say OMG I wanted go solo & this is what I'm gonna do.

Another obvious point is the public didn't get this album until very late from when it was recorded, the times changed, people changed, the music industry totally changed & then we have the public who critized not only the solo project but Karen for doing this. Not the fans, but the media, I've read some not so nice reviews. This album was not meant to hit the charts or even come close "when it was released in the middle 90's" The material was dated. It is just a keepsake for the fans.

I am very happy that Richard finally gave his blessing to Phil to go ahead & release this album. But a part of me still feels uneasy about why Richard held on to it so long while he felt his solo album (Time) was worthy of release before Karen's.

 

[Harry]

Karen may very well have thought that her solo effort was the best thing since sliced bread -- from what I've read, she was very proud of it. We all have favorite music that everyone else scratches their head about -- our personal tastes are all very different. That still doesn't mean that the solo album would've been a good thing for her/their careers back in 79/80 - nor good for the record company. Had it been released and really damaged Carpenters career, we might never have gotten MAID IN AMERICA or VOICE OF THE HEART (at least not in the forms we know them today) -- we'll never know.

I will agree that a late 80's release might have been nice, but we all know what happened there -- Richard, in looking for material for a 20th anniversary release, ame up with LOVELINES, culling somde of the tracks from the solo albums, and tinkering with them to boot. So that action delayed the project further.

Earlier in the decade, I suspect he didn't want a Karen solo album competing with his own solo TIME effort.

Harry
...with temps in the 90s today, and heading down to the 40s tomorrow, (It's SPRING!), online...

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Maybe Richard will fiddle with some of the unreleased tracks & include them of a new set for the future.

We all know how Richard can perform miracles in the studio, he is very good at that. There a a few of the unreleased tracks that he could really polish up & make them sound so much better. There is more for him to work with regarding material, her lead is all there on the unreleased tracks. But who owns them? Richard or Phil? Does it matter?

 

[kennyv]

Though not personally fond of her solo project, I still admired her adventurous and courageous undertaking of this. "All you need to tell me is something's not normal and I'll go for it"...that's our Karen!! and I'm always proud of her. Given the chance to release her 2nd solo album, she would have found the edge that leaves a legacy besides being a successful duo. Baby I believe you....Karen.

 

[Only Yesterday]

I think that it waw a shame the album wasn't released! It's impossible that Making Love In The Afternoon, If I Had You or If We Try wouldn't been hits had they been released by that time.

Though I love My Body... and Lovelines I have to agree that by 1980 they wouldn't fit very well. In My opinion that album should be:

1. Killing Me Softly With This Song (Karen loved that music)
2. It's Really You
3. If I Had You
4. Making Love In The Afternoon (Firsrt single)
5. If We Try (Karen favorite and second single)
6. Remember When Loving Took All Night
7. Still In Love With You
8. Don't Try To Win Me Back Again
9. Make Believe It's Your First Time
10.All Because Of You
11.Midnight
12.Look To Your Dreams (Karen always liked that one)

Maybe C's fan might not got much hooked, but they would buy for some songs, and for sure people didn't like the Cs would look at them at diferent way!

 

[mr J.]

I think it's basically pointless going on and on about the "might have been" theories regarding Karen's solo album.The album has been on the market now for 7 years,and it remains Karen's worst selling album.It wasn't a good album in 1980,and it's certainly not a good album today.(aside from 2 good tracks-"Make Believe" and "If We Try".)Several people above have been questioning the merits of A KIND OF HUSH and PASSAGE,in comparison with the solo album.HUSH and PASSAGE aren't great albums,but their far superior to anything on Karen's solo album.In fact,there's plenty of solo material on the Carpenter's albums.Listen to "B'wana she no home"-Karen is very much riding solo here-and she's jazzy,sensual,hip-everything the solo album pretends to be!I think most people have satisfied their curiousity with the solo album,and in all likelihood,it will be out of print within a few years.

 

[Mark-T]

I always thought "Side Two" of the solo album was the standout- esp. "Last One Singin the Blues" and "Still Crazy".
Actually, as a whole, I think the solo album is a fun listen.
I think "Remember When Loving Took All Night" was cheap and should have been replaced with "I Do It For Your Love".
In summary, not my favorite album, but far from terrible.
Mark

 

[Only Yesterday]

I really love Hush and Passage, but after a while I have to be sincere, the album solo is an artist's achievement than both, not only because of the change of direction, but also for variety and concept.

I mean, Hush is lovely, but is like Richard used the same arragment for all tracks on it, as he says it lacks of energy and deep. Passage is very well arranged, but some songs don't run nice together, like if it was a bunch of songs glued together.

Karen's solo has the energy of Passage and run very well, like Hush. And don't think it's fair compare its seeling with the old albums, when the promotion was FAR WAY BIGGER!

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Well I think it's unfair to compare her Solo Album to any of the Carpenters albums. First Richard was not there & second, it wasn't meant to be compared to the C albums and third were hearing this, what? 15 years after it was recorded? It's obvious she recorded this when she really should have been getting help, but none-the-less here it is.

It's far from terrible & like someone mentioned it's a fun listen. I'm not ashamed to admit that I pick up Karen's Solo CD & Her Unreleased Solo Tracks CD more than I pick up a Carpenters CD.

It shows me there was a different side to Karen & one that I like hearing.

 

[cam89]

Yes, I agree. This was Karen's solo album. I don't compare Richard's solo album with a Carpenters album because it wouldn't make any sense to me. I think with solo work, that is what is is...A SOLO...getting away from your partner or group...and doing something by yourself. I definately prefer Karen's to Richard's any day. I feel that Karen's voice is so contemporary sounding. Especially her tracks like MAKING LOVE IN THE AFTERNOON, LAST ONE SINGING THE BLUES, ALL BECAUSE OF YOU and IF WE TRY. Very similar to things that artists are recording now. I don't understand why they don't release a tune and try to get some airplay. I remember in 1996-1997 the song MAKING LOVE IN THE AFTERNOON was getting airplay where I lived a lot. It was neat to hear Karen singing in this day and age. Her voice was timeless, especially with new artists like Norah Jones, Diana Krall and Jewel invading the airwaves with their attractive voices. Of course, in my opinion, Karen could sweep their rugs with her voice! No one could ever replace Karen's voice. And no one should. I am still very proud of the fact that the Carpenters had 15 Number One Adult Contemporary Hits, second to Elton John. Even after all these years.

My jumbled thoughts,
Cameron
[email protected]

 

[SwimAMile]

If memory serves, I recall reading an article in Billboard around the time Karen was in New York recording the project. The "rumor" was that she was doing a solo project without Richard's blessing but that it had a "killer" rendition of Still Crazy.

Personally, I think the solo project fails to capture much of Karen's potential. I realize this is a matter of taste, so I'm not implying that others' opinions of the album are in error. Each time I listen to it, I still think Karen is trying to "find" something that she could call her own, as opposed to deciding how she wished to be identified and going from there. But that's just me talking.

I was also well aware of the negative opinions of Carpenters music at the time, even though I didn't share them. I think history has shown that Richard was clearly ahead of his time, but, frankly, I think "catering" to the tastes of the time for one or two cuts would not have been a bad idea. Besides, a longer term view of Karen's voice and sustainability would have taken pressure off of them for those annual releases they did for awhile, even if the record labels wouldn't have been as happy. And I think a strategy of at least 2 Top40 cuts, with the rest as they desired and biannual releases would have mitigated much of the negative reaction.

Can you imagine how popular they would have (eventually) been doing 40's and 50's standards alone, given how they have been embraced by the twenty-something crowd? Their Music Music special could have pushed a trend in itself if it had spawned some "Standards" specials with legends of that period. Who knew....

But, back to my starting point...I believe that the label "should" have released Still Crazy as a single without implying it would be a solo project. That tune would have worked well within a Carpenters album and would have tested the waters for a change of pace. I think such a remake at that time would have definitely been "something to talk about." Personally, I do think it's a killer rendition...

Call me crazy...LOL

 

[CraigGA]

From the material I have read, Karen's solo album was to gain a new group of fans which would in turn aid in the credibility of their musicianship and image that the soft sugar songs were tarnishing. It was not necessarily intened to cater to the fan base of the Carpenters. There are fine songs from that project and with the correct marketing and timing while she was alive would have aided in the units sold. I am sure it was difficult to create a sound where Richard's absence was not felt, since her best was already given to the Carpenters sound. However, Still Crazy, and the Singin the Blues song would have also been good Carpenters songs, but the orchestration would have been totally different with Richard. That song blew my mind when I first heard it and still does to this day and is one of my all time favorite Karen songs.

There are not many artists that can be made into a total different product with range experimentation and artistist style as Karen displayed with this project. If it had been finished, I feel that the project would shed a different light. It sometimes takes a while for a new sound to be discovered and developed within a performer, as with Sheryl Crow taking two projects to finally find her plight into pop culture.

Craig

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Craig, very well said.

Sheryl Crow is a prime example of this, even after her first record she still didn't get the exposure she has now.

This was Karen's first project, think of all the weight that must have been on Karen's shoulders venturing into something like this. There are so many things to think about. With a 2nd solo album & then a 3rd who knows what would have happened.

My bet is it would have developed into something big, this little project and another solo could have opened up alot of doors for her, musicals, theatre, tv movies, duets cd's with other artists...etc etc etc.