Jack A.
Well-Known Member
I still find that hard to believe, but who knows…
Olivia and Karen in the Recording Studio*
- Thread starter actcrna
- Start date
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
It's realistic to think that they both would have been a little nervous - even with their combined years of experience - and concerned about "measuring up" or "holding their own"...Btw, I can’t imagine Ella being concerned about measuring up to Karen.She’d been recording since the 1930s and everything would have been second nature to her. She would have been quietly confident that she could hold her own in any situation, I’m sure, but, in Ella’s beautiful way, wouldn’t have been cocky or conceited.
Karen, of course, singing with one of her idols, the legendary Ella, First Lady of Song...probably everyone who sang with Ella was nervous, maybe even other greats like Frank Sinatra...
But just maybe Ella too - she was 63 at the time of MMM, and while she still had the technique and styling in her vocals and still had most of her tonal appeal (as we heard during the duet) she probably had lost a little of her power and breath control thru aging, which would have been natural. She had reached her peak and done her best recording back in the 50s. I know. I have them.
According to one report Ella had all of the Carpenter's recordings. I don't know if that is true. But, by 1980 she was assuredly well aware of Karen's vocal prowess, especially her tonal warmth, the loveliness of her voice, it's "richness". Any singer, no matter how good or experienced - no matter how excellent their technique or vocal stylings - would have been a tad concerned about matching up with that richness, Karen's incredible vocal appeal.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
That’s the point though - Karen had an unfair advantage over Ella by lip synching to a recording that had been done on a professional studio mic, in a recording environment, where her finished vocal could then be mixed and sweetened by Richard to his heart’s content. Why didn’t she just sing live? Had she done so, that section right at the end of the medley, where they sing out of time with one another, would not have happened, because she could have reacted to what Ella was singing in real time and matched her.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Well, that's just it - why the hell didn't she just sing live? That was my original question. Fear of "measuring up"? Possible, but unlikely, given her talent & experience. Vocal cord problems or head cold infection? No reports of that. Trouble remembering the lyrics of those unfamiliar standards? She knew those songs & there weren't that many. Pressure from Richard who was, for some strange reason, worried about how she would stack up against Ella? Maybe - given his need for control - the most plausible explanation...and if Richard was the reason then the ultimate fault is her's - she should have told him where he could stuff his "control" and sung the duet live.
Karen was and Richard IS a perfectionist. Chances are they were both fine with it. Karen happily acknowledges Ella's efforts by clapping at the end of each take, which you don't see often at the end of a duet. I'm sure she would loved to have done it 'live', but Richard wouldn't even dream of it due to the sound challenges that would have created. They both needed to loosen up from time to time, but that wasn't really their style. They did things 'by the book'. Almost always.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Yes, it was really nice to see Karen clap so enthusiastically at the end, overjoyed at their joint performance. She also grasped Ella's hand, and then threw her own head back in sheer delight (the only time I've seen her more ecstatic was at certain times when she was drumming). Of course, Ella had already given Karen a really nice compliment by saying "So pretty" during Karen's rendition of "Someone To Watch Over Me".
I would still love to have seen Karen sing THIS duet live, if no other. And it might be just a small stretch to believe that Ella's agreeing to sing with someone lip-synching (did she ever do that before?) is a testament to how much she admired Karen and how much she really wanted to sing with her - no matter what.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
Studio Karen pretty much always sounded better than she did live. It was always just a bit disappointing when seeing them in concert. The overdubbed voices, and studio harmonies weren’t there, or couldn’t be sung live. With the exception of Richard, the band couldn’t duplicate their voices either. It made me cringe a little when the guys even tried. I think a female back up vocalist to compliment Karen would have been nice. Just for the live performances. Her duets with Ella and Perry are pure heaven to me. Richard knew that recording her parts in the studio was the best way to showcase Karen’s voice. The medley from Music,Music, Music is still one of my top 10 favorites of anything that’s been released. Her version of Make It Easy On Yourself, is… 
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Yes, a female backup vocalist with a contrasting, yet complimentary, voice would have been great, both in concert and in the studio (negating the need to double-track Karen's voice)...
I love her take (and Richard's arrangement and harmonizing) on MAKE IT EASY...the version on MMM is good, but IMHO the best version I've heard is on the Bacharach Medley recorded live in Las Vegas in 1974...but then she nails the whole extended medley!
I love her take (and Richard's arrangement and harmonizing) on MAKE IT EASY...the version on MMM is good, but IMHO the best version I've heard is on the Bacharach Medley recorded live in Las Vegas in 1974...but then she nails the whole extended medley!
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
What sound challenges would there have been? Ella managed just fine.
I said exactly this a few posts back. And there was no need for any overdubbing of Carpenters backgrounds on the track to support a live Karen lead vocal, because there were no backing vocals on the entire medley.
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Funny.... I have the opposite view. When I listen to their live stuff, I tend to think Richard was the weak spot in live background vocals, but he's great in the studio. To me, live Karen was just as good as studio Karen. Her live vocal of "From This Moment On" at New London is incredible. Maybe the limitation was in the audio equipment technology available to them at the time for live performances plus the acoustics of the venues? Imagine if they had what Taylor Swift is using today. Those in-ear monitors you see musicians and singers using..... Supposedly in-ear monitors allow singers to sing more accurately. If Karen and Richard had those, would their live sound been better? Karen didn't need it probably.
I think the answer to your question is in the new KC doc (that can't seem to get a streamer deal unfortunately). I haven't seen it yet, but I remember reading or listening to something tied to it where ONJ said it was one great regret she had... that she and Karen never sang together. She said they each were so busy. They couldn't get their schedules lined up. Their voices a poor match? Nah..... The whole point of a duet between superstar singers is having the thrill of hearing them interpret a lyric/melody with their own unique, distinctive voices. (I guess I'm in the minority, but I enjoyed KC with Peter Cetera)
On the subject of duets, give a listen to Dolly Parton singing "Let It Be" with Sir Paul, Ringo, Peter Frampton/guitar, and Mick Fleetwood/drums. Released to Youtube a couple of days ago. I can imagine Karen singing this had she lived. No AI needed.
ullalume
Well-Known Member
Good idea.Studio Karen pretty much always sounded better than she did live. It was always just a bit disappointing when seeing them in concert. The overdubbed voices, and studio harmonies weren’t there, or couldn’t be sung live. With the exception of Richard, the band couldn’t duplicate their voices either. It made me cringe a little when the guys even tried. I think a female back up vocalist to compliment Karen would have been nice. Just for the live performances. Her duets with Ella and Perry are pure heaven to me. Richard knew that recording her parts in the studio was the best way to showcase Karen’s voice. The medley from Music,Music, Music is still one of my top 10 favorites of anything that’s been released. Her version of Make It Easy On Yourself, is…
Since they'd used Siedah Garrett in 1980 for Kiss Me maybe she could've featured in their planned '83 tour, though by then Siedah was pretty in demand.
Richard said some shelved songs from MIA would feature in the '83 album. Surely this would've been one of them. Maybe she and Karen could've done a duet on this one in concert.
All what ifs, of course...
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Live Karen vs Studio Karen?
Was there a difference? Yes, there often was, and it would have been highly unusual if there hadn't been. It would have taken perfect conditions precisely controlled over time for it to be otherwise.
Live Karen was frequently exhausted from far too much touring, too many concerts, and probably trying her best to avoid vocal strain or other complications that singing night after night, week after week could have caused. From a certain point on she was also suffering the effects of malnutrition which had to have sapped her overall physical strength and endurance, and taken its toll on the force and quality of her vocalization in concert.
Studio Karen was mostly rested and working under controlled conditions that were ideal for singing, but she was often the (mostly willing) victim of technical gimmicky there that did very little to display her real, natural voice, and frequently distorted it to one extent or another.
So, it was potentially possible that in an ideal world Live Karen and Studio Karen could have sounded consistently alike - but given the reality of the conditions under which she labored it was virtually impossible.
And this was the longest running tragedy for Karen Carpenter...and for her adoring worldwide fans.
Was there a difference? Yes, there often was, and it would have been highly unusual if there hadn't been. It would have taken perfect conditions precisely controlled over time for it to be otherwise.
Live Karen was frequently exhausted from far too much touring, too many concerts, and probably trying her best to avoid vocal strain or other complications that singing night after night, week after week could have caused. From a certain point on she was also suffering the effects of malnutrition which had to have sapped her overall physical strength and endurance, and taken its toll on the force and quality of her vocalization in concert.
Studio Karen was mostly rested and working under controlled conditions that were ideal for singing, but she was often the (mostly willing) victim of technical gimmicky there that did very little to display her real, natural voice, and frequently distorted it to one extent or another.
So, it was potentially possible that in an ideal world Live Karen and Studio Karen could have sounded consistently alike - but given the reality of the conditions under which she labored it was virtually impossible.
And this was the longest running tragedy for Karen Carpenter...and for her adoring worldwide fans.
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One of the problems with "live" versus "recording" is that a live setting is supposed to be just that - live. Karen sings into a mic, it's amplified, we in the live audience hear it. Once. It sounds great.
So what is done with that live singing? It's recorded! And that recording is what we end up listening to over and over again. So any little nuance that's added to Karen's delivery is magnified by the number of times we hear it. So while it was fun to hear Karen slide into "Lo - o - O - O - ng ago, and oh so far away", or hearing her alter the pronunciation of "We've only chist begun", I personally dislike hearing those multiple times.
So what is done with that live singing? It's recorded! And that recording is what we end up listening to over and over again. So any little nuance that's added to Karen's delivery is magnified by the number of times we hear it. So while it was fun to hear Karen slide into "Lo - o - O - O - ng ago, and oh so far away", or hearing her alter the pronunciation of "We've only chist begun", I personally dislike hearing those multiple times.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Of course, the other major problem with getting live performances to sound just like, or almost like, studio recordings is obviously the acoustical surroundings - a recording booth in a studio is a unique, controlled environment acoustically speaking, while the acoustics (and hence the quality of sound, including a singing voice) in live theater performances can be either good, mediocre or bad and can vary quite a lot depending on the theaters in question.
The best that one could probably do would be to make all other factors equal, i.e., not introduce any other extraneous differentiating technical factors of any kind, especially in the studio.
The best that one could probably do would be to make all other factors equal, i.e., not introduce any other extraneous differentiating technical factors of any kind, especially in the studio.
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Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
My all time favorite Live Karen recording is the Bacharach Medley during a show at the Riviera Las Vegas in 1974 found on Anthology. Richard mixed a few things later however the lead of course is from the original tape. BBC 1971 live over tape (except for a couple) is a close second, but this Riviera recording is exceptionally good.
