SELF-REFERENCING/FATALISM IN CARPENTERS

[ullalume]

It's long been known to me that the Carpenters often reference songs, music, or the song-writing process in many of their tracks.

There's Yesterday Once More, the mother of them all, but then All You Get..., At the End of a song, I Can't Make Music, You, A Song For You, Those Good Old Dreams, I Have You, Another Song, Sing, Piano Picker and others.

I think why this strikes a chord in me is that it backs up my argument that the Carpenters were basically fatalists. I think both, especially Karen, felt that we're all doomed. Existentialists, if you will, and this referencing allows the distance of alienation. I think both accepted fate in their unconscious, yet Karen still had that sense of hope, denial led or otherwise, that allows a little light in the distance, shining out from the melancholia that overwhelms most of their best recordings.

When she sang of hope and love and happiness there was always, to me, a note of irony as she sang, she really wanted to believe, but deep down didn't. I think the same, to a lesser extent for Richard, hence the constant themes of "yesterday was great" tomorrow will be great", because basically today is pretty rancid.

By commenting on songs it takes us out of the track for a second, and experience the disillusionment that they felt, particularly Karen.

Of course I'm presuming alot. I didn't know K or R. This is just what I get from their recorded material.

Well that's the end of my rant. I think it's this distance, yet a truly real distance, and that yearning for "things will be O.K." when we know they really won't, that makes me love their stuff so much.

Thoughts anyone.

 

[Bruno]

Very interesting thoughts, Neil.

Many Carpenters songs, especially the early ones, are in a melancholic or sometimes even in a depressive mood. When I grew up, I had my share of depressions, and it was good to listen to those Carpenters songs then. Just like Elton John told us in his song SAD SONGS SAY SO MUCH.

But there are many other Carpenters songs, which are very upbeat and happy: TOP OF THE WORLD, HAPPY, SWEET SWEET SMILE and others. To those songs I like to listen, when I'm in a happy mood, or I listen to them to lift me up, when I'm down.

So, I think, Karen and Richard sang of the ups and downs in life.

But it's true: Karen's voice has this yearning for a happier life in it - in many songs. I think, she was a very unhappy woman, and this shines through her voice. But I wouldn't call this fatalism or existentialism. I call it depression.

Bruno
analyzing Carpenters

 

[ullalume]

Nice to hear a reply.

Yet, when you think about it, any real philosophical stance only exists in the way in which someone perceives it. Chemical imbalances, the real cause of mental illness (got it myself), can therefore surely result in that person exhibiting symptons that one could see as being a particular philosophy, whether they subscribe to it or not.

Anyway, we're all crazy aren't we.

Thanks mate,

Neil

 

[Harry]

Keep in mind folks, that Carpenters were a musical duo, performing and recording what they thought was the best material of the day - essentially just trying to sell records.

Some songs were written by others, and very few lyrics were ever actually written by either Karen or Richard. There are a few spooky moment, sure - like in "A Song For You" or "I Need To Be In Love", but really, I think they are just coincidences.

Harry
NP: radio at work

 

[ullalume]

True enough, but why those particular songs, and why those particular interpretations.

Trying not to read too much into things,

Neil

 

[alpertfan]

From watching the "Behind The Music" and "E! True Hollywood Story", it seems that Karen Carpenter's personality was the antithesis of the songs on the Carpenters' albums. I almost wonder if Jack Daugherty or her brother (being the producers) had to force it out of her to make it sound genuine. In plain English, she didn't believe what she was singing. I've never heard the songs from the solo album or know their titles, but I gathered from the "E! True Hollywood Story" that she was glad to get a chance to record songs that were different from Richard's style and lyricism, which leads me to believe that she thought, "Finally, songs that speak of how I really feel", which is why I think that the album didn't attract executives. A&M was the first record company where finally, artists were judged from the point of view of a fellow artist (Herb Alpert). He signed people because as an artist himself, he liked their sound. The Carpenters seemed to have been no different.

Just my theory.

 

[SwimAMile]

While I happen to believe that all we do stems from our psyche, I would like to remind everyone of the 70's angst. We lived through a presidential resignation, outrageous inflation and interest rates, and Carter's "malaise." Need I go on? LOL Thank God that era ended, although the fashions and colors seem ready to doom us again.

It wasn't until after Karen's death that the country's mood brightened considerably.

In other words, I think Harry's comments correctly ground the discussion.

However, I would not disagree with alpertfan's observations either. If these were literary works, such anaylsis would be the subject of curriculum.

 

[song4u]

But it's true: Karen's voice has this yearning for a happier life in it - in many songs. I think, she was a very unhappy woman, and this shines through her voice. But I wouldn't call this fatalism or existentialism. I call it depression. . . . Bruno

I agree with your comment (above) Bruno. I have often wondered how someone as young as Karen was in 1970 (19-20) could convey such melancholia in her voice if she didn't feel it from somewhere inside herself. I still wonder what may happened in her youth to provoke that quality.

Since reading how many other people were attracted to the Carpenters' music in adolescence, as I was, I've wondered if maybe it's that sadness that attracted us as it commiserated with our adolescent angst.

Also, in the early years when their careers were up-up-up, no eating disorder was in evidence. I'm told that performing on stage can be a real adrenaline rush/endorphin booster. It was when the record sales began to falter and their popularity waned a bit that she became so ill. I still wish that she would have gotten out at that point and had a "real" life of her own; even if it meant missing the music that came later. She deserved to be happy.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I have to agree with Harry...I think that it's really easy to add two and two and get five when it comes to analyzing the body of work that Richard and Karen left behind. While it is true that artists look inside themselves for material sometimes, there are other outside influences, as well...other producers, writers, engineers...even lawyers sometimes influence what goes into a song. The artist doesn't always get to say everything they really want to...and it isn't always a good idea to take the lyrics at face value.

I also remember that just after Jim Croce died, TIME IN A BOTTLE was either on the charts or just coming off of them, and a lot of people thought that it was more than coincidence...but he'd actually written the song at least a year before the plane crash, and it really was a coincidence that it was popular at that particular time.

You can read anything into anything any time...especially after a tragedy, and Karen's death certainly was that. I've read a lot about what she was supposed to be like, and how she supposedly viewed life, and I have to take it all with a grain of salt, because all the stories were written "after the fact" and not by Karen herself...and it will never be possible for her to define or defend herself.


I admit that I don't listen to the Carpenters much anymore, because it's still saddening for me to do so, even after 20 years. And, I can't listen without feeling empty inside because of the loss of one so young and talented from an illness that people just don't seem to understand...I don't think that anyone could listen to the Carpenters and not feel that way...at least a little...and that overshadows the music. The sadness is there.

But I don't think it's IN the music...I think we've put it there ourselves.


And, I'm as guilty as anyone else.


Dan

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I admit that I don't listen to the Carpenters much anymore, because it's still saddening for me to do so, even after 20 years. And, I can't listen without feeling empty inside because of the loss of one so young and talented from an illness that people just don't seem to understand...I don't think that anyone could listen to the Carpenters and not feel that way...at least a little...and that overshadows the music. The sadness is there.

I agree that there is sadness in alot of the songs. However I look at it a little differently. I actually find comfort in still listening to there music. I couldn't imagine not listening to there music. It makes me happy to enjoy the legacy that was left behind. It's almost like a security blanket for me, there is a warmth I get inside & a closeness to there music even though I never met them in person or saw them live, I still feel the connection & it's comforting to me.

 

[song4u]

The artist doesn't always get to say everything they really want to...and it isn't always a good idea to take the lyrics at face value.

You're right, there are many things that can influence a singer. When you look at a painting you get a feeling about the artist because of the way they expressed themselves, regardless of the subject. What I was referring to is the ambience - the flavor of her voice, so tinged with sadness. Not the lyrics. I think there was a real sadness there that she expressed when she sang.

 

[Dave]

Yes, an artists body of work can reveal inner-most feelings and an inner-most view of the world.

The Capenters songs have always had that sort of melancholy quality in the lyrics and delivery.

And consequently, those listening, I'm sure can relate very well to the way any artist can express him/herself in poetry and song and in drawings and paintings, just by being a listener or observer or "audience" as well.

Dave

...ready to weigh in my comments in the "Demographics Thread" here, too...

 

[Chris]

As song4u said, it wasn't so much just the lyrics of certain songs, but the actual feeling of sadness that came from the sound of Karen's voice and the melodies. I was thinking about the subject of this thread and listening to the Carpenters as I was driving into work this morning. While listening to "We've Only Just Begun" I was struck by the sadness that is expressed in the sound of that whole performance. Even though the lyrics are full of hope and new beginnings, when you listen to the music and Karen's vocal, it's filled with a spirit of melancholy. Such an achingly beautiful longing and sadness is expressed in the spirit of that record.

It's no wonder that so many of us found solace in their music when we were young or going through loneliness, pain, longing, etc. I think that within Karen, many of us found a kindred spirit. Someone who was a friend and comfort by not only providing us with some of the most beautiful sounds on earth, but someone who knew what we were going through on some level and could express it for us. She was the caged bird who sang for our own heavy hearts.

 

[W.B.]

I also remember that just after Jim Croce died, TIME IN A BOTTLE was either on the charts or just coming off of them, and a lot of people thought that it was more than coincidence...but he'd actually written the song at least a year before the plane crash, and it really was a coincidence that it was popular at that particular time.

Indeed, "Time In A Bottle" had been featured in (on?) his first ABC album from 1972, You Don't Mess Around With Jim; its release as a single not long after his death coincided with its being featured in some TV-movie at the time, and of course it zoomed to the top. But there did seem to be some irony in terms of the timing of the single's release and its message -- albeit not necessarily on Mr. Croce's part.

 

[ullalume]

I'm really interested in all that's been said here, and when I started the subject it was just that, a subject, and the "after the fact issue" is very true.

I am reading things in, and you're right, everything means something, and nothing means anything.

BUT FACT, Karen was destroying herself due to a crippling depression. And no matter what external influences shaped what they put out as recorded material, why did it sound the way it sounded, why did they interpret it the way they did. We can argue the NATURE/NURTURE argument till the end of time, but keep in ming this is my opinion, and nothing more.

Looking forward to hearing more thoughts. By the way, whoever wrote the curriculum comment, I expect homework to be on my desk monday morning, 9 o'clock sharp.

Neil

 

[Harry]

By the way, whoever wrote the curriculum comment, I expect homework to be on my desk monday morning, 9 o'clock sharp.

Sorry, here in the US, Monday is a holiday! No school!

Harry

 

[ullalume]

Curses. My witticisms foiled again.

Neil

In the U.K. where we need more holidays

 

[Bruno]

Two thoughts:

Neil, I don't think, that all mental illnesses come from chemical imbalances in the brain. Some surely do, but in my opinion most mental illnesses come from traumata in childhood or youth. I know, that this is the never ending discussion between neurologists and psychoanalysists, but I just want to tell my point of view here.

Chris, I agree with what you wrote. When I'm down, it's comforting to listen to a song, where my sad mood is reflected. And if the singer sings the song truly, then it's even more comforting.

Listen to Elton John's song SAD SONGS: "When every bit of hope is gone, then it's easier to have those songs around."

Or listen to PARADISE CAFE by Barry Manilow:"Forget the love you almost had. But if you must remember, the way it left you, we'll make it feel good to feel bad." I think, that's what the blues is all about.

Bruno
fascinating thread!

 

[ullalume]

Looked back at my original note and your absolutely right, not all depression is chemical based.

Anyway, I think we're heading into a terrain perhaps not too closely related to the Carpenters, so I'm signing off.

Great discussion though.

Neil

 

[song4u]

It's no wonder that so many of us found solace in their music when we were young or going through loneliness, pain, longing, etc. I think that within Karen, many of us found a kindred spirit. Someone who was a friend and comfort by not only providing us with some of the most beautiful sounds on earth, but someone who knew what we were going through on some level and could express it for us. She was the caged bird who sang for our own heavy hearts.
and
Chris, I agree with what you wrote. When I'm down, it's comforting to listen to a song, where my sad mood is reflected. And if the singer sings the song truly, then it's even more comforting.

Listen to Elton John's song SAD SONGS: "When every bit of hope is gone, then it's easier to have those songs around."

Or listen to PARADISE CAFE by Barry Manilow:"Forget the love you almost had. But if you must remember, the way it left you, we'll make it feel good to feel bad." I think, that's what the blues is all about.

Bruno
fascinating thread!

Chris, you put that so beautifully. ::chills::
That is so true Bruno. By contrast, there are some songs that are just too painful for me to listen to because they evoke painful memories. :: :|

 

[Dave]

Yes, an artists body of work can reveal inner-most feelings and an inner-most view of the world.

The Capenters songs have always had that sort of melancholy quality in the lyrics and delivery.

And consequently, those listening, I'm sure can relate very well to the way any artist can express him/herself in poetry and song and in drawings and paintings, just by being a listener or observer or "audience" as well.

Dave

And without deviating from K&R or digressing from the topic too much, I thought I'd add the Sergio Mendes albums on Bell, as well maybe their first on Elektra exhibited that sadness, as well. HOMECOOKING at least brought out or returned that optomistic quality of the earlier stuff. But maybe we should start a thread in that Forum for more on them.

And to me, anyone whose albums were produced by Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter (like Glen Campbell, Evie Sands, The Grass Roots, The Tavares, Four Tops, Dusty Springfield, etc.) or at least had done any of their songs seemed to emit that sad quality, too.

Dave

...doing some "Holiday Listening" of "All Things Self Referencing"...

 

[drmmergirl]

While listening to "We've Only Just Begun" I was struck by the sadness that is expressed in the sound of that whole performance. Even though the lyrics are full of hope and new beginnings, when you listen to the music and Karen's vocal, it's filled with a spirit of melancholy. quote]

Whoa!!! Hold on a second! We've only just begun is melancholic? Chris, you and I are 180 degrees apart on that song! That song, and "Top of the World" and many others, are very happy songs. I do not get a feeling of meloncholy at all from those songs, quite the opposite.

However, there is nothing better than listening to a crystal like female alto voice like Karen's. The lower her voice goes, the more "melancholy" it could sound. Like in Rainy Days and Mondays and Superstar. There is another song (forgot the name), that is melancholic. It says something about "I'd like to see her happy, before the winter comes. . . "

Many people on these sites say Karen seemed so sad and unhappy, yet, people that knew her tend to say that she was vibrant and happy, but unfulfilled somehow.
One guy in England says that he was having an affair with her and they had to keep it secret. He worked for A&M, right? He said that they had so much fun and that she had a really good personality.

Anyway, Karen did not succumb to drugs like others during her short stint as a pop star. Keeping your weight down is of prime importance to most pop stars, even today. At the time, who knew that a person would die from what all of us thought was "dieting." I remember a girl in college calling herself "The Chow Queen," because she was so proud of the fact that she could eat a complete cake, and throw it up right afterwards so as not to gain the weight. (I asked her if it still tasted good on the way up - Whoops)

Anyway, I think Carly Simon's voice sounds more melancholy than Karens.

 

[Dave]

Ah, reading the last post, I've stumbled on some songs that WERE very optomistic!

Yes, "Top Of The World" and "We've Only Just Begun" do have a lot of hope and promise. How about "Those Good Old Dreams", "Boat To Sail", "Jambalaya (On The Bayou)" "Please, Mr. Postman" and "Happy"? -- Somewhere In-Between??

OK, there were songs that weren't "fatalistic" -- and "self-referencing" in a very POSITIVE sense, too.

Dave

...keeping a very sunny and optomistic feeling, himself!!!

 

[Bruno]

Anorectics are known to put up a happy outside to hide their unhappy inside.

Bruno
anorexia nervosa is no diet, it's a mental illness that can kill