Steve Gadd On Karen's Solo Album

[JohnFB]

And began the chain of awful decisions regarding her solo effort. My first thought was "this album is called 'Karen Carpenter' and she's NOT playing the drums?" It's as conceivable as having a solo album where she only drums and never sings.

That's very conceivable - if she had lived and somewhere down the line, if only for something new and different, and to rekindle the fire in her chops she could have played drums only on an album by some all-star fusion or smooth jazz group...after all, that's where her training concentrated and the woman could kick ass...I'd sure as hell check it out!

 

[David A]

I think the bigger point here is that Phil urged her to get away from everything “familiar.” He was well-aware, as was she, that having her play drums would have made her all too comfortable and open to getting pulled back into the same-ol’ stylistically.

The more I've thought about this, the more I agree with this view. Karen may - or may not - have been "tired", and there may have been other reasons she chose not to drum (after all, she could have insisted on doing so, regardless of anyone else's view on the matter), but I think Karen was highly attuned to staying away from anything remotely sounding like Carpenters, to carve out her own creative place as well as avoid the notion that she was copying anything "Carpenters". IN MY OPINION, if so, she was mistaken; I doubt anyone thinks of "The Carpenters" and thinks of Karen's drumming as essential to their sound. In fact, she didn't even play on many of their biggest hits, someone else did.

 

[JohnFB]

...and there may have been other reasons she chose not to drum (after all, she could have insisted on doing so, regardless of anyone else's view on the matter)...

There were more than likely other reasons, or a group of them a ting in combination - see my post on the previous page...

And, yes, she could have played drums if she had insisted - but the same thing could easily be said about all of the previous Carpenter records - she could have played drums on all of the tracks on all of the albums - if she had insisted, no demanded - she had the power to have anything she wanted any way she wanted it.

, but I think Karen was highly attuned to staying away from anything remotely sounding like Carpenters, to carve out her own creative place as well as avoid the notion that she was copying anything "Carpenters". IN MY OPINION, if so, she was mistaken; I doubt anyone thinks of "The Carpenters" and thinks of Karen's drumming as essential to their sound. In fact, she didn't even play on many of their biggest hits, someone else did.

If she wanted to avoid any comparison to, or association with the Carpenters and their trademark sound why did she use multi-layered background vocals on most of the album's tracks? This was exactly what constituted the world famous "Carpenter Sound"...even Richard complained about this, and he knew his sound when he heard it.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

If she wanted to avoid any comparison to, or association with the Carpenters and their trademark sound why did she use multi-layered background vocals on most of the album's tracks? This was exactly what constituted the world famous "Carpenter Sound"...even Richard complained about this, and he knew his sound when he heard it.

She didn't use the Carpenters' sound. Rod Temperton had been arranging that way since the very beginning of his career. He'd been doing it since 1975 with the group he wrote, arranged, and played keys for: Heatwave. Go listen to nearly anything by them and you'll hear it. Richard's sound is based in choral music; Rod's is based in Jazz. Rod arranged like Rod arranges. Yes, using stacks of Karen may have been familiar but the entire vocal approach is different. Richard is a great vocal arranger but he did not invent harmony stacking.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

She didn't use the Carpenters' sound. Rod Temperton had been arranging that way since the very beginning of his career. He'd been doing it since 1975 with the group he wrote, arranged, and played keys for: Heatwave. Go listen to nearly anything by them and you'll hear it. Richard's sound is based in choral music; Rod's is based in Jazz. Rod arranged like Rod arranges. Yes, using stacks of Karen may have been familiar but the entire vocal approach is different. Richard is a great vocal arranger but he did not invent harmony stacking.

Ed

But the end result - the final music we hear coming off the vinyl - was more than "familiar". No matter what it was "based" on and no matter the "vocal approach" it was fairly close to being a duplication of the Carpenter Sound - Karen singing lead, Karen doubling (maybe tripling) that lead at points, and Karen stacked in the background. The only difference is that Richard was not there in the stacks.

Yes, the songs were different, and the beat was different on most of them, but the average fan wouldn't have made the fine distinction between Richard's and Rod's arrangement - it would have all sounded the same to the their "untutored and unsophisticated ears".

If Karen had really wanted to get away from or become independent of that sound she would have recorded an album of jazz standards with just piano, base & drums , and absolutely no doubling or stacking. How mind-blowing would that have been!?!

 

[newvillefan]

she had the power to have anything she wanted any way she wanted it.

But not, as it turned out, the power to insist the album was released.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

But the end result - the final music we hear coming off the vinyl - was more than "familiar". No matter what it was "based" on and no matter the "vocal approach" it was fairly close to being a duplication of the Carpenter Sound - Karen singing lead, Karen doubling (maybe tripling) that lead at points, and Karen stacked in the background. The only difference is that Richard was not there in the stacks.

Again, Richard didn't invent vocal arranging of this type. Using that logic, Carpenters' vocal sound is duplication of Les Paul & Mary Ford. They are the inventors of that approach, not Richard. Just because Karen sang with herself in "stacks" doesn't make it a "duplication" of Carpenters' sound. Rod Temperton's arranging style is quite different from Richard's for the reasons I mentioned above. It definitely can't be argued that "If I Had You" is a duplication of Carpenters' sound. Richard just didn't arrange that way. This is Rod to the bone. As an example, I present "First Day of Snow." Here, Johnnie Wilder, Jr. is stacking with himself throughout but Rod's arranging style is utterly different. Plenty of Jazz changes in Rod's arrangement style. Richard's sound is largely choral and nothing like this.



This is the sound that's on Karen's solo record, not Richard's. Ironically, the producer on Heatwave's "Hot Property" album was...Phil Ramone. This was 1979 - a bit before Karen recorded her solo record.

Ed

 

[Mark-T]

I hear the differences in arranging style.

My guess is Ramone and Temperton did what they did with background vocals because they knew one thing for sure: While the general public and radio programmers might have been tired of Carpenters and their signature style, they still loved the sound of Karen's singing voice. It's definitely unmatchable.

 

[goodjeans]

Again, Richard didn't invent vocal arranging of this type. Using that logic, Carpenters' vocal sound is duplication of Les Paul & Mary Ford. They are the inventors of that approach, not Richard. Just because Karen sang with herself in "stacks" doesn't make it a "duplication" of Carpenters' sound. Rod Temperton's arranging style is quite different from Richard's for the reasons I mentioned above. It definitely can't be argued that "If I Had You" is a duplication of Carpenters' sound. Richard just didn't arrange that way. This is Rod to the bone. As an example, I present "First Day of Snow." Here, Johnnie Wilder, Jr. is stacking with himself throughout but Rod's arranging style is utterly different. Plenty of Jazz changes in Rod's arrangement style. Richard's sound is largely choral and nothing like this.



This is the sound that's on Karen's solo record, not Richard's. Ironically, the producer on Heatwave's "Hot Property" album was...Phil Ramone. This was 1979 - a bit before Karen recorded her solo record.

Ed

Wow. I bought "Hot property" when it was first released and had no idea that Phil Ramone produced it. Thank you for the education vinylalbumcovers.

 

[JohnFB]

But not, as it turned out, the power to insist the album was released.

As she later told Phil Ramone she thought it was a good f**king album...she must have thought so too when they had that infamous meeting at A&M to audition it...she could have and should have stuck to her guns and insisted then that it be released...instead she was intimidated by the apparent unanimous opinion against it...if she had acted like the temperamental, demanding Diva she had every right to be ( but wasn't) she should have bucked up and insisted that it be released - or else...she was the golden egg laying goose and had "options" to force the issue...she lamely chose not to.

 

[Nemily]

Now, with so many more female drummers playing professionally, I think Karen would have had an easier time balancing her singing with her drumming. Even back in the early '80s, the landscape was changing thanks to all-female bands like the Runaways and the Go-Gos, and drummers like Sheila E. I like to think that Karen's visibility as a female drummer helped to pave the way for their success.

Agree 100% and I also like to think that as early as the 70's, the conversation we were having about female drummers was different than it was in the 60's (although Karen admittedly didn't care). The conversation changed from it's not a girl thing to something much more inclusive. Karen was tremendously influencial.

 

[newvillefan]

Again, Richard didn't invent vocal arranging of this type. Using that logic, Carpenters' vocal sound is duplication of Les Paul & Mary Ford. They are the inventors of that approach, not Richard. Just because Karen sang with herself in "stacks" doesn't make it a "duplication" of Carpenters' sound. Rod Temperton's arranging style is quite different from Richard's for the reasons I mentioned above. It definitely can't be argued that "If I Had You" is a duplication of Carpenters' sound. Richard just didn't arrange that way. This is Rod to the bone. As an example, I present "First Day of Snow." Here, Johnnie Wilder, Jr. is stacking with himself throughout but Rod's arranging style is utterly different. Plenty of Jazz changes in Rod's arrangement style. Richard's sound is largely choral and nothing like this.

I'd agree with this assessment - vocal overdubbing techniques can vary massively from one genre to another - for instance barbershop is light years away from jazz. If you listen to Karen's background vocals on 'Still Crazy' or 'If We Try', they're unlike anything she ever did as part of the Carpenters. It's only because it's the same voice that it sounds familiar.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I'd agree with this assessment - vocal overdubbing techniques can vary massively from one genre to another - for instance barbershop is light years away from jazz. If you listen to Karen's background vocals on 'Still Crazy' or 'If We Try', they're unlike anything she ever did as part of the Carpenters. It's only because it's the same voice that it sounds familiar.

As has been said, her solo album banks on the thing that matters most: her voice. As such, Ramone and company would have been fools to use background singers. She didn't need background singers and she didn't need to drum - especially when you have Steve Gadd and Liberty DeVitto at your disposal. Karen was a very good drummer but she wasn't Steve Gadd or Liberty DeVitto. There's no way Karen could have managed this anywhere near as well as Steve Gadd.



Steve Gadd one of the best drummers who ever lived and Karen was fortunate to have him working on her record. Her record has New York running through its veins and it required the hard hitting New York style. That wasn't Karen...ever but it was right up Steve and Liberty's alley. Besides, again, it was Karen's voice that has always been the main attraction.

Ed

 

[David A]

It just occurred to me that in a recent "build your own concert" thread (where we picked musicians and singers from any era, alive or not, to create a concert) I chose Steve Gadd for drummer precisely because of his work on Aja...but did not know he actually played on Karen's solo album.

Love this forum, learn something new quite frequently.

 

[Nemily]

The more I've thought about this, the more I agree with this view. Karen may - or may not - have been "tired", and there may have been other reasons she chose not to drum (after all, she could have insisted on doing so, regardless of anyone else's view on the matter), but I think Karen was highly attuned to staying away from anything remotely sounding like Carpenters, to carve out her own creative place as well as avoid the notion that she was copying anything "Carpenters"

I am not sure how many first hand accounts there truly are about why Karen chose not to drum on her album. This is from Phil Ramone's book, and it backs up a lot of what is summized:

.....'Karen made a conscientious decision to experiment with songs and styles that differed from Carpenters' records.........Karen liked the energy on the Billy Joel records so we decided to use his band' . Then he adds, to add a little bit more texture we brought in Steve Gadd (among other musicians).

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I am not sure how many first hand accounts there truly are about why Karen chose not to drum on her album. This is from Phil Ramone's book, and it backs up a lot of what is summized:

.....'Karen made a conscientious decision to experiment with songs and styles that differed from Carpenters' records.........Karen liked the energy on the Billy Joel records so we decided to use his band' . Then he adds, to add a little bit more texture we brought in Steve Gadd (among other musicians).

This proves that Karen wasn’t led around; she took control and did what she wanted. Phil guided and made suggestions. Love that for her.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

Her record has New York running through its veins and it required the hard hitting New York style. That wasn't Karen...ever but it was right up Steve and Liberty's alley.

I hadn’t thought about it this way Ed but this nails it, and now makes me realise it probably was a conscious decision on Karen’s part not to play on the album. The fact that the album “has New York running through its veins” is precisely why I love it so much.

When I was in New York in April 2019 (the trip that led me on to California for the four-day 50th Anniversary event), at times I walked around its most famous streets, listening to some of her album tracks on my headphones, on a compilation I’d prepared especially in advance. Now that was a memory I will never forget.

Here’s another track I’ve always loved that was on my playlist. It just has that same NYC vibe running right through it.

 

[Mark-T]

I hadn’t thought about it this way Ed but this nails it, and now makes me realise it probably was a conscious decision on Karen’s part not to play on the album. The fact that the album “has New York running through its veins” is precisely why I love it so much.

When I was in New York in April 2019 (the trip that led me on to California for the four-day 50th Anniversary event), at times I walked around its most famous streets, listening to some of her album tracks on my headphones, on a compilation I’d prepared especially in advance. Now that was a memory I will never forget.

Here’s another track I’ve always loved that was on my playlist. It just has that same NYC vibe running right through it.

LOVE that whole album. Easily his best- but Brooklyn Blues is among my favorites.

 

[JohnFB]

As has been said, her solo album banks on the thing that matters most: her voice. As such, Ramone and company would have been fools to use background singers. She didn't need background singers

No, she never needed background singers, but almost always seemed to have them, including herself...and she never needed "foreground vocal accompanists" on her lead vocals but she frequently had one of those, again herself...

If the album was banking on her voice there was a problem. This was no longer the stunningly clear and beautiful voice of the early years. This was a voice ravaged by some years of continuous malnutrition that was anorexia, which had taken a serious toll on all of her vital organs, including her vocal cords. Her vocals are consistently weak on this album, and benefited from the "camouflage" of complex background vocals, and loud, sometimes overpowering instrumental accompaniment. Better song choices would have helped the album, but THAT voice was no longer there to carry it...

and she didn't need to drum - especially when you have Steve Gadd and Liberty DeVitto at your disposal. Karen was a very good drummer but she wasn't Steve Gadd or Liberty DeVitto. There's no way Karen could have managed this anywhere near as well...

Ed

No, she didn't need to drum, and Gadd & DeVitto's work was excellent - but given the final product, which was the quality of the album as a whole, it didn't make much difference - the album wasn't going to rise of fall on the strength of the drumming - so, it wouldn't have made much difference if she had done all of the drumming herself - it maybe wouldn't have been as creative or energized or polished as that of the other drummers, but it would have been good enough, given the inadequacies of most of the album's songs and the mediocrity of the album as a whole.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

No, she never needed background singers, but almost always seemed to have them, including herself...and she never needed "foreground vocal accompanists" on her lead vocals but she frequently had one of those, again herself...

She rarely had background singers that weren’t her other than Richard.

If the album was banking on her voice there was a problem. This was no longer the stunningly clear and beautiful voice of the early years. This was a voice ravaged by some years of continuous malnutrition that was anorexia, which had taken a serious toll on all of her vital organs, including her vocal cords. Her vocals are consistently weak on this album, and benefited from the "camouflage" of complex background vocals, and loud, sometimes overpowering instrumental accompaniment. Better song choices would have helped the album, but THAT voice was no longer there to carry it...

She definitely wasn’t in the best shape by this point but to suggest that her voice was “ravaged” is a bit much. She still sounded positively lovely as she always did. A little weak…but lovely. She wasn’t so “ravaged” that she couldn’t handle all of her backing vocals on the record.

No, she didn't need to drum, and Gadd & DeVitto's work was excellent - but given the final product, which was the quality of the album as a whole, it didn't make much difference - the album wasn't going to rise of fall on the strength of the drumming - so, it wouldn't have made much difference if she had done all of the drumming herself - it maybe wouldn't have been as creative or energized or polished as that of the other drummers, but it would have been good enough, given the inadequacies of most of the album's songs and the mediocrity of the album as a whole.

We’ll just agree to disagree on the quality of the album as a whole. The Russell Javors and the one Peter Cetera tune are pretty awful IMO but the record is quite good otherwise. Your mileage varies and that’s fine.

Ed

 

[Alan71]

I’d never heard of Steve Gadd until he completely re-did the drums on Kate Bush’s Director’s Cut in 2011. That album partially re-recorded 11 tracks from two earlier Kate Bush albums. He then appeared on all but one track of her subsequent “50 Words For Snow” (her final studio album to date).

The original British drummers - Stuart Elliott and Charlie Morgan - were replaced by Steve Gadd, though many other original musicians’ performances were retained. It was an unusual move for Kate as she generally retained her close-knit group of musicians throughout her career, but Steve was credited with re-invigorating her interest in music and it ultimately led to her first live performances in 35 years (2014’s Before The Dawn, though Steve Gadd was not part of it).

 

[Brendon McMahon]

She rarely had background singers that weren’t her other than Richard.

She definitely wasn’t in the best shape by this point but to suggest that her voice was “ravaged” is a bit much. She still sounded positively lovely as she always did. A little weak…but lovely. She wasn’t so “ravaged” that she couldn’t handle all of her backing vocals on the record.


We’ll just agree to disagree on the quality of the album as a whole. The Russell Javors and the one Peter Cetera tune are pretty awful IMO but the record is quite good otherwise. Your mileage varies and that’s fine.

Ed

Those solo vocals acapella posted by Nevillefan sound good to me, not ravaged at all, but sans the backing tracks demonstrating a warm presence which does not seem so evident on the finished solo album. Am assuming some of the subsequent Made in America vocals would be the same.

 

[JohnFB]

..

She definitely wasn’t in the best shape by this point but to suggest that her voice was “ravaged” is a bit much. She still sounded positively lovely as she always did. A little weak…but lovely. She wasn’t so “ravaged” that she couldn’t handle all of her backing vocals on the record.

Yes, lovely (at least what one could hear of it) and I guess "ravaged" is a little strong - how about "weakened" or "compromised"? I kept waiting for the "Rainy Days and Mondays" voice to make an appearance, but it never did (and very sadly, probably never would again).

We’ll just agree to disagree on the quality of the album as a whole. The Russell Javors and the one Peter Cetera tune are pretty awful IMO but the record is quite good otherwise. Your mileage varies and that’s fine.

Ed

Ed - I've listened to the album again recently several times and can't find anything on there I like other than IF WE TRY, IF I HAD YOU, MAKE BELIEVE... and in spite of what Paul Simon said STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...are 4 good songs enough to make it a decent album? I would have bought it just for IF WE TRY, which is, all things considered, a great piece of music...

 

[newvillefan]

Ed - I've listened to the album again recently several times and can't find anything on there I like other than IF WE TRY, IF I HAD YOU, MAKE BELIEVE... and in spite of what Paul Simon said STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...are 4 good songs enough to make it a decent album? I would have bought it just for IF WE TRY, which is, all things considered, a great piece of music...

It depends what you mean by “4 good songs”. ‘If I Had You’ has turned up time and again in many articles and reviews of Lovelines and Karen’s album as being the standout track - something I’ve shared here many times. Even Richard described it as the “possible exception” from the album as being the one that could have launched a solo venture for her in 1980 (something I always thought was a begrudging acceptance that she’d come up with a hit).

I’ve known many albums from around the same time sell millions based on one or two good, commercial songs…and a lot of filler.

Queen - The Game
Olivia Newton-John - Physical
John Lennon - Double Fantasy

(Sorry to my fellow Olivia fanatics but it’s true - nice songs, but no better than the album tracks on Karen’s album).

At the very worst, that applies to this album, I believe. Were there half a dozen hit singles on it? No. Was there any material on there worthy of a shot at the Billboard Top 100, compared to what else was out there at the time…and compared to ‘Goofus’? I’d bet any money there was.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Ed - I've listened to the album again recently several times and can't find anything on there I like other than IF WE TRY, IF I HAD YOU, MAKE BELIEVE... and in spite of what Paul Simon said STILL CRAZY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...are 4 good songs enough to make it a decent album? I would have bought it just for IF WE TRY, which is, all things considered, a great piece of music...

I mean...yes. It's normal for albums to have four singles plus filler. That said, I just don't agree with you. I think 9 of 12 are very good tunes. The only ones I don't like are the Javors tunes (Karen can't rock and the tunes are just lousy) and the Cetera tune (just a bad song with bad lyric; his blend with her is also awful). She was trying things so the three duds are totally forgivable. I love hearing Karen sing with herself and Rod's arrangements are just amazing. They make all the good stuff better. His tunes here are just perfect for her in this context. Again, though, you feel as you do and that's fine.

Ed