Steve Gadd On Karen's Solo Album

[JohnFB]

It depends what you mean by “4 good songs”. ‘If I Had You’ has turned up time and again in many articles and reviews of Lovelines and Karen’s album as being the standout track - something I’ve shared here many times. Even Richard described it as the “possible exception” from the album as being the one that could have launched a solo venture for her in 1980 (something I always thought was a begrudging acceptance that she’d come up with a hit).

Overall, I prefer IF WE TRY - great song, great vocal, great arrangement, great smooth jazz feel - just a perfect recording!

I really like IF I HAD YOU - great everything too - the only thing that bothers me a little is the lengthy multi-layered background vocals at the end - I think it should have had a cleaner, shorter ending like TRY - but I know some of you good people enjoy that, and that's just fine...

At the very worst, that applies to this album, I believe. Were there half a dozen hit singles on it? No. Was there any material on there worthy of a shot at the Billboard Top 100, compared to what else was out there at the time…and compared to ‘Goofus’? I’d bet any money there was.

Yes, the 2 IF songs and MAKE BELIEVE...too bad there wasn't more like them on there...but then there are, at this point, too many "too bads", and it's frustrating and maddening...

 

[JohnFB]

... She was trying things so the three duds are totally forgivable. I love hearing Karen sing with herself and Rod's arrangements are just amazing. They make all the good stuff better. His tunes here are just perfect for her in this context. Again, though, you feel as you do and that's fine.

Ed

Did Rod do all of the arrangements - except the vocal arrangements?

I was under the impression (I think from the detailed description of the sessions in Lucy O'Brien's book LEAD SISTER...) that it was Karen herself who did the vocal arrangements - that is, the style or approach of the lead vocals and timing and type of background vocals...

Wasn't the arrangement as a whole on each song then a collaboration of the work of the two of them?

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Did Rod do all of the arrangements - except the vocal arrangements?

I was under the impression (I think from the detailed description of the sessions in Lucy O'Brien's book LEAD SISTER...) that it was Karen herself who did the vocal arrangements - that is, the style or approach of the lead vocals and timing and type of background vocals...

Wasn't the arrangement as a whole on each song then a collaboration of the work of the two of them?

Rod did the vocal arrangements on the whole album. He did the rhythm arrangements on the songs he wrote. If you listen to his vocal arrangements for Heatwave, Michael Jackson, etc., there can be no doubt he did them all by himself.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

Rod is credited with the vocal arrangements. That wasn’t Karen’s area of expertise.

 

[JohnFB]

In LEAD SISTER... O'Brien says (in Chapter 14, page 241) in discussing the various songs on the album:

"Mounsey [Rob, one of the arrangers] noticed Karen was demanding of herself, particularly when it came to vocal arrangements. 'She and her brother had this patented process of building those pretty choir parts. Usually it would just be the two of them, but on this session it was just her. They're very striking because they're so unique to her sound. You hear other Karen's come in, very tight and correct, like pretty shiny steel bars. She built those very carefully; it was all mapped out in her head. I worked with Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys and he did very much the same thing.' " [bolding mine]

I think this is the passage, especially the part I bolded, that made me think that she did all of her own vocal arrangements. But, I can see where it might not be as all-inclusive as it seems at first - or as I chose to interpret it.

 

[newvillefan]

You hear other Karen's come in, very tight and correct, like pretty shiny steel bars. She built those very carefully; it was all mapped out in her head.

I believe the first part of that bolded statement is true - that Karen was responsible for the effort that went into performing the vocal harmonies and would have been meticulous about how they were laid down. But to say she mapped them all out in her head herself and was the de facto vocal arranger is, I think, patently untrue. Otherwise the credits would have read:

“Vocal acrobatics by Rod Temperton and Karen Carpenter”.

It’s another reason why I wouldn’t buy the book - if my memory of articles and comments on here serves me correctly, this is just one of many inaccuracies. I’m surprised at Rob Mounsey even saying this, unless the musicians withdrew from the recording sessions after they’d laid the basic tracks down, in which case he’s made an incorrect assumption here (that Lucy O’Brien should have checked).

 

[JohnFB]

Rod is credited with the vocal arrangements. That wasn’t Karen’s area of expertise.

I think you might just be selling Karen a tad short here - after all, she worked closely with Richard all those years on all those albums and probably not only learned a lot about vocal arranging from his ideas but also contributed good ideas of her own from time to time. This only makes sense, as deeply into her craft as she was. She could have developed other thoughts on the process over the years that Richard didn't allow into their final products, but which might have had some value. In terms of vocal arranging she might therefore have been like a gifted apprentice who hadn't been allowed to fully stretch and apply her skills - but now all of a sudden here with the Solo Album she had her big chance to put her "long-since acquired, but largely suppressed, unique expertise" into action. After all, who would know better than her how she should or wanted to sing a song (including when and how to add background vocals that she wanted to hear)?

 

[Bartog739]

Hello, just wanted to briefly comment on the list of drummers and respective songs they played on that was posted early in the thread. "Last One Singin' The Blues," the unfinished bonus track, must have been Liberty Devitto as opposed to Steve Gadd as Karen says "Just a 'zinch' slower, Lib" as the song begins. I definitely appreciate the list though and thank whomever posted it.

 

[Brendon McMahon]

I think you might just be selling Karen a tad short here - after all, she worked closely with Richard all those years on all those albums and probably not only learned a lot about vocal arranging from his ideas but also contributed good ideas of her own from time to time. This only makes sense, as deeply into her craft as she was. She could have developed other thoughts on the process over the years that Richard didn't allow into their final products, but which might have had some value. In terms of vocal arranging she might therefore have been like a gifted apprentice who hadn't been allowed to fully stretch and apply her skills - but now all of a sudden here with the Solo Album she had her big chance to put her "long-since acquired, but largely suppressed, unique expertise" into action. After all, who would know better than her how she should or wanted to sing a song (including when and how to add background vocals that she wanted to hear)?

I agree: let's give Karen some kudos for her innate musicality which was well practised by the time of her solo album.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I think you might just be selling Karen a tad short here - after all, she worked closely with Richard all those years on all those albums and probably not only learned a lot about vocal arranging from his ideas but also contributed good ideas of her own from time to time. This only makes sense, as deeply into her craft as she was. She could have developed other thoughts on the process over the years that Richard didn't allow into their final products, but which might have had some value. In terms of vocal arranging she might therefore have been like a gifted apprentice who hadn't been allowed to fully stretch and apply her skills - but now all of a sudden here with the Solo Album she had her big chance to put her "long-since acquired, but largely suppressed, unique expertise" into action. After all, who would know better than her how she should or wanted to sing a song (including when and how to add background vocals that she wanted to hear)?

Vocal arranging is a real skill and not everyone can do it well - especially when we're talking about the Jazz-tinged arrangements he's made his stock and trade for years prior and many years after. Rod was credited the vocal arrangements and they sound exactly like his work with many others he's done arrangements for. He did them. I can see that you want it to be otherwise but it just isn't. All that's necessary is to just go listen to anything by Heatwave, the Michael Jackson tunes he wrote/arranged, the Patti Austin tracks, or many others. They wear his vocal signature so clearly, it's plainly obvious.

Ed

 

[Nemily]

Hello, just wanted to briefly comment on the list of drummers and respective songs they played on that was posted early in the thread. "Last One Singin' The Blues," the unfinished bonus track, must have been Liberty Devitto as opposed to Steve Gadd as Karen says "Just a 'zinch' slower, Lib" as the song begins. I definitely appreciate the list though and thank whomever posted it.

Great catch! I completely overlooked that Karen calls Liberty DeVitto out by name while setting the tempo.

Pete McCann, the Songwriter of Last One Singin' the Blues, had composer/performing rights with Broadcast Music (BMI) on the CD Liner credits (BMI is of course a rights organization to represent their respective share when a song is broadcast or performed in public). Steve Gadd is a member of/associated with BMI to this day (Steve Gadd Band among other works) and was also a member back then on Steely Dan and Paul Simon projects in the 70’s.

When I noticed BMI as the representative on the credits, it made sense to me, at that time, that Gadd was the drummer. Clearly, the credit was for Pete McCann and not Steve Gadd. I should have known this simply by the pocket, ugh.

This is an amazing track, finished or not.

 

[JohnFB]

I can see that you want it to be otherwise but it just isn't.

I don't want it to be - I'm just saying it could have been, given her background and experience, especially with reference to the vocal aspects of the overall arrangement for each song - and what Rob Mounsey is quoted as saying above in the O'Brien book (although it is subject to debate exactly what he actually meant) - is there any other documentation showing in detail who worked on what, and to what degree, other than an album credit, or somebody's word of mouth? It really is hard to believe that she wouldn't have had any input at all on any of the vocal arrangements of any of the songs...and perhaps should have had at least partial credit...

 

[Bartog739]

Great catch! I completely overlooked that Karen calls Liberty DeVitto out by name while setting the tempo.

Pete McCann, the Songwriter of Last One Singin' the Blues, had composer/performing rights with Broadcast Music (BMI) on the CD Liner credits (BMI is of course a rights organization to represent their respective share when a song is broadcast or performed in public). Steve Gadd is a member of/associated with BMI to this day (Steve Gadd Band among other works) and was also a member back then on Steely Dan and Paul Simon projects in the 70’s.

When I noticed BMI as the representative on the credits, it made sense to me, at that time, that Gadd was the drummer. Clearly, the credit was for Pete McCann and not Steve Gadd. I should have known this simply by the pocket, ugh.

This is an amazing track, finished or not.

Totally understandable, lots of information running around out there. Would love to figure out some way to determine the individual drummers on the unreleased tracks, but obviously no liner notes to be found on those. Have a great day!

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I don't want it to be - I'm just saying it could have been, given her background and experience, especially with reference to the vocal aspects of the overall arrangement for each song - and what Rob Mounsey is quoted as saying above in the O'Brien book (although it is subject to debate exactly what he actually meant) - is there any other documentation showing in detail who worked on what, and to what degree, other than an album credit, or somebody's word of mouth? It really is hard to believe that she wouldn't have had any input at all on any of the vocal arrangements of any of the songs...and perhaps should have had at least partial credit...

Again, this is easily figured out by listening to a few Heatwave tracks or any of the myriad tracks he arranged vocals on. If you really listen to them, Rod's style is unmistakable. Did she have a little bit of input? Hard to imagine she didn't. But I think we can safely say based on sonic proof that Rod really did do the arranging work and thus deserves the entirety of the flowers for the work he did. His work before and after it prove that he did it alone.

Rob Mounsey gave her credit for part of a line in "I Guess I Just Lost My Head". He likely could have come up with something but she did it instead and it works well. It's not pivotal to the song and, as such, no need to alter the songwriting credit. The insinuation that songwriting credits can be political or inaccurate is dead on - they absolutely can be. It's just that in these cases, they're likely right on based on the sonic evidence.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

Ed - if what you say is true - if Rod T. did all of the arranging, including all or most of what Karen sang, and how she sang it, and when she sang it - both lead vocals & background - then that raises some questions:

1. Why would Karen have the exclusive right to select the songs she was going to record, and yet not the right to control how she sang them?

2. Was Rod T. a worse "recording dictator" than Richard, bullying Karen into singing the songs his way, with no significant input from her?

3. Why would she wimp out & give him that total control?

4. What happened to Karen's big plans to go to New York and assert her independence and control every aspect of her future recording career?

5. Why are you apparently the only one here willing to take on the challenge of addressing these points?

 

[Matthew S]

Ed - if what you say is true - if Rod T. did all of the arranging, including all or most of what Karen sang, and how she sang it, and when she sang it - both lead vocals & background - then that raises some questions:

1. Why would Karen have the exclusive right to select the songs she was going to record, and yet not the right to control how she sang them?

2. Was Rod T. a worse "recording dictator" than Richard, bullying Karen into singing the songs his way, with no significant input from her?

3. Why would she wimp out & give him that total control?

4. What happened to Karen's big plans to go to New York and assert her independence and control every aspect of her future recording career?

5. Why are you apparently the only one here willing to take on the challenge of addressing these points?

Maybe because no one here was actually there and we can’t ask Karen anymore why she did something or what she did. And arguing about it is getting old.

 

[JohnFB]

Maybe because no one here was actually there and we can’t ask Karen anymore why she did something or what she did. And arguing about it is getting old.

Hey! Nice to finally hear from you Matthew!

Maybe nobody here was there, but there are some who were there who apparently are still here with us...and there is some oral evidence available from what was said years ago, and ever since...

The questions are interesting and important, but the discussion has been friendly and instructive. No voices have been raised, no insults have been thrown around and no names have been called. It's not an "argument" at all but a detailed conversation about the possibilities, probabilities and known facts.

Any constructive enlightenment that you'd care to offer would be highly appreciated.

John

 

[Murray]

Ed - if what you say is true - if Rod T. did all of the arranging, including all or most of what Karen sang, and how she sang it, and when she sang it - both lead vocals & background - then that raises some questions:

1. Why would Karen have the exclusive right to select the songs she was going to record, and yet not the right to control how she sang them?

2. Was Rod T. a worse "recording dictator" than Richard, bullying Karen into singing the songs his way, with no significant input from her?

3. Why would she wimp out & give him that total control?

4. What happened to Karen's big plans to go to New York and assert her independence and control every aspect of her future recording career?

5. Why are you apparently the only one here willing to take on the challenge of addressing these points?

Taking your line of questioning to it's logical conclusion...

...why didn't Karen write the lyrics, compose (and arrange) the music, play all the instruments herself, mix and master the album, take the photos, write the liner notes... hell, why didn't she just produce the damn thing herself? She was capable of doing everything, wasn't she?...

NO, she wasn't. BUT, she was smart enough to hire people who were skilled in all these areas, so that she could concentrate on what she was THE BEST at, singing! ... and I'm sure that Karen would have made suggestions, if there was something that she didn't like, or thought that she could improve upon...

 

[newvillefan]

if Rod T. did all of the arranging, including all or most of what Karen sang, and how she sang it, and when she sang it - both lead vocals & background - then that raises some questions

That's not what Ed said. A vocal arranger doesn't tell the singer what, how or when to sing, they come up with the vocal arrangements to support the overall stylistic feel of the album. In other words, how the harmonies are constructed and layered, where the background vocals come in and how they interact with the music etc. Fair enough Rod coached Karen on her pronunciation on one track, but that doesn't mean he had his hand up her back throughout the recording sessions.

Karen chose the songs she liked, Phil and the band created the backing tracks, and Karen put down her vocals, under the expert guidance of her vocal arranger. That was Rod's job - and he did it superbly.

It was exactly the same with Richard, who has always maintained that whilst he arranged their music and vocals, you didn't need to tell Karen how to sing a song - you gave her the lead sheet and let her do her stuff.

Oh and on that point - I don't ever remember seeing Karen credited as a vocal co-arranger on any of the Carpenters records.

 

[David A]

[SNIP]... but the discussion has been friendly and instructive. No voices have been raised, no insults have been thrown around and no names have been called. It's not an "argument" at all but a detailed conversation about the possibilities, probabilities and known facts. [/SNIP]

Wanted to call this out, as @JohnFB is correct - although this thread has veered a bit from Gadd's contribution to Karen's solo album, it has _not_ gotten nasty/mucky/personal, and has remained relatively within the context of how the music itself was created - which I'm confident is why this thread continues.

I'm of the opinion that Karen didn't "abdicate" any power as regards the music and backing vocals, rather she delegated it. As others have said, I am also confident that Karen would have spoken up had she felt strongly about something she felt was deleterious to the music.

 

[newvillefan]

although this thread has veered a bit from Gadd's contribution to Karen's solo album, it has _not_ gotten nasty/mucky/personal, and has remained relatively within the context of how the music itself was created - which I'm confident is why this thread continues.

Karen's album is a topic that always produces divides but I've really enjoyed the discussion so far, and have learned things about Steve Gadd that I didn't know - his background as a vocal arranger for Heatwave in particular. I adore that late 70s funk/disco era, and have gone back and taken a listen to some of the albums I'd not heard before.

As a keen study of album credits, I'd love to see a wider thread on all of the sessions musicians and contributors to Carpenters' and Karen's solo album. Although opinions are often split on the end result, you can't deny that the solo album was beautifully produced and involved some veteran musicians - I know that Greg Phillinganes (who did that incredible Fender Rhodes solo on 'Lovelines') went on to play keyboards for Michael Jackson, but I'd also love for instance to learn more about the likes of arranger Bob James, who contributed the arrangements to 'If I Had You' and 'If We Try'. I also noticed Jerry Hey's name in the credits - he orchestrated some of the tracks on Voice Of The Heart. And here's one from left of field - Le Band (arrangement credit on 'Still In Love With You') anyone?

 

[Nemily]

I'm sure that Karen would have made suggestions, if there was something that she didn't like, or thought that she could improve upon...

I'm of the opinion that Karen didn't "abdicate" any power as regards the music and backing vocals, rather she delegated it. As others have said, I am also confident that Karen would have spoken up had she felt strongly about something she felt was deleterious to the music.

What leads me to believe that this is accurate in every aspect of her album is found in the Liner notes on Karen's CD from Phil Ramone, (which immediately follows Richard's Liner notes if you have the CD)....

I have not remixed or done anything to the tapes. These mixes, the material and style are the way Karen approved them. The bonus track is unmixed.

 

[JohnFB]

..

... and I'm sure that Karen would have made suggestions, if there was something that she didn't like, or thought that she could improve upon...

Yes, and I'm pretty sure of that too - my questions were how much & how often...just maybe in actuality it was the other way around, i.e., she created the vocals and Rod made occasional suggestions...or, to put it another way, she decided how each song was going to be sung by her and he then created the orchestral arrangement to accommodate her plan...just a guess, but it seems to make sense, given her extensive experience and unparalleled skill as a singer.

 

[JohnFB]

...

Karen chose the songs she liked, Phil and the band created the backing tracks, and Karen put down her vocals, under the expert guidance of her vocal arranger. That was Rod's job - and he did it superbly.

It was exactly the same with Richard, who has always maintained that whilst he arranged their music and vocals, you didn't need to tell Karen how to sing a song - you gave her the lead sheet and let her do her stuff.

Oh and on that point - I don't ever remember seeing Karen credited as a vocal co-arranger on any of the Carpenters records.

If Richard gave her the lead sheet and told her to do her thing with it then she was the de facto vocal arranger, even if she didn't get album credit as being that - and furthermore, did anyone ever get credit on a Carpenter album for being the VOCAL arranger (as opposed to just arranger)?

 

[JohnFB]

...but I'd also love for instance to learn more about the likes of arranger Bob James, who contributed the arrangements to 'If I Had You' and 'If We Try'.

If Bob James (an old Fusion Jazz favorite of mine) was indeed the arranger of those two outstanding tracks then he should have been given total control of the whole damn album - it would have been a completely different and far better work of art.