Was The "Wave" CD by Tom Jobim Copied From A Vinyl

[PartyRico]

I don't know if this has been covered here, but I believe the "Wave" Cd released around 88 was "mastered from a vinyl l.p., and not the original tapes.
When I first bought that great recording in the CD format, I was somewhat dissapointed by the "opaque" sound. I formerly owned it on Vinyl, and also on Open Reel, which by the way sounded great. I believe the "muffled" sound is due to the scratch removing or pops/tick removing software that may have been used.
For you audiophile freaks here, and I respect all of you, I recently transferred "Wave" onto a Mini-Disc (not the fancy HD format) and while listening to it, noticed on several tracks, that there are pops, and ticks identical to what one would hear on vinyl records. I don't know if the MD format or it's circuits somehow "filtered out" the "protection" software for the scratches or pops. I was a bit unhappy and realized we may have been had. It happens quite a bit that you buy a cd, and realize you've been taken in, that what you are listening is not the "improved" product CD's are supposed to be.
Now, I am aware that there may have been a subsequent re-issue of more copies of "Wave", and if so, perhaps those have much better sound. If this is the case will someone please let me know. I'll just buy it again as "Wave" is a very beautiful recording in my judgement. (One of my 10 "desert island" picks.)

 

[seashorepiano]

...I recently transferred "Wave" onto a Mini-Disc (not the fancy HD format) and while listening to it, noticed on several tracks, that there are pops, and ticks identical to what one would hear on vinyl records.

The same pops and ticks can also originate in the deterioration of the original analog tapes on which the album was recorded. Just a thought...

 

[Harry]

I hear no pops and ticks on my CD of WAVE, purchased in the late '90s, with the "Digitally mastered at Van Gelder Recording Studio, November 1988" designation on it. It's got the A&M Jazz logo on the disc and a curious coyright date of 1986 on the face of the disc, and a "12/92" inscribed in the aluminum around the innner ring of the disc.

To me it sounds like a typical Van Gelder recording, and I hear original hiss, so it wasn't severly noise-reduced.

Perhaps something in your recording "chain" is what introduced the pops to your MD (?), mimicking the way you heard it on vinyl.

Harry

 

[Rudy]

If the recording level is too high on an MD recorder, it may make those kinds of noises.

IMHO, though, many of those CTi albums sound muffled and muddy. When I put my "Wave" Audio Master Plus vinyl onto CD, I did a small EQ cut in the mid-bass (about -1dB) and it cleared the sound up considerably. I don't yet have a CD version of this one--the vinyl sounds so good, I really don't have a need for it.

 

[Dave]

If so, it was probably mastered from the newer, AM+-Series vinyl... I can't tell, but compared to CD's that boast that they were "Digitally Mastered from the Original Tapes", it could be a possibility... Maybe So: I'm suprised at the sound-quality of some CD's, in general, myself, but only in that it just seems so flat-sounding, "First Generation"-mastered to me... But, somehow, however, the Wes Montgomery titles seem to have a much more fuller (but STILL Analog-to-Digital) sound, as though they were pressed from better vinyl (or maybe they were mastered from slowly-deterioriating, but salvagable tape)...

I have had at least two copies of Antonio Carlos Jobim's Wave on CD, and it seemed rather dense and flat-sounding, especially compared to the Verve By-Request reissued Tide album; maybe it should have been reissued this way, then, too... Again, hard to detrmine the original source, by a difference of a few years... The Tamba 4 We And The Sea reissue is a bit similarily-curious sounding, but it seems more like you hear attempts to "clean up" the sound, more than anything else...

I'm suprised I have never seen Herbie Mann's Glory Of Love, since it was new... No USED copies have turned up as if everybody who bought it HOARDED every copy, so I'm pretty curious about how it must sound...


Dave

 

[Rudy]

Why would A&M master an album from LP when there are a couple copies of the master tape in storage at the studios? Those CTi albums just aren't all that good sounding, which is surprising since RVG's studios always had a reputation for good sound on the Blue Note releases. Probably a production decision, if anything, to make these sound good on the "hi fi" systems of the day by pumping up the mid-bass region a bit.

 

[Dave]

The A&M/CTi's, and even the post-A&M/CTi's, I think were never meant to be "sonically perfect"; and that is what I like about them--they do have that "Dank" sound-quality to them...

I don't think it was from being done in VanGelder's studio, either, as other LP's recorded there could have that "open" sound to them... Which at least was captured on Richard Barbary's Soul Machine and Tamiko Jones' I'll Be Anything For You (which was recorded at American Sound Studios in Memphis, as well...), both A&M/CTi products and "the exceptions"--in sound-quality and their genres: R&B, as well...

Yes, there must have been a serious attempt to capture that "dank" sound, but like other CD-reissues, I think any of the original Master-Tapes left, would do...


Dave

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I would doubt it was copied from vinyl- but who knows?

 

[seashorepiano]

If the 1988 CD release were made from remastered analog tapes, it would probably be important to know how the tapes were maintained in storage. After all, they had been sitting there, up to that point, for almost 21 years.

 

[Rudy]

If the 1988 CD release were made from remastered analog tapes, it would probably be important to know how the tapes were maintained in storage. After all, they had been sitting there, up to that point, for almost 21 years.

I must say that these tapes seem to have been stored well enough--tan-label CTi pressings I've heard are comparable to the recent releases, such as the AM+ reissues in the 80s, and the later releases on CD in the 80s and 90s. Actually to my ears, the more recent CDs sound better since they had better EQ during mastering...more clarity in other words. As for "comparable", I'm saying I certainly don't hear many dropouts on recent CDs, and the recent CDs still sound nicely detailed in the top end. IOW, they seem to sound as though they've held up remarkably well. (Heck, "South Of The Border" still shines after all these years!)

At least they didn't use that horrid Ampex 456 for those tapes...that was more in the 70s I think.

 

[seashorepiano]

At least they didn't use that horrid Ampex 456 for those tapes...that was more in the 70s I think.

This might stray off-topic, but what is Ampex 456? I've heard it mentioned here before. Thanks.

 

[Mr Bill]

This might stray off-topic, but what is Ampex 456? I've heard it mentioned here before. Thanks.

It was a formulation of professional recording tape that proved unworthy of longterm archival storage. The oxide cracked and flaked and the bonding agent that held the oxide to the backing turned gummy after a relatively short period of time. Supposedly "baking" a 456 tape would give it enough life to play it one more time to safely transfer to a more robust medium (ie: digital).

--Mr Bill

 

[Rudy]

What Bill says is correct--I actually have a couple reels of 456 here, and it's crap. 15-20 minutes playing time on my deck, and the playback head is almost completely clogged. (IOW, you don't hear *anything* but some low-bass rumbling.) Another giveaway is the squealing of the tape over the guides on the deck. Have had the same problem here with Ampex 499, too. Ampex was also known to have poor, uneven slitting in comparison to others like 3M or BASF. Hard to believe they passed their stuff off as "professional."

It just kills me that I see these guys on eBay selling reels of this garbage for $20-$30. They buy it in surplus auctions and sell it without even knowing what it is, but they know enough to make themselves dangerous, by claiming it is a professional-quality tape, and the eBay suckers will buy it up. These are only good for the metal reels--on mine (which I got free), I just unscrew the reels, pull the pancake of tape off and throw it in the trash.

 

[PartyRico]

I'd like to thank all of you for your great comments, I really appreciate it. "Tide" has much better sound than "Wave"nd so does "Glory Of Love', to a lesser extent.
The "Wave" cd sounds dull, but the music is still glorious. To me the "We and The Sea" sounds better than "Samba Blim". Still to my ears, "Wave" is sonically or technically the worst sounding. "Lost Treasures"sure sounds mighty fine!

 

[Al A-S]

Hi, Folks---
Having played the grooves right out of several copies of "Wave" since 1968, I think it's clear that the transfer to CD was pretty straightforward, more like a dub than any sort of remastering. Certainly, the characteristic "muddiness" referred to elsewhere in this thread is intact, at least in the current digital iteration(s?). Could never understand,by the way, why burying a master like Ron Carter was thought to be a good idea. Airplay considerations?

Same applies to "Samba Blim", which, far as I know, is still available only in a Japanese pressing. Sounds maybe a bit brighter than the LP, but I've long since worn out my original. As for "We And The Sea", that always seemed a lot more open-sounding to me. Maybe it was the reverb.Or possibly the tape hiss.Contrastingly enough, the Verve issue of Desmond's "From The Hot Afternoon" is rife with remixing, especially in the Sebesky orchestrations. And the sound might be just a touch fuller. Love the title tune's extended ending here, too(Airto!!).

Then there's the post-A&M "Stone Flower", with which Sony saw fit to seriously muck, mixwise-speaking, to the detriment especially of "Children's Song"aka "Double Rainbow"aka"Two Kites". "Deodato who?", I can about hear 'em saying.. Ah well, thanks for allowing the rant. It's that these have been among among my desert-island discs for the last 35-plus years, and it's great to find like-minded types who have the same sort of appreciation for these wonderful, classy pieces of artistry.
--Al A-S

 

[seashorepiano]

As for "We And The Sea", that always seemed a lot more open-sounding to me. Maybe it was the reverb...

... Or possibly that a mike was left on when the guitar was overdubbed at a later time. I think someone here can confirm for me that this instrument was overdubbed, at least. It might sound more open because a mike was open to a lone instrument later in the sessions.

...the Verve issue of Desmond's "From The Hot Afternoon" is rife with remixing, especially in the Sebesky orchestrations...

Rife with remixing because so many instruments and an orchestra were overdubbed during several sessions. There are bound to be several instances of signs that it wasn't all together because certain performers were playing to a tape.

NP: "Quietly," SAMBA BLIM

 

[Al A-S]

seashorepiano, you're probably right re that open mic, as the great Bebeto of course played both bass and guitar. My "rife with remixing" was more in reference to the Verve By Request release of "..Hot Afternoon" in comparison to the original A&M. Some of Sebesky's woodwinds, for example, are placed noticeably further back in the mix. Airto's kit, too, seems a tad more subdued in places. Off-putting in some ways to those of us who are so familiar with the original.

But wonderfully fascinating about the Verve "..Afternoon" is the before-Sebesky peek we all get at alternate/aborted takes. Fabulous stuff! And brings home your comments about the compromises inherent in later-that-same-month overdubbing.

Oh, and re "Quietly": abso-blessed-lutely! And sort of charming, at least for those of us who've been around seemingly since Mr. Edison first yelled, "Mary had a little recording cylinder!".

Al A-S

 

[Rudy]

... Or possibly that a mike was left on when the guitar was overdubbed at a later time. I think someone here can confirm for me that this instrument was overdubbed, at least. It might sound more open because a mike was open to a lone instrument later in the sessions.

I think only some of the tracks on We And The Sea were recorded at Van Gelder's. The Van Gelder tracks are like the rest of the CTi catalog--muffled highs and bloated bass. For the other tracks, they sound to me like Tamba Trio tracks in mono, with overdubbed guitar in stereo. "O Morro", "Canto de Ossanha" and "Consolação" sound very different from the other tracks, especially through headphones--very atypical of the recording style at Van Gelder's.

 

[Al A-S]

Okay, so I'm an idiot; in my last post, I put a guitar in Bebeto's hands. Rechecking the personnel on "We And The Sea" tells me I confused him with Dorio Ferreira.

Who did, it seems, play guitar on "O Morro" while bass duties were handed to Bebeto. Which now has me wondering anew about this "overdubbing" stuff..

Al A-S