When A&M acts "Jumped the Shark"

[Steven J. Gross]

A popular new phrase about when successful TV shows started going downhill, "Jumping the Shark" can be applied to just about anything- so when did the TJB, Brasil '66 and others "lose their edge"?
One example off the top would be Brasil '66 doing "Wichita Lineman"...the end was near (IMHO).
What say you?

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Well...I never could quite grasp just what Herb was going for when he did that upbeat version of FIRE AND RAIN...it's kinda catchy, but the subject matter just doesn't lend itself to a bouncy treatment, at least not to me. I began to realize that he was running out of material at that time. It isn't a slam against Herb...the music scene was beginning to leave the Brass behind, and it was time to move on...and Herb did, and very well...

Dan

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I agree Dan- and on the same album, a dixieland? version of "Alone Again Naturally"???- Yet "You Smile..." is a really good album- even with 2 clunkers.
Incidently, the "shark" term apparently comes from a Happy Days episode where the Fonz waterskied- right over a shark. And it was the beginning of the end for the show.

 

[jimac51]

If you are more interested in the TV side of "Jump the Shark" rather than a music discussion,visit www.jumptheshark.com and you too will soon channelsurf past any show featuring Ted McGinley. I believe opinions on the site are entered via Yahoo groups. Lots of people with lots of passionate views on virtually every show ever made. Mac

 

[Mr Bill]

I disagree that "Fire & Rain" was a JTS moment. It was the B-side of the "comeback" single "Last Tango..." in 1973. By then it could be argued Herb had already "jumped the shark." The last gold LP of the original brass was Warm while Brass Are Comin' failed to go gold. So the shark came somewhere in there. Were people so disappointed in Warm that they decided against Brass Are Comin'? Or were they so dissatisfied in the TV special that they'd had enough?

Herb's had so many ups & downs in his career you could say he's jumped the shark several times!

Can't speak for other A&M acts. For me it would be when they left A&M!

--Mr Bill
who sadly believes, as far as popularity and ariplay goes, Lani jumped the shark when she left Brasil '66

 

[Dave]

Can't speak for other A&M acts. For me it would be when they left A&M!

--Mr Bill

In which case, there's the last two Sandpipers albums, Come Saturday Morning and A Gift Of Song -- produced by Bones Howe and a pretty dramatic change in material and NOTHING sung in Spanish, to name one example. And on the latter LP, isn't Richard Shoff missing? (or did he simoultaneously put out "a Solo Soul LP" to trade on the Shaft legacy, ala Isaac Hayes? )

Robin Wilson Ain't That Somethin' -- Also produced by Bones, but a big departure from her debut, in the sense that the material and arrangements never jibed. A&M thought it had another Barbra Streisand, but instead turned out to be a "Second-Rate Helen Reddy".

Claudine Longet We've Only Just Begun -- Produced by Nick DeCaro, as all the previous releases have and still somehow production-wise seems the same. But was engineered by Gary Kellgren and suppossedly done at The Record Plant. And released on her then-hubby Andy Williams' Barnaby label-- not A&M, despite the De Caro connection. Also the material was not at all like her last A&M release, Run Wild, Run Free. Seems with the now cluttered arrangements and off-beat material, it looked as though she has.

We Five Return Of -- Kinda makes you see what another Roger Nichols & The Small Circle Of Friends album may have been like. Trapped in the L.A. Psychedelia and still trying to pull off stuff like "Soon It's Gonna Rain" from THE FANTASTIKS and "Mountain Greenery" from THE SOUND OF MUSIC, I think. Throw in Jimmie Rodgers "Any Old Time" and Mason Williams "All The Time" and you have as much of an OVER-mixed bag as the boisterous horn section on "Walk" and the Nirvana of "Lazy Bones". Though the "Walk On By" seemed to be a promising start.

Jimmie Rodgers Troubled Times -- Produced by Jim Bowen and recorded at Amos Recording. The first and only A&M of its kind in that respect. May lack the warmth and charm of his first two efforts, but this "unchartered territory" made a fun album that deserved a follow-up. Didn't Jack Nicholson show up on the last track--giving us his Joker laugh? At least it encouraged Glenn Yarborough to record Yarborough Country.

Dave

 

[Brasil_Nut]

I know that Sergio decided to make Primal Roots for his own good, not that of A&M Records or the industry in general. As the liner notes say, it wasn't designed to make the top-10 and probably wouldn't. A concept that was well ahead of its time.

But, the music industry is fickle. What's popular tomorrow won't necessarily be popular today. The public moves from sound to sound, concept to concept, and so do the labels. A&M was no different. With the introduction of The Carpenters, Frampton, etc., times had changed. The TJB, Brasil '66, BMB, etc., were by then considered passe by many music lovers, who always look for something new and different.

Not to say that these acts were no longer valid. Indeed, they would continue to have a following -- a group of devoted fans who loved and respected these artists in their own right. Look at the rebirth of Herb Alpert, the way Sergio went on to become a Grammy Award winning artist, Julius stepped out of the industry to become a therapist, yet still contributed here and there -- mostly in relation to Herb Alpert.

And so it goes. Fickle, fickle, fickle. That's pretty much the entertainment industry to a tee.

Then again, proof of the validity and staying power of artists such as Herb, Sergio and Julius can be found right here...at A&M Corner!

Jon

...proving that the 'Fickle Finger Of Fate' award has nothing on A&M fans...

 

[Rudy]

The term "jump the shark" seems to be more about someone or something taking a large, irreversible drop in artistic value, not a drop-off in popularity. That point at which something turned bad and never recovered. One might say a band like the Rolling Stones jumped the shark after their "Tattoo You" album, for instance--that's the last album of theirs that had any musical or social impact. (You never hear anyone on the radio play those great smash hits from "Steel Wheels" now, do you? )

I really can't see many A&M artists jumping the shark. A drop-off in popularity is a natural in any musical artist's career, as are the occasional bad albums. The jumping of the shark is more like that point when they quit making anything worthwhile, and never recovered.

 

[Mark-T]

In my opinion, Karen and Richard Carpenter "jumped the shark" by following up the amazing album "Horizon" with "A Kind of Hush".

Don't get me wrong- the album is one of my favorites, but the MOR choir background on the beautiful "I Need to Be in Love" was the kiss of death to the Carpenters as a rock/pop act. "Goofus" as a single just cemented it.
They would never again be taken seriously by Pop/Rock radio or programmers. I think in these two choices alone, Richard showed how out of step he was with the record buying public. And the public confirmed it by their underwhelming support of both the singles and the album.


Mark

 

[jfiedler17]

Can't speak for other A&M acts. For me it would be when they left A&M![/size]

That's often really true, actually! I can give a perfect example: Styx. I used to be a really, really die-hard Styx fan growing up, but, while I've never stopped loving the A&M albums, I could never quite bring myself to follow their post-A&M career. The passing of John Panozzo (easily one of the most underrated drummers in rock) was a huge blow, but they still could have avoided jumping the shark in terms of artistic integrity had they not A) booted DeYoung out of the group (Tommy, you're entertaining, you're talented, but it ain't a "Styx" concert/album/etc. if Dennis ain't there ...);
(the band seems really direction-less without him, and, what with Shaw and J.Y. the only A&M-era members left, the lineup seems something of a farce)
and B) produced a never-ending flood of live albums. Everytime I turn around, it seems there's a new Styx live CD on the market and with not that much of a difference in song selection than the last one; how many live versions of "Boat on the River" do we need? Live albums, with rare exceptions, are rarely essential listens, and when you settle into a pattern of releasing almost nothing BUT live albums? - you've REALLY jumped the shark.

As for when TJB jumped the shark? Easy ... "Talk to the Animals"

 

[jfiedler17]

One might say a band like the Rolling Stones jumped the shark after their "Tattoo You" album, for instance--that's the last album of theirs that had any musical or social impact. (You never hear anyone on the radio play those great smash hits from "Steel Wheels" now, do you? )

You just gave me a great idea, Rudy!
Yeah, their '80s stuff isn't even remotely anywhere near as earth-shattering as their '60s and '70s stuff (even "Tattoo You" was largely a compilation of previously-unreleased '70s outtakes), and radio may all but completely ignore it, but it'd actually be nice to hear "Harlem Shuffle" or "One Hit (to the Body) or "Mixed Emotions" or "Rock and a Hard Place" on the radio ... it'd at least be a breather from hearing "Satisfaction" on the dial for the ninety millionth time.

 

[Steven J. Gross]

When it comes to the Baja Marimba Band, the A&M years were all good- in fact, their last A&M album "As Time Goes By" was my favorite of all. They did "JTS" immediatly after A&M however, with the "BMB's Back" on Bell.
Here's one I'll bet many would agree with: Peter Frampton "JTS" with the album "I'm in You". I like the album, but the sales drop and forced material should put this in the "JTS Hall of Fame".

 

[jfiedler17]

Here's one I'll bet many would agree with: Peter Frampton "JTS" with the album "I'm in You". I like the album, but the sales drop and forced material should put this in the "JTS Hall of Fame".

Three words: "Rocky's Hot Club." Good melody, but the lyrics to that one are really cringe-inducing. (It didn't help that he mentioned on the album sleeve that it was about his dog.)
I think the biggest problem with I'M IN YOU - 'specially being a follow-up to the essential FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE - is that the production was no more improved than any of the studio albums that preceded ALIVE.
ALIVE is refreshing to listen to, but then if you put on I'M IN YOU, it's back to that muggy sound of FRAMPTON (1974) again.
Frampton's '70s studio albums just sound TERRIBLE for the most part. They sound more like home demos than polished studio recordings. ALIVE will always be his greatest moment, but when it comes to his studio albums, I like his post-A&M WHEN ALL THE PIECES FIT best. A bunch of overlooked songs on there, and production-wise and engineering-wise, it's just a heck of a lot easier and more refreshing to listen to IMHO than his A&M studio material.

 

[Rudy]

The passing of John Panozzo (easily one of the most underrated drummers in rock) was a huge blow, but they still could have avoided jumping the shark in terms of artistic integrity had they not A) booted DeYoung out of the group (Tommy, you're entertaining, you're talented, but it ain't a "Styx" concert/album/etc. if Dennis ain't there ...);
(the band seems really direction-less without him, and, what with Shaw and J.Y. the only A&M-era members left, the lineup seems something of a farce)

Their recent Cyclorama isn't really a bad album, but I definitely don't consider it anywhere near what the classic Styx was like. Even the five John Curlewski were still more in the Styx spirit. Since it was DeYoung that joined the Panozzos' band originally, you could say that there are no original members left in the group. For that reason, I'd rather go see one of DeYoung's solo performances than the "Creedence Clearwater Revisited" version of Styx.

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I would like to see the great albums "Paradise Theater" and "Kilroy Was Here" remastered and released as a 2 in one.

 

[Dave]

Here's one I'll bet many would agree with: Peter Frampton "JTS" with the album "I'm in You". I like the album, but the sales drop and forced material should put this in the "JTS Hall of Fame".

Ahhh, give Frampton credit for the SINGLE!!! Literally, it's a CLASSIC LOVE SONG!!

And when you crank it up loud enough on your car radio to drown out someone's R. Kelly playing on HER radio in the lane next to you...

Dave

...and "I blew her a kiss"...!

 

[snapcrotch]

Rock Group 'Jumps Shark' --
Spooky Tooth's 'Ceremony' (1970, SP-4225), a strange album on which they added French experimental electronic pioneer Pierre Henry.
It absolutely killed any momentum they could've had from the their sensational previous LP, 'Spooky Two'. None of their four subsequent LPs did anything afterwards (two for A&M, two for Island).
Of course, Gary Wright proceeded to great solo success.

 

[jfiedler17]

Rock Group 'Jumps Shark' --
Spooky Tooth's 'Ceremony' (1970, SP-4225), a strange album on which they added French experimental electronic pioneer Pierre Henry.
It absolutely killed any momentum they could've had from their sensational previous LP, 'Spooky Two'.

Really great example! Yeah, I've never figure out myself why they made that one. Really bizarre career move. True shark jump there. (Although if they had never made "Ceremony," naming your album "You Broke My Heart So I Busted Your Jaw" is still shark-jump material. )
Gary Wright's solo stuff really made up for it, though. "Love Is Alive" and "Really Wanna Know You" are really first-rate 45s!!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I gotta agree that the TJB's JTS moment was "Talk to the Animals." That song was BAD. Herb regained his footing during the RISE/BEYOND/MAGIC MAN/FANDANGO era, but when he went all jazz all the time, he lost me.

With Sergio, I think it happened when he quit having a regular "band." When he started tryiing to be Quincy Jones and having 100 people involved with each LP. Although, he climbed back onto the shark with most recent three albums, IMHO.

Sandpipers? They JTS with A GIFT OF SONG. They didn't learn from the hit COME SATURDAY MORNING album and instead went back and made another snoozer with too many cover tunes.

Styx JTS with the KILROY album, I think. The concept was just dopey, "I'm Kilroy! Kilroy! Kilroy!" just didn't have the same majesty as the best songs on CRYSTAL BALL and GRAND ILLUSION.

BMB? Definitely the "BACK" album. But Julius himself, he never jumped.

 

[Dave]

Then there's the second Bossa Rio album, Allegria, released on the Blue Thumb label. A&M suppossedly wouldn't hear of it released on their label, despite it being recorded at A&M Studios. Don't know why!

I thought the third Boyce & Hart LP, It's All Happening On The Inside was a real contrast from the first two. In fact, I bought a copy of it at a record show just to hear it again (just to see what I didn't like about it) and at a record STORE I found ALL of Boyce & Hart's albums, singles and other material on 2 CD's!

Paul Williams kind of took a turn for the worse after his 2nd or 3rd album, too. Though I like "Sunday" from Little Bit Of Love, which should have been included on compilations and "She Sings For Free" is OK. But what an UGLY cover! Ordinary Fool has the "classic" cover, but nary a good tune to be heard.

Dave

 

[Steven J. Gross]

Herb Alpert jumped the shark (with the TJB) with "Warm"- my fave- but a commercial flop. More specifically, the single "To Wait for Love", another fave of mine but more Herb vocals than the public wanted- they wanted HORNS!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Now waitaminit.....you can't say he jumped the shark with WARM just because it didn't sell! That's just a reflection on the public's growing lack of taste. If anyone jumped the shark on that one, it was record buyers!

As for Paul Williams: I agree, the album LITTLE BIT OF LOVE is the best album with the worst cover in history. That cover is even worse than some of the Carpenters covers.

I always thought Williams should concentrate more on uptempo songs. Many of my favorites of his vocals are the fast ones...his ballads are best interpreted by others.

 

[Rudy]

Now waitaminit.....you can't say he jumped the shark with WARM just because it didn't sell! That's just a reflection on the public's growing lack of taste. If anyone jumped the shark on that one, it was record buyers!

Correct: "jumping the shark" is when artistic value goes out the window, permamently. That's like saying everything past Warm is dog-doo. Sales has nothing to do with it, but if someone had said Herb jumped the shark with Wild Romance and never turned out a decent album past that point, then it'd be a valid argument.

 

[Mr Bill]

Now now... Warm went gold while Brass Are Comin' failed to do so...

But the more I think about this I think the phrase "jump the shark" can't really be applied to recording artists, just as it can't be applied to individual actors. Its original intent was to describe the pint at which a TV show that once was a hit was floundering and did something really really really stupid on the belief it would resurrect it from flounderization (is that a word?)... It was specifically derived from the Happy Days episode where Fonzie jumped a shark tank on his motorcycle. Unfortunately Happy Days -- which was great its first few seasons -- lingered on and spawned not only crap like Laverne & Shirley and Out Of The Blue (you don't remember that one do you?) but indirectly gave us Mork & Mindy and the terrific (at times obnoxious) Robin Williams. However, the biggest crime against humanity foisted upon America by Happy Days was Joanie Loves Chachi... Someone deserves a lethal injection for that one!

By the way, a trivia question: From what TV series was Happy Days spunoff (or more appropriately 'derived') No fair looking in the Ed Marsh TV book!

--Mr Bill

 

[DAN BOLTON]

By the way, a trivia question: From what TV series was Happy Days spunoff (or more appropriately 'derived') No fair looking in the Ed Marsh TV book!

--Mr Bill

Wasn't it LOVE AMERICAN STYLE?


What do I win?


Dan