When can we expect a Herb Alpert Boxed set?

[venturaguy49]

I was thinkin that most likely, A&M, as with most record co.s, transferred their masters to a secondary tape, which in turn would be used for mastering LP's, which would be logical, as with few exceptions, an appropriate thing to do, given that the average record-buyer didn't/hasn't an expensive phonograph with a pickup that would reveal the discrepancies between a first and second-generation tape...the notable exceptions may have been productions by Longines Symphonette, and later by Mobile Fidelity, which were purists, but on the whole, most people weren't that particular, as music was all too often just 'sonic wallpaper', as some call it, so a fair-sounding tape was all that would be required. One thing that younger members of the 'Corner' may not realize, is that back then, audio systems weren't very advanced, or not by today's standards, and the true audiophiles of the day didn't bother at all with vinyl, but rather relied opon pre-recorded tapes, and there must be of the masters for the pre-recs in A&M's vaults, which can (as I'd imagine) be suitable for c.d.s. Now, I've one 24-bit c.d., and honestly, I can't detect any difference between it and standard 16-bit, as I've a few overlaps involved between them, so I don't believe that going beyond 16 bits is sensible, but instead, and perhaps D.V.D. may surpass c.d. as a carrier unit, with the possibility of layering one complete program over another, the issue should lie in developing better playback systems i.e. better sampling, digital-to-analog, and so forth ( the main prob with early c.d.s wasn't so much the disks, but it was inadequate analog filters, if my history is correct, and today, I think that upgrading hardware will result in enhanced sound reproduction. For now, your average c.d. player won't appreciate the subtle nuances of a higher bit-rate, but in the future, should fully optical systems become available for the mass-market, maybe then the improvements made by such higher bit-rates may become apparent, but for now, it's best to restrict that to masters, like let's say recording two digital masters simultaniously, and reserving the higher bit-rate for archiving...well, I'm clearly running amock, so I'll split for now, but what say ye?
Warm Wishes,
Steve

 

[Houckster]

It is certainly true that the typical music system in the 60's was unable to benefit from using the 1st generation recording tapes. Compressed copies of the session tapes were also used produce records where the needle wouldn't jump out of the groove, especially on the inner two tracks. Today even some lo-fi systems can compete with systems costing thousands back then. Such is the miracle of electronics and computer chips. This then is the challenge for a really first class boxed set. Only the original session tapes will do. The TJB's music will never be background music to us so any shortcomings will be all the more noticeable.

In my previous post, I was referring to the SACD format which would allow all the music to be faithfully reflected. This format has my vote since the dual-layer disc will play on a CD machine until decently priced and properly configured machines reach the market. Using digital mapping techniques, some of the increased quality of the SACD format can be realized in the 16-bit CD format. The Telarc SACDs mostly use this technology.

You made an interesting statement about vinyl being ignored by audiophiles. My memory is a bit different. Vinyl was the premier playback medium while reel-to-reel was primarily a recording medium though as you note, prerecorded tapes were available. The trouble with RTR was that vinyl was far superior in track access, storage, and in the case of Mobil Fidelity recordings, sound. Even then, thousands could be spent on turntables and then even thousands more could be spent on tonearms and needle/cartridges, and phone amps. Today, the demand is still there (just look at the Audio Advisor website) while RTR is nearly extinct.

Even in its heyday, RTR was dwarfed by the vinyl market and RTR album issues were primarily the province of artists who catered to the audiophile audience. I don't believe I ever saw a Beetles album or a TJB album that was issued in RTR.

RTR eventually lost the recording wars to cassette tape which as the '70s came on had gained Dolby B and were beginning to reach the quality of pre-recorded RTR. Today, it takes some serious listening to distinguish the audio quality of a cassette recording with metal tape and Dolby S/HX-Pro from CDs.

 

[Rudy]

One digital technology that I'm awaiting is Sony's Direct Stream Digital system:

Sony's Direct Stream Digital (DSD) system is not only a possibility, but a reality. The DSD system uses a 1-bit delta-sigma modulated word, sampled at 2.8224 MHz - that is 64 times 44.1 kHz. According to Sony, the frequency response extends to over 100 kHz, and has a dynamic range better than 24 bits of PCM digital. In the DSD system, the frequency response and dynamic range are defined by the delta-sigma modulator noise shaping and these two characteristics can be traded off against each other.

What makes DSD shine sonically is that the pure 1-bit signal does not get decimated or changed in the process of recording or playback; there are no brick wall filters. This is a much simpler process and is really more analog like. The 1-bit DSD signal can be down converted to any of the current digital formats and also the proposed new high-density formats, including 96 kHz, 24-bit.

Full article here:

http://www.dmprecords.com/technology.htm

Might be overkill for just a remastering project, but at least it would be saved digitally in a superior format that, in the future, could be taken advantage of without having to transfer the tapes all over again.

I just wonder how well the tapes are holding up, though. The song "Tijuana Taxi" is in a shambles, if Definitive Hits is any indication. And other A&M tapes (like Brasil '66's Equinox) show signs of increased dropouts over the years. Storage is the issue--any magnetic tape, stored improperly, won't last...even if rarely played. (I have a few such relics in my own collection.) I only hope they can rescue what they can, while they still have a chance.

-= N =-

 

[Houckster]

Rudy: My sentiments exactly. While DSD might seem like overkill, one of the design objectives of this format was the preservation of analog recordings that will be lost to the ravages of time in the near future. Even now, it's going to take a really talented technician to product digital copies which eliminate the dropouts and other deterioriations that were evident on even the TJB CD reissues of 10+ years ago. Sadly, I don't think there was any thought that this music might still be in demand in 30 years.

I just hope that Herb Alpert realizes just how important this music is and acts accordingly. The ball's in his court.

 

[venturaguy49]

I'll begin by mentionin that back when, like circa 1970, a close friend
of mine switched over to open reel-to-reel taps, and I was bowled over by their sonic qualities, which offered more brilliance than vinyl could achieve, but then again, back then, typical stereo involved twin styli, and so (this is as I've been told) compression was neccessary to prevent the grooves from running together, but with pre-recorded tapes, there was a natural quality that I considered most pleasing. As for T.J.B. tapes, in a thrift store I found two of them: ("Whipped Cream" and "S.R.O.", and I also aquired an old Viking open-reel machine, which was yet another thriftstore special, and during that time, c.d.s had just began appearing, and I'd had (I think) one that which was dubbed onto cassette, so those T.J.B. tapes sounded cool to me by comparison to both the dubbed c.d., as well as the viny versions of the T.J.B. albums, but alas, those tapes were brittle, and so I believe that I got some 5 plays from them before they went to pieces, but one thing's for sure, and that's the sonic qualities of the "S.R.O." tape would be most pleasing on c.d. When you get right down to it, the chief advantage to c.d. has always been the lack of surface noise ala tapes, and the fabulous durabiliy of a medium that doesn't involve any physical contact during play, which by my standards, is pretty darned nifty! Those reasons, along with a carrier unit that is programmable, and can be used in a portable player (include some powered speakers, and one has a great little entertainment package that can go just about anywhere, so c.d.s represent on of the most practical mediums that I've encountered, but the downside, for record companies, may lie in the c.d.'s remarkable durability, as they don't depreciate easily, and are exchangable, reducing the need to purchas new one; one only needs know someone to trade with, so I'd imagine that record companies rue the day that they issued them, but that's just my observation, and I'm known for seeking a different way of percieving things. nonetheless, it just seems to me that c.d.s have provided the consumer with a storage unit that is impervious to the kind of damage that was inherant with vinyl and tapes, making compact disk a valuable investment...not one of my c.d.s sounds 'used', which cannot be said of vinyl. Maybe someday, a hybrid of the classic phonograph will be introduced, with a laser emitted via a hollow stylus, and so long as it doesn't meander through the damaged grooves, and let's say the missing segments of groove be corrected via digital technology ala the digital correction used by c.d. machines. it's like the Druids would say: food for thought, and grounds for further research. Oh, as a closer, on the issue of T.J.Taxi sounding ragged, the version that appears on the c.d. issue of "Going Places" sounds decent enough, and the version that appears on "Classics Vol One" is reminiscent of that which was issued on the single, with that reverb, which A&M usually eschewed, unlike most other record co.s that relied on it. also, a cool feature of the aforementioned 'Classics' c.d. is clean mix of the
gorgeous "More and More Amor", which was always of rough-soundind track on the vinyl issue, but here, at long last, is a verion of one of the most lovely T.J.B. performances ever that sounds nice and clean...why wasn't this smoother one used earlier on? Well, the Druids would also say "better late than ever."
Warm Wishes,
Steve

 

[Houckster]

Does anyone know if there is a time limit for posting? I had composed a post and when I went to submit, it sent me to the logon screen and I lost all my work. This is the second time this has happened!

 

[venturaguy49]

Yes, houck, and I too have been refused on the basis (I'd imagine) my long-winded postings, and one you too tend to have much to say, and I hope that you continue, as I really enjoy your comments, as I do with all of the others. It's a pleasure to hear from clearly intelligent folk that have much to contribute, but now for the momen't $60,000 Question: where's Harry, of whom we haven't heard from for a spell?
Warm Wishes,
Steve, who in his best Gunther Tootie voice sez "oooh oooh, me thinks that the Capt. will drop in any time now!"

 

[Houckster]

From now on, I'm going to write my posts in Notepad and then drop the text in.

This is such a short post, I'm ashamed!

 

[Houckster]

Venturaguy49: You are certainly correct about CDs being the salvation of recorded music. When you get a decent recording of an important album and it self-destructs after just five plays, it's disheartening to say the least. By the time the mid-70s came around, I was so disgusted with the poor quality of recorded music that I stopped buying music for almost 15 years. It wasn&'t that I trashed my records and then complained about the noise, I actually never played my LPs much. With the high wear rate of records, even with above average equipment, I always dubbed a copy to tape and listened to that rather than the record. The sound quality was bad from the first.

Eventually, I put my stereo system away and did other things. I didn't miss it a bit either. The disgusting quality of LPs essentially meant that the record company did not respect the consumer. Prior to that time, I spent a lot of money on music so I looked at my departure from the music market as a yearly fine against the record companies and took a good deal of pleasure in that thought.

When the CD format became available, it was a revelation. I still have my first CDs and they still sound great. Of course, the big problem is getting the music I want. Reissues have been my first priority since I got back into music. I'm still trying to replace those old scratchy albums I have. TJB reissues are just one instance of my frustration.

Another area of frustration is the uneven quality of recordings that you mentioned. This is particularly perplexing in the case of Tijuana Taxi for which a digital copy has existed for 12-14 years now. When they made Definitive Hits, a copy could have been ripped from a Going Places CD if the original session tapes were not available. It's my guess that 2nd or 3rd generation tapes were used. This is the legacy of short-sighted record companies that didn't and maybe still don't have effective storage facilities so that their recorded music is protected against environmental deterioration and from getting lost. They don't mind charging us 1st rate music prices though.

With regard to the record companies wishing they had never issued the CD format, my guess is that this regret came only after the advent of the cheap CD burner and the Internet which made music copying and distribution simple. All of this was predicated on the policies of the record companies which meant that people could not get the music they wanted at a fair price. Even some very popular albums from the 60s and 70s still haven't been reissued. When people see the record companies acting strictly for their own self-interest, people will tend to do the same.

The next few years could see some of the most dragonian legislation concerning recording music and copying rights that anyone ever dreamed of. I'm hoping that a TJB boxed set becomes available before then. Though it takes different forms, we all still face the same basic problem we've always had, getting the music we want with good sound quality. In the coming years, it doesn't look like it's going to get any easier.

 

[venturaguy49]

On the issue of D.R.M., I to come down on both sides simultaniously, and while I agree that Intellectual Rights must be respected, the issue of Fair Use also comes into play, also, and the draconian measures that you've referred to are the result (largely so) of Bill Gates and my fav'rite corporation, Micro$oft. One, should they wish to learn more, and maybe much more than they ever wanted to, can go to their search window, and type in the sequence of words: palladium ross anderson faq
separated, of course by a space or two. Here, one will read from a Professor
of Computer Science at Cambridge University in the U.K. Dr. Anderson provides a lengthy critique on the upcoming production from that most unholy of aliances known as Wintel, or a contraction of M.$.'s Windows and Intel. Now, people that know me well, also know that I'm an Apple guy, and one that is quite knowledgable of the Micro$oft Anti-trust case, and I've many exciting depositions on file from companies ranging from not only Apple, whos original Macintosh O.S. was copied to become Windows, and to the extent that Win also includes a glitch that also appears in the Mac version, which may be purely coincedential, but Apple used M.$. folk during the process of translating Xerox's Graphic User Interface stuff, with mouse and icons, and in gratitude to M.$. for their assistance, Apple offered a vague contract for use (I presume) of software developed during the joint Apple/M.$. venture, and just what stuff did Micro$oft use? What Gates and Co. did was steal the very O.S. that they worked with Apple to achieve...lol no wonder they participated, cuz they, in truth, were nada but moles...cool eh? Well, there's a whole lot to the story than that, and along with Apple, there's Netscape, TrueVision, Compaq and others that have testified to Micro$oft's nasty business pracitices, like when Apple introduced QuickTime, which was praised by comp makers, but M.$. wanted the media market for itself, so Apple was approached about scrapping Q.T., and when they refused, then good ol' M.$. requested that Apple allow Q.T. be inserted into a M.$. application, but Apple still refused (after haven had their Mac O.S. ripped-off by M.$., Apple was wise to have learned their lesson about Pirate Bill, eh? Well, Gates eventually re-tooled the Internet Explorer, so that Q.T. couldn't be accessed properly, causing many folks to believe that Apple's software was faulty, undermining faith in what we Maccies call 'iApps'. Folks, I don't trust Micro$oft any closer that Hubble can see 'em! So to the issue of D.R.M.: although I'm in agreement that we should protect copyrights, we're talking about M.$., and I don't trust a corporation that wants no less than to own the train, the tracks, the station, and will lobby legislators to enact fav'rable laws, too.In short, Micro$oft has repeatedly proven itself to be greedy, and word had it that Gates is in the process of aquiring Nintendo, so what's next? The bottom-line should be to establish a D.R.M. that respects both the copyright owner, and the consumer alike, but for goodness sakes, doesn't become the nighmare that Dr. Anderson has predicted, with the spoils going into M.$.s coffers, and the Internet taken hostage. This Internet is ours, and not just a thing for Pirate Bill to seize controll of in order to sate his greed!
Warm Wishes,
Steve, your Appleguy at large

 

[Harry]

but now for the momen't $60,000 Question: where's Harry, of whom we haven't heard from for a spell?

I'm here -- just haven't had much to say in the past few days!

Harry
...uncharacteristically quiet, online...

 

[Rudy]

*sigh*

Do we need yet ANOTHER Microsoft rant? Puhleeze...

-= N =-

 

[venturaguy49]

Yeah, I agree, and what I'd like to see within the next few years will be advanced emulation software, so that one can have anything available, so that it'll be possible to have all the major O.S.'s, browsers, and what-not on a single machine...variety being the spice of life that it is, so all flavors of Win, or Mac, linux, and of course Amiga, cuz who doesn't want that! Also, it would be so cool if we could have simulated classic stereos complete with functional (albeit via mouse) front-ends. I can dig having like a Sansui 9090, or Marantz 2265, and with an advanced Internet radio that can be visually represented with a traditional sliderule...ok, so I'm feeling nostalgic, but admit it, that it could be neat! Or maybe tube (valve) emulation, for classic Scott, Fisher or whatever, so the same emulation technology that enables shifting O.S.'s at will may also put one's fav'rite audo gear onto their desktop, so for me, it's up with emulators. Man, I can just see myself messing around with that S-9090 right now!
I'm most likely the only one that's interested, but man it would be way cool!
Warm Wishes, Steve, who can just about see those tuning/ signal strength meters, and fiddle with the tunover controll...man do I lust for the knobs, toggles and switches of a real stereo rig! (but I'll settle for mouse-controll)
P.S. sometime listen to the T.J.B. on a classic tube-powered Magnavox, as I had ages ago, as it's freakin' awesome!

 

[Harry]

Oh, as a closer, on the issue of T.J.Taxi sounding ragged, the version that appears on the c.d. issue of "Going Places" sounds decent enough, and the version that appears on "Classics Vol One" is reminiscent of that which was issued on the single, with that reverb, which A&M usually eschewed, unlike most other record co.s that relied on it. also, a cool feature of the aforementioned 'Classics' c.d. is clean mix of the gorgeous "More and More Amor", which was always of rough-sounding track on the vinyl issue, but here, at long last, is a verion of one of the most lovely T.J.B. performances ever that sounds nice and clean...why wasn't this smoother one used earlier on?

Maybe it's me, but "More And More Amor" sounds SO much better on the GOING PLACES CDs that were issued in both the US and Japan. WAY better than what's on CLASSICS VOL 1. The CLASSICS version sounds muddy and lifeless to me -- the whole CD, not just the one track.

Harry
NP: GOING PLACES - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

I've always thought that the arrangements and the songs from the "Lonely Bull" album to the "What Now My Love" album were and are timeless works. But I'm wondering if Alpert & Co. might think that the "SRO" album to the "Summertime" album are dated in there over all approach. There was a lot of "cliche-ish and corney stuff coming out in the late sixties and early seventies. Just thinkin' what do you all think?
Later amigos...Jay

 

[Houckster]

...I'm wondering if Alpert & Co. might think that the "SRO" album to the "Summertime" album are dated in there over all approach. There was a lot of "cliche-ish and corney stuff coming out in the late sixties and early seventies. Just thinkin' what do you all think?
Later amigos...Jay

All I can say is that I'll take whatever reissues thay have. Yes, some of the tracks do seem to be somewhat associated with specific periods of time but is that necessarily bad? So is a lot of classical music. I think that the real key is to listen to the music for what it is and not try to impose today's standards on it. Corny? Just a matter of individual opinion.

Well, that's as close as I come to a deep thought so I think I'll quit now and go take an aspirin.

 

[venturaguy49]

As usual, any time that a major act folds, their output as a group always seems to eclipse solo works; in other circles, it's the Beatles vs. theirseparate endeavors, and because I'm also a Beatles fan, I can dig it, but one can't restrict their enjoyment, right? While admittedly, the T.J.B. was a such an accessable outfit, and so darned pleasant to listen to, that it's difficult not to feel biased, but then again, one needs only to mention some cool recording of Herb's to appreciate that the guy didn't just become a 'past master', relegated to playing oldies shows. Items such as "Rise", "Magic Man", "Fandango", "Beyond", and others, while not the T.J.B., are not so many 'also-rans'...lol there's plenty to enjoy in those fine productions, but, as most of us that were 'round during the 60's think, somehow the T.J.B. provided the highest concentration of appealing music...but once again, there's items such as "Kamali", "Manhattan Melody", "Aranjuez", "Route 101", "Angelina", "Midnight Tango", and many others that are equally enjoyable, had the misfortune of not been issued during the 'good ol' days', and aye, there's the rub: it's frequently down to what and when one is reminded of, and to this guy that grew up in an upper middle-class family during the 50's-60's, that earlier era has an appeal that I can't deny, but one must be willing to grow, and move with the times, and find value in the present, or risk becoming stale, and that's the challenge that artists encounter, and the best are able to re-invent themselves...lol othewise, what results is a layer of mold, and a place in history, instead of continuing to remain vital. I guess that in Beethoven's time, there were some that bemoaned Ludwig haven abandoned the harpsichord, in favor of the new-fangled pianoforte, but progress usually involves change, and those that can't keep pace usually feel left out...ok, so even your truly finds himself stuck in the there-and-then...lol much as I dig synthesizers and such, I'll take a marimba any ol' day, and oh, to find oneself 'tween a rock and a hard place, and now I'm joining the houckster, as it's now Excederin Headache # in zillion for me.
Warm Wishes,
Steve

List of things to do:
1.) take aspirin
2.) call about hormone replacement therapy
3.) take more aspirin
4.)

sheeeze, I just know that there was another item, but my lastest
'señor moment' seems to have...oh what's the word that I'm after...
oh **** I can't think of it, but I will the instant that I send this thing.
venturaguy49 <---- thinks that middle-age sux!

 

[DAN BOLTON]

...I'm wondering if Alpert & Co. might think that the "SRO" album to the "Summertime" album are dated in there over all approach. There was a lot of "cliche-ish and corney stuff coming out in the late sixties and early seventies. Just thinkin' what do you all think?
Later amigos...Jay

All I can say is that I'll take whatever reissues thay have. Yes, some of the tracks do seem to be somewhat associated with specific periods of time but is that necessarily bad? So is a lot of classical music. I think that the real key is to listen to the music for what it is and not try to impose today's standards on it. Corny? Just a matter of individual opinion.

Well, that's as close as I come to a deep thought so I think I'll quit now and go take an aspirin.

Chuck Champlin said it best in the liner notes on the back of GREATEST HITS...."It retains it's flavor, which is the true test of a classic.." ...or words to that effect. Those "cliches" are what gives the music its flavor!!


Dan

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Ummmm...how sweet it is.....



Dan, who should've added that line to his last post....

 

[venturaguy49]

Me agrees with both you and Mr. Champlin...that stuff, lasts and lasts and lasts, because it's so darned good, and as for 'corny', they were far from it! Although one of the facets of the T.J.B. was their fine use of humor they always kept in in check. A lesser group may've relied opon corn, but with the 'Brass', arrangements were carefully crafted to avoid uneccessary sillyness. As a rule, the B.M.B. provided the goofier moments, and of course, most all of us dug them for it! However, the T.J.B. was a chic outfit that used humor to balance their otherwise sophisticated instrumentals. The T.J.B./B.M.B. were like two sides of the same coin, with each in balance of the other, and of course, Wechter and Co. offered many romantic items with a pleasing sensuality that contrasted their image as a comical group...one only needs mention "Red Roses...", or "Charade", " Maria's First Rose", or the Alpert-penned "Tomarrow Will Be Better"...gorgeous! But the B.M.B.'s stock- in- trade would always be their delightful quirkiness, and oh, speaking of, my 3-fer of them from Timeless just arrived yesterday, and not the 6-8 weeks as I thought, so it's thanx to the 'Corner' for the info! I was gonna say something else, but me latest 'geezer moment' hath come 'bout, and now I can't recall what it wuz and so I'll split 4 now. Have a pleasant one, y'all!
Warm Wishes,
Steve

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

Hola amigos! I'm with you. I'd love to have CDzzz of all of da old stuff. I just thought I'd put an edge on. Paz ...Jay

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Hola amigos! I'm with you. I'd love to have CDzzz of all of da old stuff. I just thought I'd put an edge on. Paz ...Jay

We really figured that was the case...


Dan, bracing for colder weather after a 70 degree day in Indiana in mid-November with mucho storms....

 

[venturaguy49]

Not only would I just love to have available c.d.s of that wonderful old stuff, so Jay, I'm with ya there...but also, I'd also appreciate knowing how to release the cartridge from my c.d. changer that does contain the bulk of my T.J.B. c.d.s, which contains six of them, and I've no idea what to do. This particular machine, which is a Hitachi '6 plus 6', or one that accepts two cartridges, began malfunctioning while after I inserted a cartridge (actually called a magazine) into the second slot, and now I can't remove anything, so I'm just place the machine on end, so that the stuck c.d. magazines can be vertically positioned, which is how they normally are, when in their boxes.
If anyone knows how to manually eject them, I'd be appreciate it mucho, as the first six T.J.B. disks are within it, and I'd like to use them in this comp...maybe one of the T.J.B. Dudes will know how to fineggle them lose.
Warm Wishes,
Steve, who at least has his 'Foursider' c.d. to use in this machine

Taking another swig o' that hookah, venturaguy49 knocks on wood that maybe, just maybe, someone 'round here knows how to resolve this prob.

 

[Houckster]

I just hit the TIJUANABRASS.COM website and saw their "Teaser":

"... while we can't give out any dates or other specific details (for obvious reasons), there is reportedly some work being done on the old TJB masters for eventual release. Box set? Individual albums? That's up in the air, but as soon as we have more concrete details, we'll be among the first to post them here!"

Anyone heard anything further on this???

Why doesn't my formatting work?

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I just hit the TIJUANABRASS.COM website and saw their "Teaser":

Anyone heard anything further on this???

TijuanaBrass.com is part of this website, and this was posted a few weeks ago when someone asked about a mint mono copy of Herb's Going Places LP. All we know for now is that something is in the works, but it will be quite some time before anything is released - maybe a year or two (my guess, anyway). Once something is more concrete, you can be assured that we'll have it posted ASAP!


Capt. Bacardi