Barry talking about Karen
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Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
Gary, I have that poster and had it professionally framed many years ago, the frame has this gold fine line that picks up the gold line in the poster. I really love it, I took this photo many years ago, had to put it on the floor to avoid flash and try to capture it's beauty.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
I also have the 35th Anniv Universal Limited Edition signed by Richard Carpenter framed artwork, you may not be able to see but I have #009 of #100. Again it's on the floor to avoid flash return but it's still showing some.
Knew I was forgetting one. Manilow's version was a cover of England Dan and John Ford Coley, but he did beat the Carpenters to it.
That's right. Universal had 100 special copies of GOLD manufactured with special numbering and labeling and had Richard Carpenter sign them. They put them up for auction on eBay, a few at a time, with different numbers throughout the 100. Early bidders, including some of our members, paid big bucks for those early copies. I recall sitting back and watching a bunch of auctions and found a bunch that were expiring at once. Several had a lot of action and one had very little action, so I waited for the expiration time and snagged it for $46. And I got a low number too, #012/100.
Then later, after quite a few of these were sold, they offered some that were mounted in a frame, like Chris' picture above. It looks like Richard did all of his autographing on June 11, 2004. Looking back over some of the old threads, it looks like Chris got #9, Andrew got #10 (and others), and I got #12.
Harry
Then later, after quite a few of these were sold, they offered some that were mounted in a frame, like Chris' picture above. It looks like Richard did all of his autographing on June 11, 2004. Looking back over some of the old threads, it looks like Chris got #9, Andrew got #10 (and others), and I got #12.
Harry
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I came across this the other day and thought I'd post it here...Off topic slightly but Barry mentions he never thought of himself as a singer and this reminded me of Karen being a drummer who sang. He knocks out one song after another at the piano. I thought you might enjoy it 
Actorman
Well-Known Member
That Sinatra/Lauper duet is one of my all-time favorites, but technically it wasn't a "duet with the dead." That track was released in 1992. Frank didn't die until 1998. However, it was a studio-manipulated recording like the Cole duet (and countless others since), so I get where you're coming from.
Aaron Moyer
Member
I had always hoped that Karen would sing Manilow's "All the Time." Yes, I think they could have worked together very nicely.
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
that is a beaut! I'd buy one of these if any were still floating around....I also have the 35th Anniv Universal Limited Edition signed by Richard Carpenter framed artwork, you may not be able to see but I have #009 of #100. Again it's on the floor to avoid flash return but it's still showing some.
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
Here's the show...jump to 24m40s for his comments about Karen. Listen to the audience reaction when he mentions her name
and a hush fell over the crowd at the mention of Karen's name....
WYBIMLA
Well-Known Member
Official posthumous releases is always interesting...
It has to feel 'right'. You also think of words like "tasteful" and "respectful" in a association with such a thing.
It can serve to pay respects, but it's limited.
It has to be done well. Even something like sampling can be done well, but it's the same thing that it has equal chance of being awful. Those things aren't always approved of officially, but yea I'm talking about official posthumous releases....
As a buyer I want to know about the relationship between the artists that are dueting... maybe style alone can't hold it all together... and maybe it'd be nice if the producers had relationship to the lead artist.
I like the idea of some authenticity to the project. The people involved have some basis for being there, and the "why we did it" is answered behind putting out the album and it's respectful. I might be onboard to purchase that album if I know a bit more about it, and it seems that it was done 'right'.
I guess for some of Barry's "Dream duets album" it's alright... but I'm going to sound cynical... Overall it doesn't necessarily add that much to the songs...
Virtually, it's impossible to change much about the vocal of the deceased person. That remains static while the living artist dances around it.
It's fun in some ways to imagine along with him, but you can definitely hear how his voice had aged which is also a distraction.
Releasing these songs in this manner doesn't seem necessary in my view... and part of me thinks "get your own song" or work with living people that are probably aching to work with you. He's a legend in his own right... Why revisit all of this? Did he even meet the people he's made himself sing with?
I know that sound negative, but that's what I'm thinking.
If it were a more regular duets album he's be in the exact same company as what Streisand was doing last year too. The ageing star revisiting their catalogue for some reason along with contemporary artists. That seems to be a thing now. Idk maybe he wanted to do something a bit different. It shows a longing for how things used to be... it's okay... it's just not that exciting after it's release date.
Posthumous releases just spell disaster for the most part. There's a very famous (possibly infamous) example of how awful a posthumous release can be...
I'm a Michael Jackson fan, and his 2010 album "Michael" was a disaster. This is not my opinion alone... to have anyone's legacy tarnished with ideas of an impostor on a vocal. A false vocal! Believe me there's fans that are still very angry about that. And the idea of producers he never worked with touching his artwork doesn't sit right either. Thing is an remains that he's not here to approve of any of it. It's a very slippery slope. The point is he didn't finish the songs and that's that. He put out what he could in his lifetime. Yet, still there's mass appeal for the idea of "a new MJ album", but it's very faulty once that initial excitement has worn off.
Additionally, I don't listen to an abundance of Elvis music, but I've read that the man never was too fond of duets. During his life he hardly or never did them. So, why on earth would his estate make a duets album? Elvis didn't know any of the people on that album did he?
Recently I saw a duet with him and Susan Boyle! ... I mean WHAT?
This duets thing can get out of hand. It's good as a way to fantasize and peaks your curiosity, but really??
Let's be real... some of it doesn't have to happen. I mean, for some like Susan Boyle ... she's a good singer... whatever, but absolutely little relation to Elvis Presley. Worlds apart. It doesn't work, imo. For a casual listener I suppose it's pleasant, but that one was hard for me.
Let's imagine. Let's have fun, but not so much that our heads fall off.
In The Carpenters history I think Richard did a very good job. He has avoided quite a bit of disaster . If he wasn't a decent guy that would have showed, but overall we see a lot of class. Which is wonderful! I like the idea of "Improved quality"... he's not going around re-arranging things and re-writing everything... he's played things pretty well the exact same way and upgraded it. You know, I like that.
Speaking of posthumous releases, "Voice of the heart" definitely in its inception seemed quite okay to put out as a tribute.
Richard is there as the "other half". Karen had done her parts, and Rich just had to fill out the rest of the production. I agree when he said 'leaving all the good music on the shelf just didn't feel right'. What felt 'right' was releasing that music... maybe a bit too soon, but if the inclusion of the choir is it's only downfall... then that's not so bad. If that's the worst case scenario I guess we can live with that.
I think the next couple "new" releases suffer a bit. I keep thinking lately how strange "Lovelines" really was.
Looking through their catalogue, it doesn't serve very well, imo. It's only because of the solo material that I think that. At first glance or in the short term of '89 it's pretty harmless considering the outcry for the mysterious KC solo album material at the time.
When it comes down to it... the solo material should have remained separate. It's not "classic Carpenters". It's not Carpenters at all.
And to have remixed the few songs might have done more harm than good. That just looks bad. Perfectionism gone loco.
"Lovelines" album should have been under another title and replaced those four songs with others that actually were under the duos name.
Just things like this show through posthumous material. It's a shame cause like anybody I want to hear more. Yet, it gets tainted. The projects carry baggage.
The "As time goes by" album could have easily been included in a box set, but not as a stand alone album.
Anyways, I can see why Barry couldn't have chosen a Carpenters song to do a duet with. That would have been weird, and it didn't happen so that's good.
Being attached to a duo has saved her from these kinds of things or rather it's been Richard all these years that has saved her from having official releases being messed with. That's actually really nice in a way. There could have been some dooseys.
We got what we got from what Karen did in her lifetime.
For me Barry's comments are really interesting about KC's solo album. There was a time I would have championed "Karen Carpenter (album)" and thought Barry was "wrong and he definitely could have worked with that material! What is he saying?", BUT now in a way this is more confirmation of some of the things we've heard all along. In other words... in nicer words... Barry's nearly saying what all the other guys probably think about it. It's not as good as you'd expect. Obviously it's not a style Barry can conform to. Barry doing a duet with Karen wasn't meant to be... not then and not now... no dice.
It seems nobody wants to touch the solo material... there's not been like a re-issue or remastered edition... only the re-categorization of "Lovelines (album)" that served as a curiosity piece probably more than anything...
When was the last time you heard any of KC's solo songs used on a movie soundtrack or anything like that?
How much has it had in relation to pop culture or influence? It's uncomfortable to even talk about it.
Do these things say anything about whether or not it's "good"? I think it does in a way.
You know, hearing John Bettis saying "if A&M thought they had a hit on their hands they wouldn't have hesitated to put it out". When you have people in the business like that who know what they're talking about saying something's not as great as it should be... we don't have to doubt them... all in all it's their opinion, but I trust their judgement and how mine has developed too.
Could the shelving situation have been handled better? Absolutely! No question. But, if it's as good as some people think it is then I bet someone like Barry Manilow would have jumped at the chance to inadvertently draw more attention to Karen's work, but there was nothing there to work with. Certainly not in Barry's case. Really I can't quite picture anybody doing a duet with KC's solo stuff for that matter... I guess besides the duet that's already on there... I mean it's technically possible, but I just can't hear it right now, nor do I think it would add that much to it.
I don't want to sound like I'm trashing Karen's solo album. I'm not. I'd love for anybody to enjoy Karen's solo work! There's some great, treasured moments there. I think the moment it was shelved says something about it. Not everything about it, but there was some reason to do such a thing. In theory if it was really, really good and irresistible then we wouldn't be having this problem. It's no offence to anyone who worked on it. It's how it is.
I'm glad Barry left it alone.
For the most part I hope everybody leaves it alone. Let's visit it as it is. Sure celebrate it, but with all this said we don't really need any more re-mixes or duets of Karen's solo work.
Unless the day comes where we get a remastered version with a few of the outtakes (I'd leave out "midnight" for sure because of the audible error in Karen's reading)...I could stand a release like that... but as far as adding anything to it... at a certain point the best thing you can do is leave it alone...
Past is in the past... leave it be... I don't mind a little shout out here and there during an interview or a little something, but it can be taken too far...
It has to feel 'right'. You also think of words like "tasteful" and "respectful" in a association with such a thing.
It can serve to pay respects, but it's limited.
It has to be done well. Even something like sampling can be done well, but it's the same thing that it has equal chance of being awful. Those things aren't always approved of officially, but yea I'm talking about official posthumous releases....
As a buyer I want to know about the relationship between the artists that are dueting... maybe style alone can't hold it all together... and maybe it'd be nice if the producers had relationship to the lead artist.
I like the idea of some authenticity to the project. The people involved have some basis for being there, and the "why we did it" is answered behind putting out the album and it's respectful. I might be onboard to purchase that album if I know a bit more about it, and it seems that it was done 'right'.
I guess for some of Barry's "Dream duets album" it's alright... but I'm going to sound cynical... Overall it doesn't necessarily add that much to the songs...
Virtually, it's impossible to change much about the vocal of the deceased person. That remains static while the living artist dances around it.
It's fun in some ways to imagine along with him, but you can definitely hear how his voice had aged which is also a distraction.
Releasing these songs in this manner doesn't seem necessary in my view... and part of me thinks "get your own song" or work with living people that are probably aching to work with you. He's a legend in his own right... Why revisit all of this? Did he even meet the people he's made himself sing with?
I know that sound negative, but that's what I'm thinking.
If it were a more regular duets album he's be in the exact same company as what Streisand was doing last year too. The ageing star revisiting their catalogue for some reason along with contemporary artists. That seems to be a thing now. Idk maybe he wanted to do something a bit different. It shows a longing for how things used to be... it's okay... it's just not that exciting after it's release date.
Posthumous releases just spell disaster for the most part. There's a very famous (possibly infamous) example of how awful a posthumous release can be...
I'm a Michael Jackson fan, and his 2010 album "Michael" was a disaster. This is not my opinion alone... to have anyone's legacy tarnished with ideas of an impostor on a vocal. A false vocal! Believe me there's fans that are still very angry about that. And the idea of producers he never worked with touching his artwork doesn't sit right either. Thing is an remains that he's not here to approve of any of it. It's a very slippery slope. The point is he didn't finish the songs and that's that. He put out what he could in his lifetime. Yet, still there's mass appeal for the idea of "a new MJ album", but it's very faulty once that initial excitement has worn off.
Additionally, I don't listen to an abundance of Elvis music, but I've read that the man never was too fond of duets. During his life he hardly or never did them. So, why on earth would his estate make a duets album? Elvis didn't know any of the people on that album did he?
Recently I saw a duet with him and Susan Boyle! ... I mean WHAT?
This duets thing can get out of hand. It's good as a way to fantasize and peaks your curiosity, but really??
Let's be real... some of it doesn't have to happen. I mean, for some like Susan Boyle ... she's a good singer... whatever, but absolutely little relation to Elvis Presley. Worlds apart. It doesn't work, imo. For a casual listener I suppose it's pleasant, but that one was hard for me.
Let's imagine. Let's have fun, but not so much that our heads fall off.
In The Carpenters history I think Richard did a very good job. He has avoided quite a bit of disaster . If he wasn't a decent guy that would have showed, but overall we see a lot of class. Which is wonderful! I like the idea of "Improved quality"... he's not going around re-arranging things and re-writing everything... he's played things pretty well the exact same way and upgraded it. You know, I like that.
Speaking of posthumous releases, "Voice of the heart" definitely in its inception seemed quite okay to put out as a tribute.
Richard is there as the "other half". Karen had done her parts, and Rich just had to fill out the rest of the production. I agree when he said 'leaving all the good music on the shelf just didn't feel right'. What felt 'right' was releasing that music... maybe a bit too soon, but if the inclusion of the choir is it's only downfall... then that's not so bad. If that's the worst case scenario I guess we can live with that.
I think the next couple "new" releases suffer a bit. I keep thinking lately how strange "Lovelines" really was.
Looking through their catalogue, it doesn't serve very well, imo. It's only because of the solo material that I think that. At first glance or in the short term of '89 it's pretty harmless considering the outcry for the mysterious KC solo album material at the time.
When it comes down to it... the solo material should have remained separate. It's not "classic Carpenters". It's not Carpenters at all.
And to have remixed the few songs might have done more harm than good. That just looks bad. Perfectionism gone loco.
"Lovelines" album should have been under another title and replaced those four songs with others that actually were under the duos name.
Just things like this show through posthumous material. It's a shame cause like anybody I want to hear more. Yet, it gets tainted. The projects carry baggage.
The "As time goes by" album could have easily been included in a box set, but not as a stand alone album.
Anyways, I can see why Barry couldn't have chosen a Carpenters song to do a duet with. That would have been weird, and it didn't happen so that's good.
Being attached to a duo has saved her from these kinds of things or rather it's been Richard all these years that has saved her from having official releases being messed with. That's actually really nice in a way. There could have been some dooseys.
We got what we got from what Karen did in her lifetime.
For me Barry's comments are really interesting about KC's solo album. There was a time I would have championed "Karen Carpenter (album)" and thought Barry was "wrong and he definitely could have worked with that material! What is he saying?", BUT now in a way this is more confirmation of some of the things we've heard all along. In other words... in nicer words... Barry's nearly saying what all the other guys probably think about it. It's not as good as you'd expect. Obviously it's not a style Barry can conform to. Barry doing a duet with Karen wasn't meant to be... not then and not now... no dice.
It seems nobody wants to touch the solo material... there's not been like a re-issue or remastered edition... only the re-categorization of "Lovelines (album)" that served as a curiosity piece probably more than anything...
When was the last time you heard any of KC's solo songs used on a movie soundtrack or anything like that?
How much has it had in relation to pop culture or influence? It's uncomfortable to even talk about it.
Do these things say anything about whether or not it's "good"? I think it does in a way.
You know, hearing John Bettis saying "if A&M thought they had a hit on their hands they wouldn't have hesitated to put it out". When you have people in the business like that who know what they're talking about saying something's not as great as it should be... we don't have to doubt them... all in all it's their opinion, but I trust their judgement and how mine has developed too.
Could the shelving situation have been handled better? Absolutely! No question. But, if it's as good as some people think it is then I bet someone like Barry Manilow would have jumped at the chance to inadvertently draw more attention to Karen's work, but there was nothing there to work with. Certainly not in Barry's case. Really I can't quite picture anybody doing a duet with KC's solo stuff for that matter... I guess besides the duet that's already on there... I mean it's technically possible, but I just can't hear it right now, nor do I think it would add that much to it.
I don't want to sound like I'm trashing Karen's solo album. I'm not. I'd love for anybody to enjoy Karen's solo work! There's some great, treasured moments there. I think the moment it was shelved says something about it. Not everything about it, but there was some reason to do such a thing. In theory if it was really, really good and irresistible then we wouldn't be having this problem. It's no offence to anyone who worked on it. It's how it is.
I'm glad Barry left it alone.
For the most part I hope everybody leaves it alone. Let's visit it as it is. Sure celebrate it, but with all this said we don't really need any more re-mixes or duets of Karen's solo work.
Unless the day comes where we get a remastered version with a few of the outtakes (I'd leave out "midnight" for sure because of the audible error in Karen's reading)...I could stand a release like that... but as far as adding anything to it... at a certain point the best thing you can do is leave it alone...
Past is in the past... leave it be... I don't mind a little shout out here and there during an interview or a little something, but it can be taken too far...
Nicko
Well-Known Member
What I don't understand is Barry said he couldn't use the Carpenters songs, if Richard was interested in this project couldn't he have provided Karen's isolated lead vocals for Barry to harmonise and add arrangement to, I mean this is what Richard does with a lot of the songs doesn't he?
WYBIMLA
Well-Known Member
I think if Barry had fought to do a Carpenters song that would have been a stretch for what the album is about.
It's a duets album with solo artists from the look of it.
Karen doesn't fall into that category unless it's "Karen Carpenter (solo album)".
To insert yourself into a band or duo gets a bit crowded especially in this way.
He may have gotten away with it, but that's not the premise of the project.
And yes Richard does it, and did long after '83, but I give Richard a pass for it because of their musical and personal history.
I don't think he had anyone stand in on the leads besides himself for re-records (ex, Do you hear what I hear)... obviously he's brought in backing vocalists for the rest... if there were posthumous duets it was from it's time (Perry, Ella).
Had Barry appeared in one of their TV specials or something maybe things would be different... and in that case he would have been on "As time goes by". Lol only as younger Barry, not older Barry.
I guess that's the only way that would have been made possible.
Richard seems to be very protective of the carpenters material and legacy. He probably he wouldn't want to hear duets with Karen's leads.
If it's done well maybe, but I don't think RC is interested at all right now.
Idk if it would truly be that great of a thing.
If someone's doing a cover of their version of songs that's probably more acceptable and permitted.
Also, somewhat of a cautionary tale.
It's a duets album with solo artists from the look of it.
Karen doesn't fall into that category unless it's "Karen Carpenter (solo album)".
To insert yourself into a band or duo gets a bit crowded especially in this way.
He may have gotten away with it, but that's not the premise of the project.
And yes Richard does it, and did long after '83, but I give Richard a pass for it because of their musical and personal history.
I don't think he had anyone stand in on the leads besides himself for re-records (ex, Do you hear what I hear)... obviously he's brought in backing vocalists for the rest... if there were posthumous duets it was from it's time (Perry, Ella).
Had Barry appeared in one of their TV specials or something maybe things would be different... and in that case he would have been on "As time goes by". Lol only as younger Barry, not older Barry.
I guess that's the only way that would have been made possible.
Richard seems to be very protective of the carpenters material and legacy. He probably he wouldn't want to hear duets with Karen's leads.
If it's done well maybe, but I don't think RC is interested at all right now.
Idk if it would truly be that great of a thing.
If someone's doing a cover of their version of songs that's probably more acceptable and permitted.
Also, somewhat of a cautionary tale.
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GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Barry Manilow's Duets gives one pause to thoughts of songs such as:
You're Just In Love (Karen and John Davidson)
Comin' Through The Rye (Karen and John Denver)
Dance In The Old-Fashioned Way (Karen and John Davidson).
This from Billboard Magazine,August 29,1998, page 93:
"A&R Director Patrick Milligan, speaking of
Bacharach Rhino Box Set....'licensing nightmare'...
Richard Carpenter didn't want to 'give up'
Close To You...I finally convinced him.."
(It will be interesting to see if Carol Burnett is able to include Carpenters on her upcoming DVD collection from Time-Life.
If Carol Burnett is unable (or unwilling) to secure licensing (for whatever the reason), then no one could!).
You're Just In Love (Karen and John Davidson)
Comin' Through The Rye (Karen and John Denver)
Dance In The Old-Fashioned Way (Karen and John Davidson).
This from Billboard Magazine,August 29,1998, page 93:
"A&R Director Patrick Milligan, speaking of
Bacharach Rhino Box Set....'licensing nightmare'...
Richard Carpenter didn't want to 'give up'
Close To You...I finally convinced him.."
(It will be interesting to see if Carol Burnett is able to include Carpenters on her upcoming DVD collection from Time-Life.
If Carol Burnett is unable (or unwilling) to secure licensing (for whatever the reason), then no one could!).
Actorman
Well-Known Member
I posted about this a week or two back on a different threat. The contents of the new Carol Burnett Show DVD box set was posted to the Time-Life website. It does not contain any Carpenters appearances. The reason why is anyone's guess. It could be licensing or it could be some other factor all together.
motownboy
Well-Known Member
I am glad that Barry did not create a duet with Karen. Unfortunately, his voice is mostly gone. I have heard Barry's "duets" album and a lot of it is not too pretty. The worst duet on Barry's album is the one with Dusty Springfield - "The Look of Love." This is one of the few times I would use this expression "why tamper with perfection?"
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying I agree or disagree because I don't really follow Barry's work but the thought hit me that I wonder if Karen fans would say the same thing had she lived and she was recording at the age of 72?
I hate to think of the day when Olivia stops recording, it will be a sad day for this kid.
Richard will not license out any Carpenters recordings to other artists/record labels-he wants to keep Carpenters recordings on Carpenters albums. This is why you will never see a Carpenters recording on a multi-artist compilation(Time/Life,etc).
There were a couple of rare instances where Richard did agree to license to another artist(Burt Bacharach Boxed set,etc).
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
I don't suppose there is another authentic one of these floating around for sale is there? Anyone know if one on the market?I also have the 35th Anniv Universal Limited Edition signed by Richard Carpenter framed artwork, you may not be able to see but I have #009 of #100. Again it's on the floor to avoid flash return but it's still showing some.
VERY well said! And I like the Bettis reference as well - and he's absolutely right! If A&M thought they had a hit, at the end of the day, it's about the MONEY - not what Richard thinks, or Phil thinks, or really even what Karen thought. The label would have certainly pushed for its release if there were a bundle of hits. That has been my point all along, but seems like every time the subject arises, it becomes a "taking of sides" so to speak.
Anyway, kudos on the post
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Puts everything into perspective, doesn't it ?
Always about..."the Money"....
Too bad, really, as I am much more interested in Richard and Karen's
creative and artistic oeuvre.
Gee, how much money needs to be made off of an album?
After all, even Offering got a re-issue and even an update (the UK 1978/9 Vinyl),
thus, it certainly (eventually) "made money".
Coleman says: Made In America was "very profitable". (page 289).
Thus, I ask at what point is the monetary line drawn--if that be the primary focus ?
Always about..."the Money"....
Too bad, really, as I am much more interested in Richard and Karen's
creative and artistic oeuvre.
Gee, how much money needs to be made off of an album?
After all, even Offering got a re-issue and even an update (the UK 1978/9 Vinyl),
thus, it certainly (eventually) "made money".
Coleman says: Made In America was "very profitable". (page 289).
Thus, I ask at what point is the monetary line drawn--if that be the primary focus ?
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