Did the Carpenters wholesome image damage their credibility?
- Thread starter FineArts03
- Start date
-
- Tags
- carpenters
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Yeah there are tons of article and lots of evidence to support that theory. I think it’s one of the things that irked Richard and Karen the most during their career.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Jorge
Well-Known Member
I understand that artists have a Manager, but who was in charge of PR? I remember reading about a Bloch making press comments after Karen's passing. What would have been his job? Who is in charge of an artist image? I may be wrong but I think Harold and Agnes had some saying on the early years, and that may have cemented some of the turbulent relation with critics/image and their career.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
The image they had as clean-cut, decent, wholesome young American kids who had musical talent beyond measure and totally "off the charts" was treasured by their millions of fans around the world. They were adored and idolized and these countless fans wouldn't have wanted them any other way. The kind of people they were went a long way in explaining the beautiful and exciting music they were able to create.
This wholesome image was exactly the one they should have had, and was the one that they themselves should have valued beyond any doubt - and which they should have been completely happy about, and cultivated, and flaunted for their fan's delight - and thrown back in the face of their worst critics, most of whom were a very small, but vocal clan of drugged out, ignorant, moronic, know-nothing writers, musicians and other slugs who wouldn't have recognized talent if it beat them over the head with a sledge hammer...
The only problem here was that Richard and Karen paid any attention to the criticism at all, and that they let it affect them as much as they did. They should have stood proud of who they were and what they were, told the tasteless and spiteful critics to go "pound sand", and reveled in the warm glow of the love of their adoring fans.
And this is pretty much what they did do in the long run, without much help from their record company - and in spite of their unintentional efforts to sabatoge themselves.
This wholesome image was exactly the one they should have had, and was the one that they themselves should have valued beyond any doubt - and which they should have been completely happy about, and cultivated, and flaunted for their fan's delight - and thrown back in the face of their worst critics, most of whom were a very small, but vocal clan of drugged out, ignorant, moronic, know-nothing writers, musicians and other slugs who wouldn't have recognized talent if it beat them over the head with a sledge hammer...
The only problem here was that Richard and Karen paid any attention to the criticism at all, and that they let it affect them as much as they did. They should have stood proud of who they were and what they were, told the tasteless and spiteful critics to go "pound sand", and reveled in the warm glow of the love of their adoring fans.
And this is pretty much what they did do in the long run, without much help from their record company - and in spite of their unintentional efforts to sabatoge themselves.
Last edited:
Arthur Talarico
Member
Well, let's be clear—a majority of the critics weren't even in it for the right reasons, often times looking to "one-up" the other. Music reviewers, mostly young and nervous, saw cynicism as important, much of art as boring, and snideness as meaningful and cool. It didn't help that they were paid poorly (excerpt from Carpenters: The Musical Legacy). The Carps weren't the only ones dealing with this, in all fairness. I was listening to a recent interview with Steve Perry yesterday and Journey dealt with the same crap.
A great example: Barry Cain opens his review of the duo’s 1977 Passage album: Karen Carpenter: the dummy in the shop window. Devoid of emotion, each song a rerun of the last. Flat monotones whether she’s singing about pain or love, depression or joy.
Not to say that Passage was their best by any stretch, but you can't say it wasn't done superbly—love it or hate it. Some of those reviewers wouldn't know great music (forget about its genre) if it bit 'em in the ass.
Arthur Talarico
Member
Perfect placement, Chris! Unfortunately, art critics, especially music critics, are never satisfied with anything. This doesn't just happen to American artists, but from all parts of the world. I don't know if this is relevant, but I'll give an example that happened in my country, Brazil. A duo called Dom & Ravel presented a song called "Obrigado ao Homem do Campo" on a television program, for a panel of critics. This song has very beautiful lyrics and was written in gratitude to the field workers who produce to feed the country's big cities. One of the girls at the table said that, unfortunately, the country man is too naive to be pleased by that music. Therefore, critics are often not only opposed to artists and their songs, but they also allow themselves to be led by their opinion to the point of also criticizing the public that consumes certain art.
Karen and Richard didn't like their image because it didn't make them seem "cool," it's as simple as that. She was 20 when they got huge, and he was what, 22? Everyone that age wants to look cool to their peers. It's the most important thing in a young person's life, whether they'll admit it or not. In K&R's case, in most pictures (and onstage) they looked like they were going to a senior prom, especially Karen. So it's no wonder they hated their image. But, the marketing people didn't know how to handle a brother/sister act because there aren't that many of them.
If they'd have just put Karen in some dresses that looked a little less formal it would have gone a long way to improving their image.
The album covers have long been discussed, but some of the album titles didn't help either. I got to thinking about A Song For You. Richard has said he doesn't like that cover because it looks like a Valentine's card. (True.) They could have changed the artwork and gotten rid of the heart on the front, but it also might have been good to come up with a different title. The title "A Song For You" even sounds like a Valentine's card, as does Close to You. By the time they got to Horizon and Passage, they'd come up with more interesting/less hackneyed titles. I wouldn't be surprised if Richard's dislike of the "Valentine's card" image they had cultivated had something to do with that.
Now that a lot of our great artists are passing away, it's interesting to read in the music press what's being written about them compared to what was said back in the day. Karen's voice is almost universally acclaimed now, as are Richard's arrangements.
If they'd have just put Karen in some dresses that looked a little less formal it would have gone a long way to improving their image.
The album covers have long been discussed, but some of the album titles didn't help either. I got to thinking about A Song For You. Richard has said he doesn't like that cover because it looks like a Valentine's card. (True.) They could have changed the artwork and gotten rid of the heart on the front, but it also might have been good to come up with a different title. The title "A Song For You" even sounds like a Valentine's card, as does Close to You. By the time they got to Horizon and Passage, they'd come up with more interesting/less hackneyed titles. I wouldn't be surprised if Richard's dislike of the "Valentine's card" image they had cultivated had something to do with that.
Now that a lot of our great artists are passing away, it's interesting to read in the music press what's being written about them compared to what was said back in the day. Karen's voice is almost universally acclaimed now, as are Richard's arrangements.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Wow! That's literally the first reference to a review that says anything bad about Karen's voice. Everything else I've ever seen is quite complimentary of her voice. In contrast, I've seen the softness of their music attacked often. The bad album covers have been a distant second, though they definitely are an issue.
Ed
i have always felt the logo was created because it was too difficult to photographically represent them; they were average people walking down the street...A&M couldn't run with that and the celebrity stylist was years away. the logo was instantly recognized even as their stage appearance might change.
7
7
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
The logo just made them seem old. The music and overall presentation did too - all of it older than their years. Only because of Karen's voice were they able to rise above it for a while and achieve success. Without that voice, no one gives the rest of it a second look.
Ed
Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
No question that Karen's voice eclipses the image thing from that era, however in the last few decades, Richard has invested great effort to preserve their image by keeping up with evolving technologies and making efforts to keep their recordings fresh and present.
]
We may not all like every single remix, but I see each one as a labor of love from Richard. And now 45 years after the original recording, there is a new Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas track, reimagined in a trending new technology.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
As much as I love Karen's voice this is so...inaccurate ... in so many ways that it boggles the mind. I think a moment's reflection will show you where you've gone astray - you are summarily dismissing or discounting all of the immense talent surrounding & supporting her - and the highly commendable achievement of that talent.
Her voice was incomparable, but it wasn't irreplaceable in all those great songs with all those excellent arrangements.
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Carpenters doesn't work at all without Karen. In the opinions of likely all of us here, Karen had the single greatest female voice in Pop music history. Richard has to be quite grateful that she also happened to be his sister. I'm not saying that Richard is without talent. One would have to quite literally be deaf to think that. I have always loved his vocal arrangements. However, his musical arrangements (really, orchestrations) were nearly always at odds with the Pop idiom. Little he did qualifies as Pop music and, IMHO, it's often too soft and without edge. That's just not my thing. I'm aware that many like that kind of thing. Totally fine. Enjoy.
In short, she was his ticket to Pop success. Without Karen, I'm certain he never works in Pop music. He scores movies or works in a different genre of music. Maybe both.
Ed
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
Yes, of course - as you must know by now I would agree with that wholeheartedly...
Yet, I can't help wondering how all of those great hits would have sounded (and sold) with a singer of the caliber of, say, Marilyn McCoo - not quite as good (and not quite as well) but still...yes, I know she wasn't available, but there were other really good singers out there.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Ed is right. And I’ll let Benny Andersson explain why. The exact same principle applies here.
“When you start talking about concepts like ‘the Abba sound’ you certainly have to mention the songs, the way we arranged them, Michael’s contribution and all that,” reflected Benny later. “But take away Frida and Agnetha and let two other girls sing their parts, and ‘the Abba sound’ goes out the window immediately. Their voices were simply the most important ingredient of our overall sound structure.”
(ABBA: Bright Lights, Dark Shadows, 2014).
‘Michael’ is Michael B. Tretow, their long-time sound engineer who came up with a lot of the studio techniques (like adjusting the speed of the tape during overdubs) that made them sound so amazing on record.
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
@newvillefan All I can do in response is to quote myself (one of my favorite things to do
) - no, the songs wouldn't have been as unique and special and beautiful, but with a quality singer inserted in place of Karen they still would have been pretty damn good (maybe even "hits")...
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
No one is on Karen's level. No one in the past or present phrases the way she did. Karen had a unique gift and she was 1 of 1. Marilyn is miles away from Karen in every department IMHO. I know I'm being repetitive but I just don't think Carpenters' works at all without Karen. He had the only singer that could get his stuff over. Once Karen passed away, Richard's career as an artist ended. Heck, his career as a producer basically did too. Nothing he produced did anything. That tells us all we need to know.
Honestly, I wonder the reverse. If Karen had worked with a player/producer/arranger with some real edge and Pop sensibility, her image would likely have been markedly better and her career would likely have been more interesting.
Ed
I do think Richard could have made the same hits with a different singer, if Karen had never existed.
It's impossible to know, of course. But he had a knack for finding songs to fit the sound that HE created. In other words, he had the talent to exploit their gifts, and she didn't. Karen had the gift of the amazing voice, but Richard had the production, arrangement and A&R talent.
Karen, though, as wonderful as her voice was, still needed the right songs and arrangements backing her. Remember, she mainly thought of herself as a drummer! Even SHE didn't know what a great singer she was!
I'm not trying to minimize Karen's contribution or her talent. I'm just pointing out where their strengths were. They were truly a team.
True, but there are several contributing factors to that situation. Mainly a function of him not wanting to try to duplicate their sound, combined with the structure of their act, and where their career was at that point. There are a lot of "if's" to consider, but if Karen had not been his sister, but had just been a "band member," and if they'd had a four- or five-piece band, he may have tried to go on with a new voice... especially if the hits were still comin'. Lots of examples of that in the pop world.
It's impossible to know, of course. But he had a knack for finding songs to fit the sound that HE created. In other words, he had the talent to exploit their gifts, and she didn't. Karen had the gift of the amazing voice, but Richard had the production, arrangement and A&R talent.
Karen, though, as wonderful as her voice was, still needed the right songs and arrangements backing her. Remember, she mainly thought of herself as a drummer! Even SHE didn't know what a great singer she was!
I'm not trying to minimize Karen's contribution or her talent. I'm just pointing out where their strengths were. They were truly a team.
True, but there are several contributing factors to that situation. Mainly a function of him not wanting to try to duplicate their sound, combined with the structure of their act, and where their career was at that point. There are a lot of "if's" to consider, but if Karen had not been his sister, but had just been a "band member," and if they'd had a four- or five-piece band, he may have tried to go on with a new voice... especially if the hits were still comin'. Lots of examples of that in the pop world.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Karen was a once in a lifetime talent.
Arthur Talarico
Member
I think there are a lot of factors why Richard didn't do much side work after Karen's death. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a commercial voice to be a solo singer, and I think he himself knows this factor. Another factor, in my opinion, would be respect and devotion to Karen's memory. I don't think it would occur to him to work with another singer, because it would give the impression that she was being replaced. Although this isn't true, I'm sure many people would think that way.
Nemily
"I'm goin' way down south to Baton Rouge, tonight"
Possibly yes, but what would that path have looked like.
How far would they have made it as the Richard Carpenter Trio and they hire a singer. Isn't that kind of what Spectrum was? If Richard and Karen do backup vocals to another lead they never get into overdubbing then right? I thought the whole reason they got into overdubbing was because the band thing wasn’t working, so they did their own backups.
As Richard Carpenter Trio plus a singer, do they make demo tapes in Joe Osborn’s garage and do they get past the gates at the A&M lots? Does that singers voice grab Herb’s attention? Herb doesn’t even like that genre of music, but he made an exception to go with his instincts when he heard Karen’s voice on those demos and that is what got them signed.
Richard’s talents serve him well as an arranger and musician and it is likely that he does hook up with John Bettis on his own and pen some hits, but Herb Alpert was the catalyst that shot Carpenters as we know them, into the stratosphere, and that is what opened the door for Richard and Karen to have 24 hour access to the A&M Studios and master their sound. They were studio animals, as Richard liked to say, first and foremost. That contract signing would not have happened without Karen’s voice.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
His voice really doesn’t have anything to do with it. I think everyone knows he was never going to set the world on fire as a solo vocalist after her death. His biggest mistake was his total intransigence: he stuck to the formula that didn’t work without Karen, working with Z-list artists (outside of Dionne and Dusty) instead of branching out and writing movie scores (GMA Interview 1981 anyone? Karen told him in that interview).
Scott Grimes…Veronique Beliveau…Claire De La Fuente. What on earth was he thinking? He should have been collaborating with John Bettis on songs for the likes of Madonna. He could have had a superb career post-Carpenters but squandered it, in my honest and humble opinion.
Last edited:
JohnFB
She was born to belong to the lines of a song...
If Marilyn wasn't on Karen's level she was a very close 2nd - and not miles away, but merely feet - she had an incredibly beautiful voice, like Karen's, but a different tonality - and I think she just might have edged out Karen in the power department - a lovely, personable woman with a fantastic voice - I'm afraid you sell her far too short...
You mean someone like, say, Billy Joel? Ha! The possibilities are mind-blowing!
Yes, Karen was a once-in-a-lifetime singer, and the songs she recorded were as good as they were going to get - no one else could have touched her brilliant and gorgeous interpretations. And yet...
The songs were mostly of such a high quality in themselves, and the arrangements - while sometimes a little overdone - were generally very creative and appropriate for the songs in question, that another singer of exceptional talent and ability could have nailed them pretty solidly. Linda Ronstadt? No, not really. Agnetha? Very possible. Marilyn McCoo? Absolutely.
Similar discussions
