Did the Carpenters wholesome image damage their credibility?

[Arthur Talarico]

Sua voz realmente não tem nada a ver com isso. Acho que todo mundo sabe que ele nunca iria incendiar o mundo como vocalista solo após a morte dela. Seu maior erro foi sua intransigência total: ele seguiu a fórmula que não funcionava sem Karen, trabalhando com artistas da lista Z (fora Dionne e Dusty) em vez de diversificar e escrever trilhas sonoras de filmes (Entrevista GMA 1981, alguém? Karen disse ele naquela entrevista).

Scott Grimes…Veronique Beliveau…Claire De La Fuente. O que diabos ele estava pensando? Ele deveria ter colaborado com John Bettis em músicas como Madonna. Ele poderia ter tido uma carreira excelente pós-Carpinteiros, mas a desperdiçou, na minha opinião honesta e humilde.

In fact. Richard didn't think about following other directions or styles other than the Carpenters. Sometimes I wonder if Karen's death didn't shake him to the point of losing his taste for working as a musician and arranger. I think he was lost to the point of not knowing what to do after the duo ended. After all, it was almost 20 years with Karen.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Richard’s talents serve him well as an arranger and musician and it is likely that he does hook up with John Bettis on his own and pen some hits, but Herb Alpert was the catalyst that shot Carpenters as we know them, into the stratosphere, and that is what opened the door for Richard and Karen to have 24 hour access to the A&M Studios and master their sound. They were studio animals, as Richard liked to say, first and foremost. That contract signing would not have happened without Karen’s voice.

See? I don’t think that happens. Richard wrote songs and Karen’s voice made them hits. John’s catalog is deep but Richard’s isn’t. We totally agree here. Herb was taken with Karen’s voice. Joe Osborn was too. He signed her to Magic Lamp as an artist, not Richard. Early in their careers and even longer for casuals, Richard was only thought of as the piano player. Further, Richard’s career successes ended when she died.

We don’t know definitively if Karen survives career-wise without Richard but we do know he couldn’t without her. He tried and wasn’t successful. His talents only worked at the service of one artist: Karen Carpenter.

The issue was simple. Richard’s music was soft and square. It was a huge part of their image problem. I really wish he’d collaborated with other producers rather than doing it all himself. Another producer could have added some much-needed edge.

Ed

 

[kprather]

One other singer I could hear singing Richard's arrangements in an alternate universe is Helen Reddy. She would fit the timeline decently well too.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

One limitation Richard had was his production style.

If you listen to other records besides his own, Herb Alpert was a very versatile producer. You can listen to a Lani Hall record and it sounds NOTHING like a Herb Alpert record, even though Herb is the producer and sometimes even his own band would play on her albums.

Conversely, every Richard Carpenter production sounds like a Richard Carpenter production, I suppose mostly because he is a producer/arranger. Another producer who comes to mind is Todd Rundgren -- you can immediately tell when he's a producer on a record. Same with Phil Spector.

So if Richard had done a post-Karen album with some other female singer, everyone would have griped that it was a Carpenters record without Karen Carpenter. He probably knew this and decided to cut his losses and just concentrate on preserving their legacy, while leaving the door open to possibly getting lucky with other unknown singers like Scott Grimes. All it would have taken is one hit with one of those people and it would have been off to the races again. Maybe that's why he used a variety of singers on his Time album -- he didn't want to look like he was trying to recreate the Carpenters sound over again.

 

[ars nova]

See? I don’t think that happens. Richard wrote songs and Karen’s voice made them hits. John’s catalog is deep but Richard’s isn’t. We totally agree here. Herb was taken with Karen’s voice. Joe Osborn was too. He signed her to Magic Lamp as an artist, not Richard. Early in their careers and even longer for casuals, Richard was only thought of as the piano player. Further, Richard’s career successes ended when she died.

We don’t know definitively if Karen survives career-wise without Richard but we do know he couldn’t without her. He tried and wasn’t successful. His talents only worked at the service of one artist: Karen Carpenter.

The issue was simple. Richard’s music was soft and square. It was a huge part of their image problem. I really wish he’d collaborated with other producers rather than doing it all himself. Another producer could have added some much-needed edge.

Ed

See? I don’t think that happens. Richard wrote songs and Karen’s voice made them hits. John’s catalog is deep but Richard’s isn’t. We totally agree here. Herb was taken with Karen’s voice. Joe Osborn was too. He signed her to Magic Lamp as an artist, not Richard. Early in their careers and even longer for casuals, Richard was only thought of as the piano player. Further, Richard’s career successes ended when she died.

We don’t know definitively if Karen survives career-wise without Richard but we do know he couldn’t without her. He tried and wasn’t successful. His talents only worked at the service of one artist: Karen Carpenter.

The issue was simple. Richard’s music was soft and square. It was a huge part of their image problem. I really wish he’d collaborated with other producers rather than doing it all himself. Another producer could

Carpenters doesn't work at all without Karen. In the opinions of likely all of us here, Karen had the single greatest female voice in Pop music history. Richard has to be quite grateful that she also happened to be his sister. I'm not saying that Richard is without talent. One would have to quite literally be deaf to think that. I have always loved his vocal arrangements. However, his musical arrangements (really, orchestrations) were nearly always at odds with the Pop idiom. Little he did qualifies as Pop music and, IMHO, it's often too soft and without edge. That's just not my thing. I'm aware that many like that kind of thing. Totally fine. Enjoy.

In short, she was his ticket to Pop success. Without Karen, I'm certain he never works in Pop music. He scores movies or works in a different genre of music. Maybe both.

Ed

the only "karen" we really know is the "karen" richard crafted. the solo tracks, for the most part, are unfocused, as in my opinion the passage album.

 

[David A]

[SNIP] instead of branching out and writing movie scores (GMA Interview 1981 anyone? Karen told him in that interview).[/SNIP]

My GF was listening to the RPO album in my car and commented how the transitional orchestral pieces often "sounded like Disney songs". She is a huge Disney fan (kinda like Karen was) and knows her Disney like many of those here know the Carpenters. Richard absolutely could have written successful movie scores, had he the desire to do so, IMO.

Also, I'm in the camp here that says Carpenters don't work without Karen. The fact that they were siblings alone adds to the fact that their harmonies were unlikely to be duplicated by a different female singer, and yes, Karen is literally alone in her vocal sound. I have never heard another voice that sounds even close to the same when you factor in all of the subtleties of her singing.

3rd edit I am NOT underappreciating Richard's contribution - he was brilliant at framing that voice.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

the only "karen" we really know is the "karen" richard crafted. the solo tracks, for the most part, are unfocused, as in my opinion the passage album.

Richard in no way crafted Karen's voice. That was all her. He chose keys for the tunes she sang but that's as far as the "crafting" goes with regard to her voice.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

My GF was listening to the RPO album in my car and commented how the transitional orchestral pieces often "sounded like Disney songs". She is a huge Disney fan (kinda like Karen was) and knows her Disney like many of those here know the Carpenters. Richard absolutely could have written successful movie scores, had he the desire to do so, IMO.

Very true that, I’ve never thought of the Disney-esque element before but he could easily have scored some of their films.

 

[JohnFB]

My GF was listening to the RPO album in my car and commented how the transitional orchestral pieces often "sounded like Disney songs"...

I know this is off topic slightly & more properly belongs in the RPO Album thread, but I feel compelled to say right here that I've been listening to the RPO Album myself a lot lately and have noticed how well composed those transitional pieces (interludes) are. And how well they flow into the linked song - this is true for the ones before YESTERDAY ONCE MORE and WE'VE ONLY JUST BEGUN...although there's no real interlude between MERRY CHRISTMAS, DARLING and BABY. IT'S YOU there is a continuous flow from the first to the second which is pleasant...the interlude before I JUST FALL IN LOVE AGAIN is lovely, but it stops and then IJFILA begins - there should have been a continuation or non-stop transition there - it would have been so easy to do and would have been really special...

That's all - back to the thread at hand...

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Richard in no way crafted Karen's voice. That was all her. He chose keys for the tunes she sang but that's as far as the "crafting" goes with regard to her voice.

You're underestimating just how much control a good producer/arranger/engineer has. The production can have a HUGE impact on the way a singer sounds, as can things like the choice of microphones used, the background instrumentation, etc.

If you want a particularly jarring example, listen to the way Donna Summer sounded when she was produced by Giorgio Moroder vs. just about anyone else. Or listen to the the Hall and Oates album "War Babies" (produced by Todd Rundgren) compared with any of their other albums. The difference is very pronounced.

Plus, none of us has any knowledge of what kind of suggestions or directions Karen was given in the studio as to how to perform a piece. John Bettis (in the Download interview) said that Richard had a knack for being able to hear the finished record in his head before it was even recorded.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

You're underestimating just how much control a good producer/arranger/engineer has. The production can have a HUGE impact on the way a singer sounds, as can things like the choice of microphones used, the background instrumentation, etc.

If you want a particularly jarring example, listen to the way Donna Summer sounded when she was produced by Giorgio Moroder vs. just about anyone else. Or listen to the the Hall and Oates album "War Babies" (produced by Todd Rundgren) compared with any of their other albums. The difference is very pronounced.

Plus, none of us has any knowledge of what kind of suggestions or directions Karen was given in the studio as to how to perform a piece. John Bettis (in the Download interview) said that Richard had a knack for being able to hear the finished record in his head before it was even recorded.

Thing is that Karen still sounds exactly like Karen with Phil behind the board. He may have had her singing a bit too high at times but she always sounded like her. I can't speak to the others but we know what Karen sounds like when produced by someone else...and she sounds like Karen.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

Richard in no way crafted Karen's voice. That was all her. He chose keys for the tunes she sang but that's as far as the "crafting" goes with regard to her voice.

Ed

You're underestimating just how much control a good producer/arranger/engineer has. The production can have a HUGE impact on the way a singer sounds, as can things like the choice of microphones used, the background instrumentation, etc.

...

Well, both statements above seem to be correct - apparently it depends on which of Karen's voices one is talking about...

There was her real, natural, "off-record" voice and there was her sometimes unreal, unnatural "on-record" voice...

The first voice was what one would have heard for instance listening to her sing while rehersing a song in the studio or at home or in a live concert performance - and one heard it often "on-record" during all or parts of their recorded songs...

The second voice was everything the first voice was, but it was also "technically enhanced" for "on-record" via artificial devices such as reverb, echoing, and double-tracking (sorry, but given the context, it had to be mentioned), resulting in a vocal sound that was not her real, natural voice at all, but something else...

Richard had very little to do (from all we know) with the development or refinement or improvement of the first (natural) voice, except finding good songs that suited that voice, putting them in "her keys", helping her rehearse them "off-record", and maybe occasionally offering some advice on phrasing or how to "style" her singing. From several sources we do know that Frank Pooler, their college choir director, had a little something to do with the development of her natural voice, working with her awhile to extend and improve her upper register...

Richard had everything to do with that second, "on record" voice on those instances or during those parts when the final recording did not exhibit her first voice by itself. Here he got (apparently) full, willing cooperation from Karen (we don't know of any occasion when she publicly protested these recording tecniques) - and he received full approval from (and maybe insistence by) the powers at A&M...

So, two Karen voices: one "off-record" and one "on-record" - the first often appearing as the on- record voice too but the second never showing up off-record (unless they did some "enhancements" to it during live concerts).

It is, of course, the great regret of Karen-Purists that that "off-record" voice wasn't the exclusive "on-record" voice too...

 

[Nemily]

Thank you, John. I was thinking about this last night but too tired to ask and voila you answered my questions.

Having all the many bells and whistles at his disposal, I’m sure Richard was in his glory getting the sound he wanted. I’m also sure that all the embellishments in the world are for naught without having at core a solid singer of Karen’s caliber (a quality unsurpassed).

I think we can all agree that together they were better.

 

[JohnFB]

... I’m also sure that all the embellishments in the world are for naught without having at core a solid singer of Karen’s caliber (a quality unsurpassed).
...

Two thoughts: embellishments are the only "salvation" of many second-rate singers; and even singers of Karen's caliber ( there's only one) can't fully overcome the negative effects of too many and/or the wrong kind of embellishments...

 

[Nemily]

Not everyone loves all of the remixes. I happen to love a good many of them. When I speak of Richard’s true genius, go back a little further to the original analog quality. His efforts hit the mark and beyond on these wonderful recordings.