I've decided to give Richard a break.

[Harry]

A very sick friend comes out of the hospital. You see that friend for the first time. They've improved in their appearance. You compliment them on "looking terrific," since the last time you saw them, they looked like death warmed over. It doesn't mean that they are now well enough to run a marathon. You're giving them positive reinforcement.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Harry

 

[song4u]

I think that while giving the positive encouragement mentioned in above posts, people were still rightly concerned - Richard in particular - thus the parking lot confrontation.

All that talk about touring and the future was probably meant to be encouragement, like Harry said. And as I've brought up before, Karen was an adult, making her own decisions. If those close to her had their way, she would still have been in treatment.

 

[Harry]

And no-one would know for sure of an impending date of death. We tend to be optimistic and look forward to a brighter future.

Harry

 

[GaryAlan]

I do agree, Harry.
Positive reinforcement, especially from Herb Alpert, would have helped Karen psychologically, at that time.
However, I still maintain that there was a disconnect between Karen's true physical state--from, at the least, her
self-imposed treatment deadline--until the last time her friends, family, and business associates saw her.
Absolutely no way--as Richard Carpenter rightly surmised---
that Karen was "cured" of her affliction/disease , from her return from New York.
What I maintain, to this day, is that nothing adds up.
1).If my sister had gotten up from a table in a restaurant, in a frozen state of panic, then,
excused herself to the bathroom for who-knows-how-long?--only to return with "I am OK now"...
Bells would be Blasting! (Richard, Karen, Dennis Heath at Restaurant in January 1983--Coleman).
2).If a friend of mine was complaining about "my heart pounding out of my chest"....Bells would go off! (ibid.)
3).The house-maid/cleaner finds Karen on the floor of her condo...Bells,again!
4).Spots before her eyes, resting all the time. Weakness. More Bells.
My Lord, an anorexic since 1975 (at least), what was everyone thinking?
It'll work itself out? (No one calls an ambulance, anymore?).
And, of course, we will never know if Karen, herself, had thought she was "okay." (Well, how could she think she was alright ?).

Back in 1983, of course, I had that "terribly shocked, can not believe this happened " mentality.
But, now, after reading everything extant that I can get my hands on regarding Karen's life, that shock
has turned to much more one of supreme sadness.
This was a catastrophic failure on so many levels.



Recalling the Challenger Space Shuttle Disaster: They kept sending her up. Each time, another "problem" would show up.
As long as nothing catastrophic occurred, it would be certified to 'fly' again.
The engineers knew that they were at odds with the managers. Both using a different
set of criteria to declare the shuttle 'ready to take-off' again. (Engineers against flight.)
Feynman: "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."


In Karen Carpenters' case: Reality did take precedence over Public Relations.
Again, Nature could not be fooled.

 

[Harry]

It's ironic that this conversation is taking place in the "I've decided to give Richard a break" thread. And as usual, it has devolved into an "if only THIS could have happened" thread with attempts to indict all those around Karen. But she was an adult, and no-one wanted to overstep her own authority over her own health. That's a sad part of the "disease" - and back then very few even knew of such a condition.

Yes, the signs were there, and those around her kept telling her to get help. She wouldn't listen. I just hate this blame game when it was in fact, dear Karen, who with her own actions and inactions, caused the tragedy that was about to occur.

Harry

 

[mr J.]

I was trying to find the thread when we all talked about Karen's last musical performance at the Buckley School in Dec 1982. Some of the threads are old and no longer can post but I found this recent one so I will post to this one.

Today I was googling and I came across this magazine called R&R Radio and Records The Industry's Weekly Newspaper printed Dec 12, 1986, I will post the pdf link when it loads (which took almost 2 minutes for me) you will need to scroll to page 52 titled Datebook, about in the middle of that page right above the photos in the middle you will see a heading that is titled Wednesday Dec 17 Here it discuss what happen on that day Dec 17 and if you look at the year 1982 it says this:
1982: The Who play their last show in Toronto. On the same day. Karen Carpenter's last performance is singing Christmas carols at the private schol her godchildren atend. Her friends try to talk her out of it because of her health but she persists.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-RandR/1980s/1986/RR-1986-12-12.pdf
credit to: American Radio History Archives
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/RandR-Magazine-Page-Range-Guide.htm


So this is new information to me and I am really surprised that something like that event made news since little has been spoke of this event. So now it is confirmed this event was held on Wednesday Dec 17, 1982 and Karen's friends tried to talk her out of going? first I've heard of that.

Karen's last performance made the news the day it happened. When someone as famous as KC makes an appearance at a particular event-it becomes instant news.

 

[mr J.]

It's ironic that this conversation is taking place in the "I've decided to give Richard a break" thread. And as usual, it has devolved into an "if only THIS could have happened" thread with attempts to indict all those around Karen. But she was an adult, and no-one wanted to overstep her own authority over her own health. That's a sad part of the "disease" - and back then very few even knew of such a condition.

Yes, the signs were there, and those around her kept telling her to get help. She wouldn't listen. I just hate this blame game when it was in fact, dear Karen, who with her own actions and inactions, caused the tragedy that was about to occur.

Harry

Well said,Harry.

I've also noticed that many threads devolve into the "if only it happened this way" scenario.

This whole issue about whether Karen looked good in the weeks before her death is an exercise in futility.For the record,she did look substantially better in 1983-but too much focus is being placed on her anorexia years,as usual. We all know the unfortunate details about this period in her life and we've all seen the photos. It serves no purpose to keep focusing on this negative aspect of Karen's life.

 

[GaryAlan]

Harry, I do apologize for (mis-) placing my comments pertaining to the original news article I had linked to.
But, I do hereby clarify that I am in no way am pointing my finger, or placing blame, on anyone for the events which transpired.
My comments are not intend to speculate upon the ... " if only this could have happened.".
Rather, my point is:
"How could anyone ever have expected a different outcome?"

 

[GaryAlan]

I noticed when I moved my cursor over the entitled Forum " A Song For You", it states:
"a forum dedicated to Carpenters and their music".
I mis-read the motives, there.
I rather thought that discussing "Carpenters, and their music", included the good with the bad.
Don't misunderstand me, I love Richard and Karen, and all aspects of the music they created,
but sugar-coating everything paints an image not unlike that which was promulgated by the record
company. I rather believed that Richard Carpenter (and, dear Karen) wanted to be perceived as human beings.
They spent quite a bit of their later career trying to undo that image, unless I am mistaken.

 

[Dave]

Sounds like we need to decide to give Karen a break, too...



-- Dave

 

[MissK]

Karen's last performance made the news the day it happened. When someone as famous as KC makes an appearance at a particular event-it becomes instant news.

It made the news? What news? Please provide a link.

 

[newvillefan]

I noticed when I moved my cursor over the entitled Forum " A Song For You", it states:
"a forum dedicated to Carpenters and their music".
I mis-read the motives, there.
I rather thought that discussing "Carpenters, and their music", included the good with the bad.
Don't misunderstand me, I love Richard and Karen, and all aspects of the music they created,
but sugar-coating everything paints an image not unlike that which was promulgated by the record
company. I rather believed that Richard Carpenter (and, dear Karen) wanted to be perceived as human beings.
They spent quite a bit of their later career trying to undo that image, unless I am mistaken.

Well said GaryAlan!

 

[Harry]

To be sure, Gary, I wasn't pointing any fingers strictly at you. It's been a common problem around here since the place's inception. We tried being hard-nosed about only focusing on Carpenters music, and that just drove people away. So we've loosened up a bit and have allowed reasonable discussion on the personal topics. A&M Corner Forum's thrust has always been about the music, and we've tried to steer topics in that direction, but it's just so tempting for many to discuss the tragic events because they've left an open wound. I understand - I really do.

Personally, for me, your humble moderator, it's been a sore spot to have so many discussions devolve into the blame game about Karen's health and the shelving of the solo album. They gave us such great music over the years and it's a shame that a lot of the discussions just seem to head right for the unfortunate events of 1979-1983.

Gary, to be sure, we really do appreciate all of the hard work you've done in finding things on the Internet and elsewhere to stir up discussion. It's been remarkable and I hope it continues despite my perceived "grouchiness" on the nature of some of the discussions. As long as it's all kept civil and we act like responsible adults, there's no reason not to have these discussions. But maybe just once in awhile folks, talk about the music, and leave the conspiracy theories to other subjects?

...but sugar-coating everything paints an image not unlike that which was promulgated by the record
company. I rather believed that Richard Carpenter (and, dear Karen) wanted to be perceived as human beings.
They spent quite a bit of their later career trying to undo that image, unless I am mistaken.

I'm not suggesting the sugar-coating of anything - just try to put yourself in the places and times that are being discussed. Remember that no-one, NO-ONE, EVER expected Karen to die at such a young age. EVERYONE ALWAYS thought there was a bright future for both the siblings and their record company and wanted to head in that direction.

Harry

 

[newvillefan]

We tried being hard-nosed about only focusing on Carpenters music, and that just drove people away. So we've loosened up a bit and have allowed reasonable discussion on the personal topics. A&M Corner Forum's thrust has always been about the music, and we've tried to steer topics in that direction, but it's just so tempting for many to discuss the tragic events because they've left an open wound. I understand - I really do.

Harry - what you explained above is actually news to me and probably the main reason why (unlike, say 5 years ago), I find myself checking in here every single day, for the great, well-informed debates we have here. In years gone by, I'd stop by here once in a while because I wanted to chime in but felt stifled that any debate looser than strictly the music was frowned upon or threads were locked. This place is a lot more laid back these days and much to its benefit and if I might say so, it's done wonders in encouraging debate and activity in areas aside from purely the music. Yeah, we all step out of line once in a while (hence the moderating team), but this place is nowadays the most enjoyable forum I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

 

[GaryAlan]

Thanks, Harry!
And, I do understand, I really do.

Of course, the indelible music is truly the reason that Karen and Richard Carpenter
remain a part of our collective consciousness.

(Regrettably, as many a search will readily divulge, the public -at- large continues to concentrate on,
and remember Karen Carpenter for, falling victim to this disease, rather than exalting in that exquisite voice).
I wish that were not so.
She deserves, as Richard Carpenter has said, to be remembered for the music instead of
the disease).
However, in placing myself in those times, as you point out I should do , Karen Carpenter had intended to
make the world aware of her plight once she conquered the disease. Surely, then Karen Carpenter would then
have been telling the world about herself, and not about her music. She wanted to help other sufferers.
The need to help others: that is my only intent whenever I have strayed into those unfortunate events.

There was a time, as I have said, when I believed as do you, Harry. (your last sentence)
But, I now believe that there was a disconnect between what everyone wanted for the duo, and what was actually transpiring--
In that, my opinion does diverge.

(Actually, I did not perceive any 'grouchiness', and truly appreciate participating in the forum.)
I offer thanks, again, for indulgence in my post!

 

[arthowson]

I noticed when I moved my cursor over the entitled Forum " A Song For You", it states:
"a forum dedicated to Carpenters and their music".
I mis-read the motives, there.
I rather thought that discussing "Carpenters, and their music", included the good with the bad.
Don't misunderstand me, I love Richard and Karen, and all aspects of the music they created,
but sugar-coating everything paints an image not unlike that which was promulgated by the record
company. I rather believed that Richard Carpenter (and, dear Karen) wanted to be perceived as human beings.
They spent quite a bit of their later career trying to undo that image, unless I am mistaken.

Wait - I thought we were supposed to pretend the anorexia thing didn't happen. We're only really supposed to talk about her work with Richard and Bruce Forsyth.

 

[Harry]

Harry - what you explained above is actually news to me

The change was just sort of gradual. There wasn't a set start date or any kind of organized effort put forth, and it wasn't any hard and fast rules that changed, it just sort-of happened - a gradual migration. I've tried to adapt and allow things that were at least in good taste - we still don't wish to publicly discuss autopsies, graves, and other gross anorectic tools of the trade, so to speak.

Wait - I thought we were supposed to pretend the anorexia thing didn't happen. We're only really supposed to talk about her work with Richard and Bruce Forsyth.

I hope that smiley means that you're kidding!

Harry

 

[Chris Mills]

That thought has crossed my mind many times. I think by 1983 they were living in cloud cuckoo land if they thought a new album would be completed and a tour across American undertaken. In her weak state Karen probably would not have survived an ordeal like that. Would a Carpenters tour in 1983 even have sold well?

You've got me looking back in time and dreaming of one week of concerts in Royal Albert Hall, London, that would have sold out in hours in 1983.

 

[Jeff]

I had to scroll up to remember topic in an effort to stay focused. Okey dokey, no pointing fingers. Not to Rich, Ma Carpenter errr Mrs. Carpenter or studio gang L.A. pollution blah blah. I completely agree with Harry's rather eloquent assessment of Karen's responsibility to and for Karen. That's really it in a nutshell. I too am satisfied that the FORUM has morphed into the 'mainstream' as it were. I find that the music, personality, interpretations, song selections to be indelibly linked. Hence comes the foray into the despondent she, and she and he and them. All things seem to come together with more accurate and best substantiated evidence. That may help to explain the inextricable hold that SOME of us our bound. The note for note, breath for breath, tinkle of the ivories, oooo, wah and sha la la born of genius leave a question that begs answer. What collective 'muse' , emotions, personalities, events molded and produced this force never before or since vocalized? Like awe of Copperfield's magic show. How's he do it. It's fascinating, revealing even titillating. Marvel. It's the speculation here drives me f in nutz! I strive to speak of what? I dunno most notated quotes? I really don't have the inside track. Am I curious? Hell ya! Do I respect boundaries? Uhhh, as far as I can push em. In one way or another it appears most fans are headed to the same light. Call me a moth. Yet there's something about that incandescent glow that warms n chills hurts n heals. Am I nutz? Ummm...off topic and the jury's still out. Sometimes the wrangling of issues is a headache. Still in the midst, basking in the harmonies n heartbreaks we find ourselves with an evolving understanding of the great picture typed before us. Slowly emerging, allowing each of the concerned or afflicted another opportunity to assess and assimilate the majestic contributions and how they manifested. So ya, I do give Richard a break. The realness of sister-loss was all too apparent as my youngest sis underwent double mastectomy last winter. Thank you powers that be I didn't suffer RC's void but came close enough to share tears with same. I've got compassion out the ying yang but there's one little smart-as* thing I gotta slip in...I still think Ag is a b***ch. Not firsthand mind you...it's the aura that emanates from Newville Ave. That's not speculation. Drive by or check out the N&T lp cover it reeks. Ahhh, no offense Stephen.


Jeff

P.S. I'm lookin round for the lightening bolt.

 

[Chris Mills]

You've got me looking back in time and dreaming of one week of concerts in Royal Albert Hall, London, that would have sold out in hours in 1983.

Can you imagine how quickly tickets would have sold for a Japanese concert tour in 1983?

 

[mr J.]

It made the news? What news? Please provide a link.

As a minimum,Karen's last appearance would've made the news in the local town where she appeared.The info from that local paper might've possibly then circulated to larger metropolitan newspapers.

I remember this detail was prominently mentioned in the media following Karen's death-including(I believe) the PEOPLE mag cover story.The staff writers who did the PEOPLE article would've most likely sourced this information from print media.

 

[MissK]

As a minimum,Karen's last appearance would've made the news in the local town where she appeared.The info from that local paper might've possibly then circulated to larger metropolitan newspapers.

I remember this detail was prominently mentioned in the media following Karen's death-including(I believe) the PEOPLE mag cover story.The staff writers who did the PEOPLE article would've most likely sourced this information from print media.

QUOTE="mr J., post: 132628, member: 162"would've made the news in the local town where she appeared... might've possibly then circulated to larger metropolitan newspapers.....would've most likely sourced this information from print media.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like pure speculation to me. Something you have been critical of others in this forum

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Can you imagine how quickly tickets would have sold for a Japanese concert tour in 1983?

Oh yeah, a Japan concert in 83'...better yet an 84' would have been a better time as they could have marketed, 74 Budakon and the Carpenters are back in Japan again 10 years later for a sell out tour.