Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and The Carpenters

[Tim L]

I'd have to strongly disagree there. Chic contained Nile Rodgers, one of the best producers to ever twist a knob; they had the best selling single in the history of Atlantic Records ("Le Freak"); they were one of the few groups who actually put out quality music with a unique sound during the disco era. They also had Tony Thompson, one of the best drummers ever who played on many a rock record as a studio musician, and of course Bernard Edwards on bass, who contributed some of the funkiest bass lines ever put to wax.

LL Cool J -- well, he's not my cup of tea at all, but he is one of the most well known rap artists and laid the foundation for a myriad of other artists who came after him. He was also one of the first rappers to cross over into another facet of the entertainment business (acting) thus paving the way for others to follow that path too. Respect him or not, he was a groundbreaker. Whether you like rap or not, it IS a driving force in rock music today, has been responsible for hundreds of millions of record sales, and has been embraced by lots of rock bands. (Linkin Park, anyone?)

None of this is intended to diminish the Carpenters' talent, or their contributions to pop music. It's just that if I was making a list of rock and roll artists, they're one of the last names I would consider because their music just doesn't seem like rock and roll to me. That's just my 2 cents.

 

[Bill Bailey]

LL Cool J is not rock n roll. He was not part of the Rock N Roll era. Hip Hop or Rap is not Rock N Roll in any way what so ever.
There are certain people who try to make acts rock n roll when they are not.
There are several groups listed in the Rock N Roll hall of fame that should not be in there, and quiet frankly
should be taken out of the roster or decommissioned.
I can assure you that the Carpenters were right in the middle of the classic rock era and contributed to the classic rock era and should
be inducted into the Rock N Roll hall of fame.

 

[newvillefan]

LL Cool J is not rock n roll. He was not part of the Rock N Roll era. Hip Hop or Rap is not Rock N Roll in any way what so ever.
There are certain people who try to make acts rock n roll when they are not.
There are several groups listed in the Rock N Roll hall of fame that should not be in there, and quiet frankly
should be taken out of the roster or decommissioned.
I can assure you that the Carpenters were right in the middle of the classic rock era and contributed to the classic rock era and should
be inducted into the Rock N Roll hall of fame.

If I'm honest, I don't think ABBA are rock and roll and they're in there, so I think it's wrong that Carpenters are not. They're in the same vein, mainstream 70s pop acts.

 

[moog]

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame had an exhibit on "Women in Rock" a while back, including female drummers, and Karen wasn't in it anywhere. I wrote them an email about it, which I'm sure fell on deaf ears.

Linda Ronstadt was in it, and I wouldn't consider her being rock n' roll.

I thought to myself, "I bet if they released her solo album when she was still alive, she'd be in here."

 

[Bill Bailey]

I would have to say that Linda Ronstadt was right there through the true era of rock n roll. Abba was there also in that era and could be considered rock n roll.
The final years of rock n roll was 1970 to 1975 after the Beatles broke up( the Beatles broke up in 1970.) The Carpenters were absolutely a big part of the rock n roll era. There are a few reasons the rock n roll hall of fame does not seen to get it, and put the Carpenters in there. I can give 3 reasons, but will start right with one; the Carpenter's huge success carried with it a whole lot of envy and jealousy in that day. That jealousy carries over to today in certain circles and is one of the reasons these people leave them out of many mentions. The other reasons are number 1, Karen's illness which has nothing to do with her great musical accomplishments. I can tell you the power that girl had was absolutely astonishing. The 3rd reason is money. It is a certainty that many and maybe all of those groups that get inducted into the rock n roll hall of fame pay their way in or somebody pays their way. That is why the rock n roll hall of fame is really
a bogus organization.
Rock n Roll started in the 50's and continued through until about 1975 with the resurgence of disco; by 1980 rock n roll was gone. I mean any groups formed after 1979 were not rock n roll. Disco is what the vast majority of todays music is based on. Hip Hop is really disco whether people know it or not. Disco was not, and is not rock n roll. The girl groups are disco such as Britney, Katy, Gomez, and many more--just name them off.
A few groups that should not be in the rock n roll hall of fame are Run DMC, Green Day, N.W.A., and Madonna is a stretch.

 

[song4u]

I thought I was the only one who heard disco in succeeding musical genres, including hip-hop. It's not as pronounced as the 'disco era's' sound, but the influence is there.

For that matter, some WWII music had that strings and a good beat sound, so disco wasn't that original.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Rock n Roll started in the 50's and continued through until about 1975 with the resurgence of disco; by 1980 rock n roll was gone. I mean any groups formed after 1979 were not rock n roll. Disco is what the vast majority of todays music is based on. Hip Hop is really disco whether people know it or not. Disco was not, and is not rock n roll.

Any groups formed after 1979 were not rock and roll? What makes you think that? Here is a list of famous rock bands formed in 1980 or after:

Motley Crue, Loverboy, Nirvana, Slayer, Bon Jovi, Ratt, Guns 'n Roses, Metallica, R.E.M., Green Day, Poison, Cinderella, Weezer, The Smiths, Megadeth, Huey Lewis & the News, Foo Fighters, The Go-Go's, Skid Row, Smashing Pumpkins, No Doubt, Pearl Jam, Night Ranger, Quiet Riot, and those are just the ones that spring to mind. There are thousands more that never "made it big" and many others that had big radio hits. And those are just bands, there are a ton of single-person acts that came out in the 80s and since.

You'd have been more accurate to say "any groups formed after 1979 were not to my liking."

Also, hip-hop has almost nothing to do with disco. Disco is meant for dancing more than listening, and is based on melody plus dance beats, and the lyrical themes are almost always romance, partying, or dancing. Hip hop is meant for listening as much as for dancing, and is based on rapping and beats that aren't necessarily made just for dancing, and the lyrical subjects are far more wide-ranging with a big emphasis on sex and "toughness."

Most disco music is indeed not rock and roll and was never meant to be. However, disco CAN be rock and roll, if it's done that way. However, Donna Summer did some great rock/disco. Listen to her song "Cold Love," or her #1 hit "Hot Stuff" which contains killer guitar work. I'm not saying all disco is great, mind you; indeed, there was way more "crap" disco than "great" disco.

Disclaimer: I don't like hip-hop and I don't like too much disco -- I'm primarily a rock fan, late '60s/early '70s to "whenever." But a good record is a good record, no matter when it came out.

 

[Bill Bailey]

Any groups formed after 1979 were not rock and roll? What makes you think that? Here is a list of famous rock bands formed in 1980 or after:

Motley Crue, Loverboy, Nirvana, Slayer, Bon Jovi, Ratt, Guns 'n Roses, Metallica, R.E.M., Green Day, Poison, Cinderella, Weezer, The Smiths, Megadeth, Huey Lewis & the News, Foo Fighters, The Go-Go's, Skid Row, Smashing Pumpkins, No Doubt, Pearl Jam, Night Ranger, Quiet Riot, and those are just the ones that spring to mind. There are thousands more that never "made it big" and many others that had big radio hits. And those are just bands, there are a ton of single-person acts that came out in the 80s and since.

You'd have been more accurate to say "any groups formed after 1979 were not to my liking."

Also, hip-hop has almost nothing to do with disco. Disco is meant for dancing more than listening, and is based on melody plus dance beats, and the lyrical themes are almost always romance, partying, or dancing. Hip hop is meant for listening as much as for dancing, and is based on rapping and beats that aren't necessarily made just for dancing, and the lyrical subjects are far more wide-ranging with a big emphasis on sex and "toughness."

Most disco music is indeed not rock and roll and was never meant to be. However, disco CAN be rock and roll, if it's done that way. However, Donna Summer did some great rock/disco. Listen to her song "Cold Love," or her #1 hit "Hot Stuff" which contains killer guitar work. I'm not saying all disco is great, mind you; indeed, there was way more "crap" disco than "great" disco.

Disclaimer: I don't like hip-hop and I don't like too much disco -- I'm primarily a rock fan, late '60s/early '70s to "whenever." But a good record is a good record, no matter when it came out.

 

[Bill Bailey]

Hip Hop/Rap is not rock n roll.(period)
Hip Hop/Rap is just that Hip Hop/Rap. Also, Hip Hop/ Rap is dance music,
And came from the disco beat simplified. Thats like saying Johnny Cash was rock when
Johnny Cash was country. Hip Hop/ Rap lyrics are mostly
made up of gibberish; especially the newest rappers. Disco can't be rock n roll.
True Rock n Roll was over by 1975, however, many of those groups continued on and some of them
play to this day. Not one of the groups you mentioned are rock n roll.
And yes, a good record can be a good record, but that doesn't make it what it is not.

 

[song4u]

Labels.

I can hear echoes of different, historical styles in more modern music.

People had a hard time categorizing Carpenters music back in the 70's too. Thus they ended up being labeled "soft rock", "middle of the road" and "adult contemporary".

We just know their sound, whatever you call it, is pretty amazing.

 

[Yamaguchi]

LL Cool J is not rock n roll. He was not part of the Rock N Roll era. Hip Hop or Rap is not Rock N Roll in any way what so ever.
There are certain people who try to make acts rock n roll when they are not.
There are several groups listed in the Rock N Roll hall of fame that should not be in there, and quiet frankly
should be taken out of the roster or decommissioned.
I can assure you that the Carpenters were right in the middle of the classic rock era and contributed to the classic rock era and should
be inducted into the Rock N Roll hall of fame.

I entirely agree with Bill Bailey that rap and hip hop are not genuine rock; and reiterate that Carpenters have an overwhelming claim to admission to the R&RHOF, assuming that it applies a consistent standard as to what kind of music may be treated as rock or rock-and-roll for purposes of admission. Surely if Linda Rondstadt and James Taylor -- both of whose music I like and respect very much -- can be treated as R&R, so can Carpenters. If Carpenters' success had been limited to the Adult Contemporary chart (where they were the best of the best), one might make the case that they were too "soft" for the RRHOF. But if the Billboard Hot 100 was not a chart for rock/pop recording artists, I don't know what would be. And, of course, for the 1970's, Carpenters were the leading American group or individual in accumulating points on the BBH100. Here's the critical point: Carpenters were "soft rock" but it was still rock, albeit some of their music was pure romantic ballad. As I have pointed out before, see htmlttp://splashingrocks.blogspot.com/2013/01/too-polite-and-too-white., and http://splashingrocks.blogspot.com/2014/02/no-room-for-nice-in-rock-and-roll-hall.html, Karen and Richard's perverse exclusion from the RRHOF cannot be justified on the bogus grounds that they are not "rock" enough, because many admittees are in exactly the same oeuvre. It is because the jaded ex-hippies who control that organization scorn the Carpenters and their music because they are perceived as congenial, civilized embodiments of elements of a mythical white suburban culture which those jades despise.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Hip Hop/Rap is not rock n roll.(period)
Hip Hop/Rap is just that Hip Hop/Rap. Also, Hip Hop/ Rap is dance music,
And came from the disco beat simplified. Thats like saying Johnny Cash was rock when
Johnny Cash was country. Hip Hop/ Rap lyrics are mostly
made up of gibberish; especially the newest rappers. Disco can't be rock n roll.
True Rock n Roll was over by 1975, however, many of those groups continued on and some of them
play to this day. Not one of the groups you mentioned are rock n roll.
And yes, a good record can be a good record, but that doesn't make it what it is not.

Well first, I never said hip hop and rap were rock and roll. They aren't. HOWEVER, they had a huge influence on popular rock music the same way disco did. Many of the great rock artists put out a disco-ish record or two. (Stones, Rod Stewart, Kiss, the list would be about endless.)

Also hip-hop is "the disco beat simplified?" That makes no sense at all. Disco music has a MUCH simpler beat structure than hip-hop does. Genres like EDM and "house" owe a lot more to disco than hip-hop does.

Next, I don't know what you consider "true rock n roll" but I'm pretty sure you're not the one in charge of deciding what is and what isn't.

As for the groups I mentioned, please tell me what it is about a band like, well just pick any off that list, and tell me what it is about them that makes them "not true rock n roll." What makes 1975 the magical cut-off date for you?

I just don't understand why you're so eager to write off over 40 years worth of music as "not true rock and roll" when so much of it clearly is. So far you haven't given any statements to back up your opinions, you just make declaring statements. Let's hear some logic.

Listen to the newest Cheap Trick album, which came out earlier this spring. If that isn't rock'n'roll, I don't know what is. And Cheap Trick didn't get on the charts until AFTER your magical cut-off date, and they're still out there touring right now.

Also you're wrong about rap lyrics being "mostly made up of gibberish." A lot of them are extremely clever wordplay. (Keep in mind, I don't even like rap.) In other words, don't be so closed minded.

(P.S. Sorry about the thread-crap, Carpenters fans. Back to the scheduled discussion.)

 

[Tim L]

Labels.

I can hear echoes of different, historical styles in more modern music.

People had a hard time categorizing Carpenters music back in the 70's too. Thus they ended up being labeled "soft rock", "middle of the road" and "adult contemporary".

We just know their sound, whatever you call it, is pretty amazing.

You are so right! Karen and Richard Carpenter are so incredible, and their music was some of the greatest music of the 20th century. The radio airplay the Carpenters got may have been more than any other musical singers or group except maybe the Beatles.

 

[Made In America]

I will never understand why people pay attention or even care about the RnR H of F. The politics turned me off immediately and I consider it a disgrace to music. Thank heavens the Carpenters are not in it or I would have to question my stance on the organization.