If things had been different.

[Richard’s namesake]

@Chris May

Interested in all my fellow Carpenters fans views on this, but especially those of our leader.

If Karen had lived, would she a) have re-worked the 1980 solo album (I highly doubt it), and b) would she have done any more solo work alongside Carpenters?

 

[Nemily]

I‘ll go first. @Chris May told us just this morning he is working on a much anticipated project

It seems like there were a lot of plans and that would have kept the DUO too busy to do much of anything independently, at least through the mid-eighties or perhaps longer.

February 11, 1983 they were to start a new album. February 23, 1983 Grammy appearance (presenters). Summer 83 would have been a probable time of release of the new album. There would be Single release(s) summer and fall 83.

John Bettis had at least one song he had started for her which he has said will never see the light of day now and he had one or two more that he may have had in mind for Karen that most likely did see the light of day with other performers. Richard also had a few in his pocket that he was working on and I believe a couple ended up on his album. More songs would have surfaced eventually from that team.

They had one more contractual obligation with ABC to fulfill for a TV Special and that probably would have been Christmas 83.

They would have done a tour or maybe Casino type engagements. It’s hard to say if they would have promoted the album internationally as well but likely.

Anything after that would have depended on the album’s reception. Somewhere down the road I wouldn’t have counted out them doing another Christmas album due to how Karen loved Christmas songs. They also spoke about plans to re-record
Eve and Someday. And these are just the things that were already on the board at that time. Who knows what would have seeded in the meantime.

So to get back to your questions, I think no re-work and being that schedule would have taken them maybe to the end of the 80's probably no thoughts of another one.

 

[Jack A.]

My two cents…

I agree with you that she most likely would not have persisted in trying to get the album released. As disappointed as she was about the way things went down, I feel that she wanted to respect the decision to shelve it, especially after Richard came back and their career as a duo continued. Anything else released at that time likely would have been overshadowed by Made In America. Now, had she lived and opportunity offered by A&M, I’m sure she would be very eager to re-work the album, but that likely would not have happened. But I’m sure she would have been happy to know that we still eventually got to hear it the way it was originally made (which is perfectly fine, if you ask me).

Knowing how strong-willed Karen was, she may have tried to take a second stab at solo work at some point, if she truly felt that she had the potential to be a great solo artist. If she was still thinking about the shelved album up until she died, then she probably did. But truthfully, it seems that the hit material required both K&R. One Carpenter by themselves wasn’t what reached the charts. As talented as they both were individually, the blend of both Karen and Richard is what created the trademark sound we all love and recognize. Still, the possibilities for what could have been are amazing to think about.

I’d be interested to hear Chris’ thoughts on this.

 

[Richard’s namesake]

Thanks both. I have to say that, in answer to my own question, I certainly agree with you regarding the first album. I also agree with the logic that despite their talents, one Carpenter doesn’t quite do it. However, another point that I agree with is the excellent point made about Karen’s willpower - and I can’t help thinking that at some point she would have had an another go. Let’s not forget that - by Richard’s admission - the idea that he called all the shots seems ridiculous. I also wonder if, given time, he wouldn’t have made his peace with a Karen solo project more than he could when everything was going crazy for them.

Again, @Chris May’s views would be fascinating.

 

[Richard’s namesake]

Thanks both. I have to say that, in answer to my own question, I certainly agree with you regarding the first album. I also agree with the logic that despite their talents, one Carpenter doesn’t quite do it. However, another point that I agree with is the excellent point made about Karen’s willpower - and I can’t help thinking that at some point she would have had an another go. Let’s not forget that - by Richard’s admission - the idea that he called all the shots seems ridiculous. I also wonder if, given time, he wouldn’t have made his peace with a Karen solo project more than he could when everything was going crazy for them.

Again, @Chris May ’s views would be fascinating.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Late2theParty]

My two cents...at some point, with the right project, personnel, and a more realistically calmer performance schedule, I think she had the talent and charisma to have nice little romcom film or two. I'm a film enthusiast, and when you watch the TV specials, you can't take your eyes off her because she's so fun and at ease.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

By 1983, Carpenters were ice cold as a commercial concern. There would have been no point in continuing to try to make radio albums. Richard lost the plot years before in terms of selecting songs and arranging. He was straight in the elevator and radio just didn’t care.

My thought is that they’d have headed for Vegas and the Great American Songbook with occasional albums of original stuff. I think Karen would have moved toward acting and doing things away from Richard. She’d come back to Richard as home base but exclusively Carpenters work would have ended.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

By 1983, Carpenters were ice cold as a commercial concern. There would have been no point in continuing to try to make radio albums. Richard lost the plot years before in terms of selecting songs and arranging. He was straight in the elevator and radio just didn’t care.

The fact that Richard believed ‘Now’ would have made a bona fide follow up to the material on Made In America makes me inclined to believe you’re absolutely right.

 

[JohnFB]

By 1983, Carpenters were ice cold as a commercial concern. There would have been no point in continuing to try to make radio albums...

Probably true - unless the albums/songs were geared towards Adult Contemporary Radio, their natural home, where they had had 15 or 16 no.1 hits...that pieced together posthumous album "Lovelines" with it's stockpile of really good songs is a great example, or model, for the sort of thing they could have concentrated on doing.

My thought is that they’d have headed for Vegas and the Great American Songbook with occasional albums of original stuff. I think Karen would have moved toward acting and doing things away from Richard. She’d come back to Richard as home base but exclusively Carpenters work would have ended.

Ed

Yes, the pop stuff and the glory days were over - time to dive deep into the best songs ever composed - the Standards of The Great American Songbook.Karen owned every song she ever sung and she would have taken possession of many of these - she was born to sing them., This would have been the perfect pairing of the best songs ever with the best voice ever...

Speaking of that voice - I'm really not quite sure what shape it was in at the time of her passing - and this is the key to what they would have done, or could have done. Her lengthy struggle with malnutrition had taken a toll not just on her body, but on her singing voice also. There were indications of this on the Solo Album. If she had lived the really big question would have been just how much was left to the incredible appeal of that voice we loved so passionately in the early to mid 70s. How much strength and resonance and sheer beauty remained. The answer to this would have determined so many things. But then, if what she accomplished with "Now" is any indication then there was reason enough for some hope...

 

[newvillefan]

Yes, the pop stuff and the glory days were over - time to dive deep into the best songs ever composed - the Standards of The Great American Songbook.Karen owned every song she ever sung and she would have taken possession of many of these - she was born to sing them., This would have been the perfect pairing of the best songs ever with the best voice ever...

Totally agree with this. I can only imagine what might have resulted if they’d gone that way. The Karen/Ella Medley - with that stunning orchestral arrangement - was a tantalising glimpse in that direction. I’m not sure if it was arranged by Nelson Riddle, Peter Knight or Richard himself (they all have arranging credits in the TV special outro), but the orchestral parts are sublime.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

...if what she accomplished with "Now" is any indication then there was reason enough for some hope...

For me, "Now" is an indication of how far she'd fallen. Her voice is so fragile on that track, it's barely there. She just sounds weak on it. When she finally hits that "Now, now, now when I wake" bit, she sounds totally frail. Her tone is rounder than usual but the strength just isn't there to really make that part of the tune stick. For me, it's a pretty weak tune anyway. As Stephen said, not at all a good choice to proceed with and further proof that Richard just didn't get it anymore.

I get you on the "I wonder what was left" angle. My hope is that she'd recover, get her strength back, and get back to sounding great. That would have been possible.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

For me, "Now" is an indication of how far she'd fallen. Her voice is so fragile on that track, it's barely there. She just sounds weak on it. When she finally hits that "Now, now, now when I wake" bit, she sounds totally frail. Her tone is rounder than usual but the strength just isn't there to really make that part of the tune stick. For me, it's a pretty weak tune anyway. As Stephen said, not at all a good choice to proceed with and further proof that Richard just didn't get it anymore.

...

I can't come to agreement with you on NOW...I like it. I think it's a pretty good song lyrically and melodically. And as a fan of choral music I also enjoy the use of the choral group in the middle section.

Karen's vocal is relatively good - given the circumstances of her recent "recovery". I think she may sound, as you say, fragile or weak because as was his annoying habit at this stage Richard's arrangement and orchestration is over-produced and masks or overrides and muffles her singing far too much...

In any case she sounds stronger here than she did on most of the tracks on the Solo Album - a little more like her old self, which was a hopeful or encouraging thing...

 

[cam89]

She recorded NOW in April of 1982 when she came home from NY to do some recording...the TV movie makes it seem that she recovered came home for Thanksgiving 1982 and recorded NOW with RC....

 

[newvillefan]

She recorded NOW in April of 1982 when she came home from NY to do some recording...the TV movie makes it seem that she recovered came home for Thanksgiving 1982 and recorded NOW with RC....

True, but the movie had to take a lot of creative licence to get the story done. Don’t forget that she did listen to those tracks again with Richard in the studio at some point between late 1982 and early 1983 once she was back home and didn’t really respond much to what she was hearing. I won’t say what I really think as to what might have been going through her head at the time.

 

[Jack A.]

And as a fan of choral music I also enjoy the use of the choral group in the middle section.

I agree...one of the reasons I think "Now" was so well-made is that it had the perfect amount of backing vocals – Richard added just a little bit in the middle section to enhance the flavor and callback to the trademark Carpenters sound, but largely the song just showcases Karen without any harmonies, making it that much more special as what ultimately became her final recording.

The fact that Richard believed ‘Now’ would have made a bona fide follow up to the material on Made In America makes me inclined to believe you’re absolutely right.

I've heard "Now" referred to as Karen's "swan song." Although I do agree that it is a rather weak follow-up to MIA, I feel that it is a beautiful piece of writing and was the perfect song for her to leave us with. To me, it has just the right feel to be a "swan song."

 

[newvillefan]

I've heard "Now" referred to as Karen's "swan song." Although I do agree that it is a rather weak follow-up to MIA, I feel that it is a beautiful piece of writing and was the perfect song for her to leave us with.

I remember Richard saying he didn’t think ‘You’re Enough’ was up the same standard as ‘Now’ for any potential follow up to MIA, but to me it’s an equally pretty song. I’ve always loved the line ‘if they’d only shine their lucky starlight down on me” and the way Karen sings it. There’s something almost Disney-esque about it, which always makes me sad because Karen had such a love of all things Disney and this was one of her last recordings.

 

[Brendon McMahon]

I can't come to agreement with you on NOW...I like it. I think it's a pretty good song lyrically and melodically. And as a fan of choral music I also enjoy the use of the choral group in the middle section.

Karen's vocal is relatively good - given the circumstances of her recent "recovery". I think she may sound, as you say, fragile or weak because as was his annoying habit at this stage Richard's arrangement and orchestration is over-produced and masks or overrides and muffles her singing far too much...

In any case she sounds stronger here than she did on most of the tracks on the Solo Album - a little more like her old self, which was a hopeful or encouraging thing...

I agree with you. Karen's delivery of Now is a master class in poignant sensitivity to the lyrics....it may not have had the lung power of her earlier performances, but what a performance. The resonance of those low notes, wow. This song drew me to the Carpenters and my intuition is that kind of material is what a next album would have reflected...or perhaps more crossover pop country material as seen in the other superior outtakes recorded in 1980-81.
The question about a rework of the solo album... really? Given it was a product of 1979 in many ways, it would have been quite dated on some tracks pretty quickly.

 

[newvillefan]

The question about a rework of the solo album... really? Given it was a product of 1979 in many ways, it would have been quite dated on some tracks pretty quickly.

I played a couple of Karen’s solo tracks to a friend who loves Olivia Newton-John. In particular ‘Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night’. His reply came back “The chorus still has that Carpenters sound. It’s no Totally Hot”. Needless to say I took it on the chin

 

[ullalume]

By 1983, Carpenters were ice cold as a commercial concern. There would have been no point in continuing to try to make radio albums. Richard lost the plot years before in terms of selecting songs and arranging. He was straight in the elevator and radio just didn’t care.

My thought is that they’d have headed for Vegas and the Great American Songbook with occasional albums of original stuff. I think Karen would have moved toward acting and doing things away from Richard. She’d come back to Richard as home base but exclusively Carpenters work would have ended.

Ed

Domestically I agree with the ice cold summation but in the UK they were still a viable pop act. MIA reached 12 over here.

And I still believe with a bridge/middle eight (I'm afraid I'm no composer) and guitar solo, In Love Alone could have been a top 10 hit in the US. Its not necessarily one of my favourites but there's something about it that screams hit to me.

I personally like Now very much. When Richard says it was a bona fide follow up to MIA I don't think he meant as a single necessarily, only as an album cut. I'm sure had Karen lived the two of them would've supplied the bg vocals.

Finally, one must remember how different Karen could sound dependant on how she was recorded. She sounds one way on "two lives" then totally different, far better in my opinion, on At the End of a Song or Rainbow Connection, and many of those songs were recorded only days apart.

I think her voice on Now is gorgeous, reminiscent of her in the Ella medley. It's different to her younger voice and is too far back in the mix for much of the song, but she still sounded great, and it was just a work lead.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Probably true - unless the albums/songs were geared towards Adult Contemporary Radio, their natural home, where they had had 15 or 16 no.1 hits...

As someone who programmed Adult Contemporary radio stations from 1971-1981, I can tell you that the perspective in radio was that the Carpenters were already geared to AC, and fading there. They hadn't been a Top 40 act since 1975.

Yeah, they got some Top 40 airplay for "Kind of a Hush", but that was also really the nail in the coffin record, sharing the chart with "Bohemian Rhapsody", "Show Me The Way", "Dream On", "Take It To The Limit", "Rhiannon" and Bowie's "Golden Years".

AC radio was getting chilly from then on, too. About three years ago, I posted about why you can't take the Billboard AC chart numbers from the time as Gospel:

Carpenters: Adult Contemporary Chart vs Billboard Hot 100

My usual caveat - if this has been discussed elsewhere, apologies, I didn't find anything in my admittedly brief search. When looking over the Carpenters hit songs, there were 15 A/C #1 hits. All but 5 of those were also in the top 10 overall on the Billboard Hot 100 (see chart below). If you...

forum.amcorner.com

 

[JohnFB]

I agree with you. Karen's delivery of Now is a master class in poignant sensitivity to the lyrics....it may not have had the lung power of her earlier performances, but what a performance. The resonance of those low notes, wow...

"...poignant sensitivity to the lyrics..."

Yes, but wasn't it always... a master actress, a master storyteller - the natural power to make you believe all of it..

The "low notes"...they were so easy and right for her - and they were so very compelling - there never could have been enough of them...

 

[Greg]

My own feeling is when the early 90's dawned and Karen and Richard got their 70's renaisance credentials, alongside the likes of ABBA, they would have both seen a huge amount of creative opportunities - Karen especially. So many 'cool' musicians would have loved nothing more than getting Karen's voice on their record - you can just imagine someone like Madonna loving the idea of dueting on a brooding, 'old shcool' style love song with Karen. Not to mention at the other end of the spectrum, the likes of Disney getting Karen to voice some beloved 90's character. She would most probably have had a major career both as a legendary solo artist and with Richard once more.

But I suspect the 80's would have remained a little dry for the duo and i'm not sure a synth-pop tinged sound would have helped matters. We'd have probably got another Christmas album, some standards, a few tv specials, and a few more pop studio albums that would most likely have had little chart success. Though it only takes 1 unexpected smash to turn that around .... like Close to You did in 70 ...

 

[newvillefan]

But I suspect the 80's would have remained a little dry for the duo

The 80s were dry for a lot of artists from the 60s and 70s. Dusty Springfield and Neil Sedaka are two names that spring to mind. When ABBA decided to take a break in 1982, interest waned in their back catalogue as well. Their well-known biographer Carl Magnus Palm wrote that by the mid 80s “half a decade after the group’s demise, worldwide interest in their music was at an all-time low […] no-one expected the Abba back catalogue to produce anything other than slow but steady sales in the future”. That slide had already begun for Richard and Karen by 1981.

I think you’re right though that the public would have found their way back to them by the 90s. Their renaissance in the UK in 1990 was big enough - imagine what it would have been like if they had actually still been around?