Karen "Heartache Tonight" w/ONJ, Toni Tennille, et
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BarryT60
Well-Known Member
I wonder if this exists.... ??
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
This doesn't surprise me... Her hair is not exactly the same length as it was for the MMM special. I would assume it was trimmed and more "perfectly" coiffed for the special - and this is a little longer and certainly a more care-free style for this time-frame & particular segment...
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
This is weird because all these years I thought that Hollywood Nights and Music Music Music were videotaped within weeks of each other, this is the first I am seeing that Hollywood Nights was recorded at least 3 or possibly 4 months between each other. Thanks Gary for bringing this to light. I guess because Karen is dressed in similar outfit that I assumed those specials were video taped around the same time.
I agree with Barry that Karen's hair is indeed longer and fuller on Hollywood Nights and I also feel Karen looks healthier/better on Hollywood Nights than she does on Music Music Music and we know how much Karen could change in just 3 or 4 months. This raises more questions however because if Karen was indeed to use Hollywood Nights as a promotion to perform a single from her solo album then wouldn't A&M have had to agree to that launch for Hollywood Nights? Did Karen schedule it and then A&M say no because her album was not completed yet so Karen thought it was still going forward so she continued with her solo photo shoot? I thought Karen took her solo photos in Feb 1980 and the album was shelved in March 1980. Something doesn't add up. Was A&M ok with her solo album by end of the year 1979 and still giving Karen the go ahead and then pulled the brakes after Feb 80? Why when we get more info does it lead to more questions.
We still don't know if Karen possibly video taped a segment for Hollywood Nights with her single but it was left on the cutting room floor after March when it was decided the solo album was not happening.
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GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Chris,
I am still attempting to authenticate that Taping date, as reported in the Tina Turner Biography.
I am trying to construct a timeline of events, encompassing all of the items you rightly touch upon.
But, you speak the truth: Something does not add up !
Between the Fan Club Newsletters, Billboard Magazine, Newspaper Interviews, Coleman and Schmidt,
plus the addition of other textual material (as the above Tina Turner Bio) and documentaries---as one
can see there is a flood of information to dive into---and, then to authenticate/validate what is documented!
Monumental task, indeed.
But, I take the time, because Karen Carpenter deserves her say!
I am still attempting to authenticate that Taping date, as reported in the Tina Turner Biography.
I am trying to construct a timeline of events, encompassing all of the items you rightly touch upon.
But, you speak the truth: Something does not add up !
Between the Fan Club Newsletters, Billboard Magazine, Newspaper Interviews, Coleman and Schmidt,
plus the addition of other textual material (as the above Tina Turner Bio) and documentaries---as one
can see there is a flood of information to dive into---and, then to authenticate/validate what is documented!
Monumental task, indeed.
But, I take the time, because Karen Carpenter deserves her say!
"Hollywood Nights" was taped on March 17,1980-about ten days after "Music Music Music".
The photo shoot was done the first week of February,1980.
The solo album was delivered to A&M in late February 1980-for the customary playback session with A&M brass.It was at that time the album was initially rejected-the tracks had to be redone or new songs had to be recorded.
Prior to the playback session,the album was tentatively scheduled for an April/May release.
The album was officially shelved on May 5,1980.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
Wow, so Karen's hair grew that fast in 10 days?
What is your source Mr J for your date of taping for Hollywood Nights?
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Mark Bego is the author of 60 books on rock & roll and show business, Mark is acknowledged as the best-selling biographer in the rock and pop music field.
Page 151: "In 1979 Tina Turner Taped a TV special called Olivia's Hollywood Nights. Olivia invited several rock and pop stars to be her guests for a big,
all-girls production number. Olivia asked Toni Tennille, Karen Carpenter and Tina Turner.It aired April 14,1980.
It seems like an odd project to change Tina Turner's career, but that was the outcome." (From Book Tina Turner, Break Every Rule)
PopMatters/Soul Survivor (Christian John Wikane is a NYC-based journalist and music essayist):
"Turner starred in Olivia Newton-John’s Hollywood Nights television special in 1979. It marked a crucial turning point."
Coleman,page 271:
"..By the time she (Karen) had completed it in early 1980,Richard was fit. The customary 'playback' for senior A&M executives was set up.
New pictures for Karen had been taken for the cover. It was projected as one of A&m's prime releases for Spring of 1980. Jerry Moss
asked Derek Green to fly in from London to New York to hear the initial playback..."
Richard Carpenter: Videotaping for Music, Music, Music completed March 7,8,9,1980. (Carpenters' Official Website)
Studio D: Sunday,March 2,1980: Karen recorded her parts for the Karen/Ella Medley (As Time Goes By Liner Notes)
Carpenters' Fan Club Newsletters:
#64, April 1979: Karen has flown to NY to work with Phil Ramone on a solo album.
#65,September 1979: 'dispel rumors about duo split', Mom and Dad joined Karen in NY
#66,January 1980: Karen has made several trips to NY, anticipate album in March. K&R recently Appeared with Heb on 20/20,
Tentative plans in the making for a Carpenters TV Special,taping to begin next month. Richard..plans to resume work on next Carpenters album.
#67 May 1980: Karen has decided not to release a solo album.
Richard Carpenter: May 5, 1980 Album Shelved (Karen Carpenter Liner Notes)
Phil Ramone: "I had no idea that the record we were about to make would stir up considerable controversy." (Making Records ,page 96)
Page 151: "In 1979 Tina Turner Taped a TV special called Olivia's Hollywood Nights. Olivia invited several rock and pop stars to be her guests for a big,
all-girls production number. Olivia asked Toni Tennille, Karen Carpenter and Tina Turner.It aired April 14,1980.
It seems like an odd project to change Tina Turner's career, but that was the outcome." (From Book Tina Turner, Break Every Rule)
PopMatters/Soul Survivor (Christian John Wikane is a NYC-based journalist and music essayist):
"Turner starred in Olivia Newton-John’s Hollywood Nights television special in 1979. It marked a crucial turning point."
Coleman,page 271:
"..By the time she (Karen) had completed it in early 1980,Richard was fit. The customary 'playback' for senior A&M executives was set up.
New pictures for Karen had been taken for the cover. It was projected as one of A&m's prime releases for Spring of 1980. Jerry Moss
asked Derek Green to fly in from London to New York to hear the initial playback..."
Richard Carpenter: Videotaping for Music, Music, Music completed March 7,8,9,1980. (Carpenters' Official Website)
Studio D: Sunday,March 2,1980: Karen recorded her parts for the Karen/Ella Medley (As Time Goes By Liner Notes)
Carpenters' Fan Club Newsletters:
#64, April 1979: Karen has flown to NY to work with Phil Ramone on a solo album.
#65,September 1979: 'dispel rumors about duo split', Mom and Dad joined Karen in NY
#66,January 1980: Karen has made several trips to NY, anticipate album in March. K&R recently Appeared with Heb on 20/20,
Tentative plans in the making for a Carpenters TV Special,taping to begin next month. Richard..plans to resume work on next Carpenters album.
#67 May 1980: Karen has decided not to release a solo album.
Richard Carpenter: May 5, 1980 Album Shelved (Karen Carpenter Liner Notes)
Phil Ramone: "I had no idea that the record we were about to make would stir up considerable controversy." (Making Records ,page 96)
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
I should add, two other sources
(Ron Gadella -photographer in the book-- Decades A Century of Fashion, and a commentator on IMDB)
give March and February 1980,respectively, as Taping Month(s) for Hollywood Nights.
The March 17 comes from Getty Images Pictures.
Another source claims that certain spots were "live".
Well, I surely do not know the reality of this situation--Television Productions are not linear.
It is entirely plausible that this program taped different portions of the Special at different times,
then --upon completion--the different tapings were "put together" for subsequent Airing .
(Ron Gadella -photographer in the book-- Decades A Century of Fashion, and a commentator on IMDB)
give March and February 1980,respectively, as Taping Month(s) for Hollywood Nights.
The March 17 comes from Getty Images Pictures.
Another source claims that certain spots were "live".
Well, I surely do not know the reality of this situation--Television Productions are not linear.
It is entirely plausible that this program taped different portions of the Special at different times,
then --upon completion--the different tapings were "put together" for subsequent Airing .
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
And, here we have in Lakeland Ledger April 3, 1980:
"..and did Olivia and company ever have difficulty shooting this scene, in and around the ABC Entertainment Center in Century City.
..as the biker girlfriends felt the flirting was for real....it took a lot of explaining on the part of producers, directors and Olivia to
convince them it was only make-believe..."
Source:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...KIQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4PoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6796,512361
"..and did Olivia and company ever have difficulty shooting this scene, in and around the ABC Entertainment Center in Century City.
..as the biker girlfriends felt the flirting was for real....it took a lot of explaining on the part of producers, directors and Olivia to
convince them it was only make-believe..."
Source:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...KIQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4PoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6796,512361
If there was a time before the shelving of the album when Karen filmed "Heartache Tonight" for the special, I'm sure lots of people in all the camps saw it is publicity for her solo project. But I stand by my previous post and don't think any solo number was ever filmed - and this was more of a last-minute cameo appearance on her part.....
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I didn't realise that Agnes and Harold had visited Karen in New York during the recording of her solo album. I wonder if they visited Karen in the studio while she worked or whether it was a personal visit only for family time. Little did they realise, they would be there again three years later to support Karen in her fight to stay alive
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
A&Mguyfromwayback,
You are certainly correct in your observation that a solo number was not filmed,
as is Mr.J. in his date of March 17,1980 for the actual Taping of Karen's appearance on this special.
Although, sources which I have located use the phrase "invited guest", thus the implication that this
was not a fortuitous appearance. In other words, Karen didn't just happen by those studios, this was a planned event.
Needless to say, why no mention of this appearance--ever-- in the Carpenters' Fan Club Newsletters?
After all, the brief appearance on 20/20 was mentioned--after it aired.
And, the plans for the forthcoming Music,Music, Music were mentioned from January in the Newsletters.
Thus, my only real question--and, especially given how terrific Karen performed in Olivia's special,is:
Why was it kept out of those official Fan Club Newsletters?
You are certainly correct in your observation that a solo number was not filmed,
as is Mr.J. in his date of March 17,1980 for the actual Taping of Karen's appearance on this special.
Although, sources which I have located use the phrase "invited guest", thus the implication that this
was not a fortuitous appearance. In other words, Karen didn't just happen by those studios, this was a planned event.
Needless to say, why no mention of this appearance--ever-- in the Carpenters' Fan Club Newsletters?
After all, the brief appearance on 20/20 was mentioned--after it aired.
And, the plans for the forthcoming Music,Music, Music were mentioned from January in the Newsletters.
Thus, my only real question--and, especially given how terrific Karen performed in Olivia's special,is:
Why was it kept out of those official Fan Club Newsletters?
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Quite frankly, I was thrilled that this clip was brought to the fore, it had eluded me for some time.
It raises an interesting question.
In the Liner Notes of As Time Goes By, Richard states that Karen recorded her vocals for the Ella Medley as March 2,1980
and then the special taped on March 7,8,9, 1980. I Got Rhythm was recorded, mixed and videotaped in three different sections
and then edited. Finally,Without A Song was recorded ("refs cut") May 13.
(Recall: May 1980--the 'shelved' month)
Now, Karen's cameo on Olivia's special was almost certainly taped March 17,1980. (One Take Audio? Anyone have details? Can we email Olivia?)
Well, to make this as succinct as possible:
Doesn't Karen's vocal sound much stronger on the Olivia special?
Her vocals seem to possess a strength which is absent in the softer Music, Music, Music Audio. (A&M Studio D recordings, mind you).
Can I have another set of ears on this one? Is it my poor hearing?
It raises an interesting question.
In the Liner Notes of As Time Goes By, Richard states that Karen recorded her vocals for the Ella Medley as March 2,1980
and then the special taped on March 7,8,9, 1980. I Got Rhythm was recorded, mixed and videotaped in three different sections
and then edited. Finally,Without A Song was recorded ("refs cut") May 13.
(Recall: May 1980--the 'shelved' month)
Now, Karen's cameo on Olivia's special was almost certainly taped March 17,1980. (One Take Audio? Anyone have details? Can we email Olivia?)
Well, to make this as succinct as possible:
Doesn't Karen's vocal sound much stronger on the Olivia special?
Her vocals seem to possess a strength which is absent in the softer Music, Music, Music Audio. (A&M Studio D recordings, mind you).
Can I have another set of ears on this one? Is it my poor hearing?
Chris Mills
That was funny....like the dark vomited up
At the end of "Without A Song", Karen's voice can be heard clearly, there was definitely some strength in her vocal for that final note.
I know I sound like a broken record, but Karen chose to sound the way she did. She chose to sing quieter on MMM and MIA, and she chose to sing loudly on 'Heartache Tonight'. By 1982, she had apparently tired of the whispery style of singing, as she sounds like the old Karen on 'Now', and, especially, 'You're Enough'.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
A&MRetro, I believe you are correct---overall.
It simply defies explanation (at least, it does to me) how this awesome songstress
was able to go from one to the other, in so short a time-span. (say, as example, from Horizon to Hush)
As we can see from photos of Karen, the same happened with her physical appearance--
one month fine, the next month not.
And, originally, I believed her vocals oscillated from soft to strong, and back, due primarily to
the anorexia---but, as I read it, Now and You're Enough were recorded in the same recording session,
April 1982, therefore my original suspicion suffers a logical flaw.
And, given the temporal proximity of vocals recorded for Music,Music,Music, Made In America,
and Heartache Tonight, it seems as if you are certainly correct.
That being said, I just get a nagging feeling inside about this--nothing logical, just my gut.
And, I am unable to get past that performance of Top of The World, Paris 1981 (late 1981).
Karen's vocals are nearly inaudible to me, and it simply reinforces her appearance at that time.
(And, am I the only one who has always believed that Now sounds too soft and the key too high?)
It simply defies explanation (at least, it does to me) how this awesome songstress
was able to go from one to the other, in so short a time-span. (say, as example, from Horizon to Hush)
As we can see from photos of Karen, the same happened with her physical appearance--
one month fine, the next month not.
And, originally, I believed her vocals oscillated from soft to strong, and back, due primarily to
the anorexia---but, as I read it, Now and You're Enough were recorded in the same recording session,
April 1982, therefore my original suspicion suffers a logical flaw.
And, given the temporal proximity of vocals recorded for Music,Music,Music, Made In America,
and Heartache Tonight, it seems as if you are certainly correct.
That being said, I just get a nagging feeling inside about this--nothing logical, just my gut.
And, I am unable to get past that performance of Top of The World, Paris 1981 (late 1981).
Karen's vocals are nearly inaudible to me, and it simply reinforces her appearance at that time.
(And, am I the only one who has always believed that Now sounds too soft and the key too high?)
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
You're not alone, I have often thought it doesn't even sound like Karen on this recording. Too high, too light and airy a vocal for what is supposed to be quite a reflective, deep song.
It was a way different setting from her usual "up close and personal with the microphone" technique. This was a loud TV number where everyone was belting it out.
Harry
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Well, Richard states that the Lead vocal, by Karen, for the "Hits Medley"
( from the aired-December 8, 1976 Television Special ) was performed Live.
The "Superstar/Rainy Days Medley" , from that same show, was recorded, in studio, September 26, 1976 .(And, videotaped 9/30,10/1 and 10/2/76).
There does seem to be a difference in vocals and Karen's appearance, between these two episodes for the same television special.
One source reports that Olivia's TV Special has some parts done 'live', but the part which Karen was shown in, was (video) taped on March 17,1980.
However, that does not tell me if Karen's vocals were done at that time (March 17, 1980).
Karen sounded very strong on Olivia's show, which, if she were 'away' from a 'close-microphone' does not make sense to me.
Conversely, the "Music,Music,Music" Vocals would have been (pre) recorded in the studio, close-microphone.Those vocals sound weaker to my ears.
(And, even then, why the lip-synched portion of 1973's "This Masquerade" in the Ella Medley?)
Just some thoughts.
( from the aired-December 8, 1976 Television Special ) was performed Live.
The "Superstar/Rainy Days Medley" , from that same show, was recorded, in studio, September 26, 1976 .(And, videotaped 9/30,10/1 and 10/2/76).
There does seem to be a difference in vocals and Karen's appearance, between these two episodes for the same television special.
One source reports that Olivia's TV Special has some parts done 'live', but the part which Karen was shown in, was (video) taped on March 17,1980.
However, that does not tell me if Karen's vocals were done at that time (March 17, 1980).
Karen sounded very strong on Olivia's show, which, if she were 'away' from a 'close-microphone' does not make sense to me.
Conversely, the "Music,Music,Music" Vocals would have been (pre) recorded in the studio, close-microphone.Those vocals sound weaker to my ears.
(And, even then, why the lip-synched portion of 1973's "This Masquerade" in the Ella Medley?)
Just some thoughts.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
Tangentially, we have this, as reported Lakeland Ledger, July 16, 1979:
Olivia Puts on Fireworks at Friendly Little Celebration
"..one of Australia's leading ladies celebrated the fourth of July..at
her Malibu house overlooking the Pacific, and all.
".. Put on a fireworks display for those she love's best... After which everyone moved to the
built-in dance floor next to the swimming pool...everyone moved to the beat of disc...
The movers included....The Rod Stewarts, Karen Carpenter, Andy Gibb...."
Source:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...=Oo0sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7010,18196
Olivia Puts on Fireworks at Friendly Little Celebration
"..one of Australia's leading ladies celebrated the fourth of July..at
her Malibu house overlooking the Pacific, and all.
".. Put on a fireworks display for those she love's best... After which everyone moved to the
built-in dance floor next to the swimming pool...everyone moved to the beat of disc...
The movers included....The Rod Stewarts, Karen Carpenter, Andy Gibb...."
Source:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...=Oo0sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9_oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7010,18196
If you watch the 'Hits Medley' very closely, you'll notice that Karen walks away from one of the mics as she's singing, but she's still loud and clear. It's at the end of 'I Won't Last A Day Without You', if memory serves. If she's singing 'live', she might have had a boom or another one hidden on her.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I don't think the medley from the First Television Special was sung live by Karen. I think it was recorded live by the band to give it a live feel but if you listen closely, Karen's lead is double-tracked in parts of the medley and her overdubbed backing vocals can also be heard in places too (especially on 'Close To You', 'Ticket To Ride' and 'Only Yesterday'). You're also right that she walks away from the mic on at least a couple of occasions but there's no overhead boom mic in sight and no drop out of Karen's vocal. Also, using that many different type of microphones would have produced a different sound on Karen's lead, but there's absolutely no difference as she moves from one to another. I think it was done to create some variety for the long clip and another very good case of her miming expertly
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