Not Herb?

[Captaindave]

Just as a follow up on my post above...

Anyone who can play the trumpet lines in Zorba the Greek cleanly and with the precision that you hear on the album is a very good trumpet player. Very good control of the horn and good ability to execute technical material - double tonguing on moving sixteenth note runs, etc.

So, if we agree that Herb played that, I can tell you for certain that he could have played anything else on any TJB recording with ease, especially the little, easy by comparison solos on some of the other songs...

 

[Greg Shannon]

I just can't take this topic seriously. I SAW Herb perform in 1966 (or '67--I can't remember exactly after all these years), and I've listened to these albums for many decades, and I know Herb's sound. It's distinctive. Ollie may very well have participated as a studio musician, but his role has certainly been exaggerated.

Greg Shannon

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Maybe Ollie had a lead part with one of the many Tij-wanna be groups of the time ie) Los Norte Americanos, The Brass Ring etc. And to comment on Neil's earlier post, Herb's improvising style DID change after the Alpert/Masakela sessions. Herb himself said that he learned a lot from Hugh during those sessions and later Herb had influence from Stan Getz, whom he studied jazz with. I tell you Ollie had to have done BMB sessions and just didn't know the difference or can't remember correctly.

David,
who can't buy into this thread.....

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

Did Herb Alpert play his own horn on the early sessions? Of course he did. You can rest easy. And of course I have word that the honorable Carol Kaye with all sincerity had fourty years of old specifics to remember (she was very busy in those days) but Herb did his own TJB riffs. Ollie was there and he emailed me once and said if I want more details call Bob Edmonson. (which I never did) Herb could play and did and there is no question about it. Peace amigos..........Jay

 

[Rudy]

I do think that the high note lick on Casino Royale was performed by someone else. Somewhere I heard it may have been Bud Brisbois. Also the licks in Zazueria that were mentioned above. I can't recall what kind of lines are in the other songs mentioned.

"Casino Royale" was already a finished Burt Bacharach recording for the film when it was flown into A&M for Herb to add his trumpet parts to. I believe the recoring was made in London.

One way to settle this issue: does anyone know if the musician's union records are available to the public? If so, it would show any record of Ollie Mitchell recording for the TJB.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I just read in a Barbra Streisand interview that she did all the crucial vocal passages on the Brasil '66 recordings, not Lani Hall. Lani was mostly for touring. Also, that Liberace did all the more challenging piano work on the recordings, not Sergio. This comes as a shock to me, since I always thought the A&M musicians were extremely talented.

David,
having some fun with this concept..........

 

[Mr Bill]

According to Lionel Hampton's website, the Baja Maimba Band recordings....

--Mr Bill

 

[Mr Bill]

I've also read that Karen Carpenter didn't do her own drumming and that mousketeers from the Mickey Mouse Club actually did it.

--Mr Bill
just adding a little humorous food for thought...

 

[stolfstolf]

here are 3 more bits from carol from a different site called bottom line...
note emphasis in the 2nd one is MINE...---stolf---


CK Along the studio subsitution thread, I did not tell quite the whole story, there are reasons why Ollie Mitchell played the Herb Alpert trumpet solo parts on Herb's records, reasons why Tony Terran did the Ray Anthony trumpet parts on his too, etc. With Herb, while he was a so-so trumpeter, his talents really lie in producing, and he knew it! He was a fine producer, a pleasant person to work for, and respected us very much, especially the jazz musicians. Ollie did play on the trumpet solos from "Lonely Bull" on (cut in a garage btw and later they were cut at Gold Star, I played guitar on a few and elec. bass on "Whipped Cream"), and on and on.

We all knew it, it was fairly common to "sub" for someone not up to the high standards of musicianship we studio musicians were. It not only made sense (Herb would have to take time out from producing, and just practice for months), but studio musicians were just excellent musicians, something I think all musicians can identify with and be proud of. Ray Anthony did play fairly good trumpet, but there again, Tony Terran (who used to beat us to the answering service phones to check on his stock market things), was just that much better, one of the all-time straight trumpet lead greats! Tony was typical Italian, didn't mince words, was sharp (good looking too), and had a fast wit, and sure had that fine lead trumpet sound, and why shouldn't Ray Anthony take advantage of a musician talent like that?

While we all (the "in" crowd i.e.) were getting double-scale good pay, Herb went out of his way to make sure Ollie was appreciated, and Tony I'm sure did very well too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like everyone else in the 60s, Herb Alpert, whom I've known since 1958, hired regular studio musicians (some of whom did play in his touring group, no, studio musicians do NOT tour as a rule, they can't afford it, too much time, too little money). Even Sinatra hired studio musicians sometimes as opposed to his touring group, altho' in that case he did get the best. Herb also. Herb is a brilliant producer, nice man to work for, but like Quincy Jones, is not a particularly fine trumpet player (why Ollie Mitchell wound up doing most of the soloings).

And road musicians, even the best ones, simply don't have the everyday skills of studio musicians to create hit recordings (altho' some were involved for a short time in hit-making like the wonderful John Pisano). No I don't think I played on the whole "Zorba" album at all (the picture, like all the rest of the 60s albums, is of the "touring group" not the actual studio musicians who cut that stuff -- Russ Wapensky's book of our Union recording credits of the 60s will be out 1st of 1999, Greenwood Press) but did do my share of work for Herb, el. 12-string soloing on "Mexican Shuffle", guitars on quite a few of Herb's things (not all), and bass on "Whipped Cream".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I and others in my business tend to generalize a little. Like when Ollie Mitchell said he played on "all" the Herb Alpert recordings, I had to go back and ask him again as to the meaning of "all", as when we say "all" we really mean all the ones that meant something and/or sold well. But he did say that he did play the Herb Alpert trumpet solos on literally "all". We never found the time for little details that didn't mean a darn thing really, we had a life.


http://www.amscons.com/tbl/

 

[Stephen Vakil]

I am no musician but having listened to Herb's musics for almost thirty years, I must say that I was very surprised at the suggestiuon that a lot of what I have been listening to wasn't what I thought it was!

I beleive that Herb's playing has an easily identifiable sound and I'm not convinced that some of his work was played by someone else. Of course, there are moments when I wonder whether that's Herb playing (such as the BMB's Do You Know The Way to San Jose) but I'm not sure, but most of the time, you just know.

I think Herb's style did evolve from hte Masekela albums, but perhaps that was a function of working with Masekela rather than having to solo for the first time.

Having seen Herb in concert twice (97 and 98) he seemed to have no difficulty in improvising as well as playing instantly recognisable music. If he could do it then in his 60's, I'm sure he wouldn't have had a problem when he was 30!!

Stephen

 

[Captaindave]

I will agree with this in the midst of this discussion...

Studio/session players in a place like LA where so much of the big time music business is located and professional recording takes place are probably among the best players on the face of the Earth. They must be absolute masters of their instruments, because they have to be able to play virtually anything that they see or are asked to play. You have to be the best to do and get the work...

So, I don't know about the TJB recordings, but I have no doubt that to be an in-demand studio player means you are the best of the best. The technical abilities of such players are pretty amazing. They will be able to play anything.

Who can say? I know that there are many trumpet players that have technical superiority over Herb Alpert. Whether any of these ever played on TJB recordings...did Herb ever utilize such talent?

Dunno...

 

[Dave]

According to Lionel Hampton's website, the Baja Maimba Band recordings....

--Mr Bill

Uh, well, as for those Wes Montgomery recordings... :twitchy:

Dave

...wondering why nothing POSTHUMOUS has been done on Montgomery, a la Jimi Hendrix, such as CRASH LANDING and MIDNIGHT LIGHTNING...

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I just visited Carol Kaye's website and noticed that our very own Dan Bolton sent an email to her asking her to shed some light on this much belabored subject. She, in turn, emailed Ollie asking him about his role in the TJB recordings. His response stated that "The TJB was Herb's trip. I played with him on the first few hit albums and it was kinda like playing trumpet duets as I recall and I played with him on the first 3 live concerts, but I didn't want to sign a 5 year contract". He says that he doesn't nknow what went into each recording and that Herb would be a better person to ask. There, it's settled. Ollie's role was very small and may have been partly BMB sessions. For those who even considered the possibility that Herb may have faked his recordings, I will say again, there's no mistaking that sound. I didn't buy into this for a second. I don't think Herb could have been happy being an instrumental Millie Vanelli. He has too much integrity and love for his craft. Besides, he studied with Ollie's father who told him after he mastered the Arban Method Book (which is 10 times more difficult to play than any TJB tune) that the most important thing was to be original and develop his own style. So it doesn't make sense that Herb would hide behind his teacher's son. If you're reading this Herb, NOONE could play "Tijuana Taxi" the way you did. I don't care how high they can play. You make music good enough to still be fresh after 39 years! BTW, for those who wish to read the emails, go to CarolKaye.com and click the forum link.

David,
glad this nonesense has finally been put to rest

 

[Dave]

Yes, this has been a pretty much "belabored" topic. I'm glad that someone here went right to the source from which all this came and asked about Ollie "suppossedly involved" in the Recodings. Guess we really had ourselves going there. And who knows, maybe we might have gotten someone's attention...no?

Dave :goofygrin:

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Yes, this has been a pretty much "belabored" topic. I'm glad that someone here went right to the source from which all this came and asked about Ollie "suppossedly involved" in the Recodings. Guess we really had ourselves going there. And who knows, maybe we might have gotten someone's attention...no?

Dave :goofygrin:

Well, that wasn't the intention...just wanted to solve whatever mystery there might be...and it doesn't really seem like there was much of one to begin with. This HAS been a very interesting thread, though...I've learned a lot about what it was like in the studio back in the'50's and '60's; and it's very clear that the sidemen were often "unsung heroes", and many of then will probably remain annonymous. That's really too bad...

Carol Kaye's website is a treasure trove of info about the '50's, '60's and later recording scene, though. A lot of the top sidemen of the era regularly visit and are very willing to contribute. It would have been a lot harder to answer this question without her help.

Thanks, Carol and Ollie!


Dan

 

[Rudy]

I still think some here felt it was a Milli Vanilli situation--the question wasn't about Herb not playing on his own albums, it was more about some parts on record were played by someone other Herb. I mean, if we all used to think Tonni Kalash was on TJB recordings, it's no stretch of the imagination to think Ollie assisted Herb either.

Thanks to Carol for asking and Ollie for answering. And to Dan for putting the ball in motion.

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I was quite fortunate to sit in at A&M Records in February of '74, as Julius Wechter's guest in the Chaplin Screening Room - and watched the TJB rehearse for a new LP and tour. I sat for 3 hours as Herb and the Brass went through the songs. It was amazing- and beleive me - Ollie Mitchell was not around. Herb plays the same in person as the recordings.

 

[david]

Hey, I just heard that it was actually Miles Davis that was playing on those old TJB albums, and Herb was busy taping "Bitches Brew."
Truth be told it was never really Karen Carpenter - it was Joe Cocker and he ended up damaging his voice in the process.

 

[david]

For the sake of speculation, since it has been metnioned on this post about Herb hitting notes, what in your opinions, is the highest note on the register you think he could hit on a good day. I know, a lot of people don't care. But I have often wondered. Any thoughts?

 

[Captaindave]

IMO, as a long time, formally trained trumpet player myself, I don't know any way to ascertain the answer to this question.

I simply do not know what he is capable of, and I don't think anyone else could say - any idea would be total speculation.

Herb certainly has played long enough, and having studied at one time under one of the great teachers of all time - Carmine Caruso - as well as others, you might speculate that he would have a range that would be commensurate with that kind of training and experience.

But I don't have any way of knowing.

The typical range of the trumpet for most practical purposes is low F#(3 ledger lines below the staff), to high C(2 ledger lines above the staff). However, while the low end has not changed, the high end has been dramatically pushed upward in recent years by the likes of various high note specilaist players. It is not uncommon for a skilled player with the necessary abilities and attributes to play to a double high C(on top of the 5th ledger line above the staff) and even beyond. I have even heard of triple high C(8 ledger lines above the staff) and beyond. To put it another way, double high C would be 3 octaves above middle C on the piano; triple high C would be 4 octaves above middle C... you are moving on toward the high end of the piano keyboard at that point.

So, range nowadays is almost unlimited - it all depends on what the player can do. Of course, there may be a decline in tonal integrity in the altissimo register for many players, but there are some who are truly amazing in this regard.

There are some players that are known for their exceptional range. Arturo Sandoval, Jon Faddis, Bill Chase, Cat Anderson, Lew Soloff, Maynard Ferguson, and many, many more. I have a feeling that Herb would not rank anywhere among them - perhaps not even close. These players are high note specialists. They play in the super high range virtually all the time.

And, since studio players have been mentioned, I am going to speculate that most of these players are quite a bit "stronger" - including range - than Herb, based on what I have heard from Herb on recording and what I have heard many of the top session players do...some of these players are pretty amazing...they are players who set the standard and define the boundaries of the instrument for everyone else.

But, I would say that he can probably play up to a level that would be reasonable for someone of his experience and training. But if I would hazard a guess as to what that might be, I could be quite in error...

OK...I'll try...I can't help it... at least to an F or G above the standard high C(mid way between high C and double high C)...I would expect a real pro who is well trained and experienced to do that. Although Herb has no need to prove himself, it would be probably necessary for anyone else to play to at least that range, or more, in order to be a working professional...

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Truth be told it was never really Karen Carpenter - it was Joe Cocker and he ended up damaging his voice in the process.

I heard that it was Rod Stewart...


Dan

 

[manifan]

What really chaps my a$$ about all this is the comment that Herb is just an "average" trumpet player and nothing special. If that's so, how did he get to be so successful?

And I have to ask, now that the subject has been mentioned: did anyone ever see Herb play "Zorba the Greek" in concert? Is it really him on the song?

 

[Rudy]

What really chaps my a$$ about all this is the comment that Herb is just an "average" trumpet player and nothing special. If that's so, how did he get to be so successful?

And I have to ask, now that the subject has been mentioned: did anyone ever see Herb play "Zorba the Greek" in concert? Is it really him on the song?

Like Carol Kaye said, he had a talent for arranging and producing. Herb himself even admitted, in his earliest years, that he couldn't find his own "voice" on the trumpet. I think the biggest strides were after he lost his lip after the TJB dissolved. Once over that hump, he'd learned the trumpet was just a mechanical device, "a piece of plumbing" as he called it. He took lessons with Carmine Caruso and likely others, and you can easily hear how throughout his solo career, he's been constantly improving his technique, from the mechanical aspects (technique, embouchure, etc.) to shaping his improvising to be more expressive. If anything, I hear a lot of confidence to his playing on Second Wind; he really "nails it" on that one.

As for "Zorba", it has been a traditional TJB show closer--quite a crowd pleaser actually! I don't recall if he did it on the "Spanish Moon" tour in the late 80's, but he did play it on the mid 70's TJB tours.

 

[Captaindave]

Well, like I said earlier, the person playing trumpet on Zorba the Greek is a very good player, in order to make it sound the way it does. The skills needed to play those trumpet lines like that are not found in your typical beginner or "weekend" player.
However, ANY highly accomplished, professional player could play those lines.

Yes, I heard the original TJB back in 1968 and 1969 and they did play Zorba the Greek as the closing song in the live concerts. So, they did play it, and it was Herb and Tonni Kalash themselves...I think it is somewhat silly to think these two guys did not or could not play it. Even I, with a little "brushing up" on those parts, could rip through those lines. It's not that big a deal...for a good player...

Now, there is something in my memory that tells me that I did hear them hit the first note ONLY with a little "fall off" in each of the descending sixteenth note runs as they cascade down the scale... instead of each and every note in between...kind of a little change for the live performance...

But I could see why they might do that...it's the last song in the concert, lips are tired, and you don't want to "flub" the intricate fingering and double tonguing on one of your best known songs in front of maybe twenty thousand people - ANYONE could "flub" it - in the recording studio you can just redo it, but there's no second chance in concert to stop and start over...so to be on the safe side - just a little "insurance" so to speak.. the audience will never notice or care...I'd do it that way myself...going on memory here of details from 35 years ago, folks...

I think we must be careful to not equate the terms "successful" and "good."
We can all think of individuals and even groups who are "successful" - if we mean commercially successful - and yet are not what I, at least, would call "good" from a musical standpoint. For example, I do not think Britney Spears is a "good" singer or musician at all; yet she is successful at what she has done.

I am not a guitar player, but I do not consider any of the Beatles to be excellent guitar players. Nor a variety of other very successful rock artists either. I am personally acquainted with one guitar player that, IMO, is far, far superior to Lennon, Harrison, McCartney, and a whole bunch of other very successful artists, but lives right here in my community and has no fame or success at all. His playing is absolutely technically fascinating, yet he works for the local telephone company...IMO, the finest guitar player I have ever heard is Phil Keaggy, ands he is nowhere nearly as famous or "successful" as someone like Keith Richard, who isn't even close to Phil as a guitarist, IMHO...

In other words, there isn't a correlation between quality and success in the world of entertainment.

IMO, Herb Alpert is a good trumpet player. I'll even say that Herb Alpert is an excellent trumpet player. And, he created an original and unique sound and style, with some original songs and unusual arrangements, that many people liked. He presented it to the general public at the right time and place. There is his success from the commercial standpoint.IMO, it is/was the TJB music, sound, and style that made Herb Alpert successful - more so than his trumpet playing per se...

I do not think Herb Alpert is comparable to some of the trumpet "greats" of the past and present. When you consider the prodigious playing skills of the likes of Al Hirt, Doc Severinsen, Wynton Marsalis, Maurice Andre, Maynard Ferguson, Louis Armstrong, Arturo Sandoval, and many, many others, I do not place Herb in this company, based on all the playing I have heard Herb do in concerts and on recordings.

But, I do not think it matters, because Herb has done his own unique "thing," and does not need to be compared to other players. He is original and unique, and IMO, stands in a class by himself. Moreover, he has never, to my knowledge, presented himself as a "competitor" with these other players. He is a stylist rather than a technician.

He is an excellent trumpet player and an excellent musician in his own right.

 

[Mr Bill]

... I think the biggest strides were after he lost his lip after the TJB dissolved. Once over that hump, he'd learned the trumpet was just a mechanical device, "a piece of plumbing" as he called it. He took lessons with Carmine Caruso and likely others, and you can easily hear how throughout his solo career, he's been constantly improving his technique...

That's probably the most true statement in this thread! Herb's playing on the two mid-70s revived TJB albums is among his best work technincally ever, especially after BAC and Summertime. And on both those LPs (and performances of the era) he knew exactly when to pass it off to Mr Findley...

--Mr Bill