Not Herb?

[Rudy]

...so to be on the safe side - just a little "insurance" so to speak.. the audience will never notice or care...I'd do it that way myself...going on memory here of details from 35 years ago, folks...

All I remember of the two 70's concerts was Zorba was the final song of the encore, and the audience was so worked up by what was obviously the crowd favorite they wouldn't have noticed any flubbed notes at all. It's like a party atmosphere at that point...everyone's clapping along, the band's cutting loose on the last song, and the concert ends on a high point. Thing is, as in tune as my ear was to music, melody, pitch and rhythm even at that age, I don't recall Herb and Bob Findley NOT playing it correctly!

Plus, you figure after all those years in concert, it would be hard to FORGET how to play that tune! Sort of like the exercises a lot of brass and woodwind players practice with constantly over the years.

 

[david]

On "Qué Pasa Mr. Jones?" is that Herb hitting those high notes? (I think you know what I am referring to) If it is that isn't bad at all! Not that it matters really. Part of what makes Herb so unique (In my opinion) is that he is reclusive, never really in the spotlight, yet so prolific an influence. I guess that is one reason why I keep getting drawn to these posts, people who seem to understand or at least tolerate an inane question.
And yes, I totally agree that Herb is an excellant trumpet player. I will go so far as to say it would not matter who he was playing with, he would find a way to shine by improvising - the mark of a true talent.

 

[Dave]

On "Qué Pasa, Mr. Jones?" is that Herb hitting those high notes? (I think you know what I am referring to) If it is that isn't bad at all! Not that it matters really. Part of what makes Herb so unique (In my opinion) is that he is reclusive, never really in the spotlight, yet so prolific an influence. I totally agree that Herb is an excellant trumpet player. I will go so far as to say it would not matter who he was playing with, he would find a way to shine by improvising - the mark of a true talent.

Yes, I just think Herb is peerless, too. As a trumpeter, recording artist and A&M's long-time Chairman Of The Board!

Dave

...and priceless...!

 

[Captain Bacardi]

On "Qué Pasa Mr. Jones?" is that Herb hitting those high notes?

No, that's Humberto Ramirez hitting those notes. Herb is not a high note trumpeter at all.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[DAN BOLTON]

For an interesting read, go to www.carolkaye.com and in the forum section, click onto "Studio Musicians of the '60's and '70's...she talks a lot about why studio musicians filled in for established artists in recording sessions. It's pretty enlightening.


Dan

 

[bugleboy]

According to a studio musician friend of mine, Julius Weichter told him Ollie Mitchell played the solo (1st part, melody) on Tijuana Taxi and that Herb wasn't even there (Too busy setting up tour schedules and signing contracts, I guess). And supposedly there were others.

Give TJ Taxi a listen. It doesn't sound like Herb to me.

But not all the solos. No way, Jose.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Doesn't sound like Herb on "Tijuana Taxi"? You've got to be joking!! If there is one song that really says "Herb", it's "Tijuana Taxi". Ollie has already dispelled the rumor that he played the solos on the TJB songs, so I think we're grabbing at straws here. Herb has a particular liking for TT. He even named the song. The only part of the song that may possibly not be him is the high trumpet on the bridges of the song. But even there, I would say that it's more than likely him. Listen again and you'll notice the same tonality, phrasing style and inflections throughout the "GOING PLACES" album. Especially "Spanish Flea", "Mae", and "A Walk In The Black Forest". And once more, it has been stated that Herb often dubbed his parts into the recording after the accompanyment was recorded and was not present during the recording session. If that's not Herb on "Tijuana Taxi", then God didn't make little green apples.

David,
wondering if it's really Frank on"Strangers In The Night".......

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

Amigos....Rest easy....Rest easy....Herb Played the trumpet on his albums. The first couple of albums were recorded more live so another trumpeter was needed but Herb blew strong. It was him!!! Some of the "high brass smacks" were other studio guys,(ala Slick...Casino Royal) but Herb would blow his $^&$#$% off (and that's a quote.) I can't and won't say more but Senor Alpert could and did play da trumpet and we love it.
Paz amigos.............Jay J/O

 

[david]

I'm a litle confused here. I read references to other musicians playing the "high" parts to songs like "Slick" or "Tijuana Taxi." I can understand "Casino Royale" but are "Slick" and "Tijuana Taxi" that high on the register that Herb needed help? That does not make sense to me.
I guess he is comforatble playing in the middle regsiter and that is certainly okay. I heard him play at the Concord Pavillion in 1984 and he sounded as if he could blow anybody away - and I mean anybody.

 

[Captaindave]

This is my opinion, affected by the fact that I am a trumpet player...

I am sure that Herb could have easily played anything on Tijuana Taxi and Slick, including any upper notes. The upper notes on those songs are simply not all that high, and any players of Herb's stature, training, and experience could no doubt play them easily...The question that has been up for discussion on this thread has been the extent of Herb's playing on his various recordings... I have always believed that he played most of what you hear as the basic melody and harmony lines of the songs on all the recordings - but there seems to be some reason to believe that he may have had some "help" here and there?

The general consensus is that Herb most likely did not play the EXTREME high register licks on some other songs, such as Casino Royale, where there is obviously large orchestration involved.

As mentioned above, determining the actual extent of Herb's range is impossible, unless you could sit down with him and he would show you. At the same time, I do not think that Herb is a high register specialist as are some other trumpet players, who are known for this particular characteristic of their playing...

So, to me, this discussion is less about what Herb could do, and more about what he actually DID do...

I have no doubt that Herb could/can play all the songs he ever recorded - I have seen the live performances where he did so, along with Tonni Kalash. But, I heard Tonni do some high register playing here and there in the live concerts, as well as Bob Findley when he was the trumpet player in the second TJB. So, I think that Herb played all the songs and used his helpers where he thought it would be to a useful purpose...perhaps both in and out of the recording studio.

And, I think Carol Kaye's website discussion on concert vs studio players is interesting...

 

[Steven J. Gross]

The bottom line:
Herb has played live at hundreds of dates. Millions have SEEN him play. Reminds me of when some idiot told Buzz Aldrin he did not walk on the moon- and Buzz hit him! Rumors are a dime a dozen.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

We could continue this thread forever and not get a definitive answer to the question. The only way everyone will be satisfied is if Herb himself would post a message regarding this topic, and that probably wouldn't ever happen. Ollie says that he played on the first few albums,and I took that to mean LONELY BULL, VOLUME 2, SOUTH OF THE BORDER, and WHIPPED CREAM. There were often at least 3 trumpet parts featured in the cuts from those albums; and it would make sense for another trumpet player to be present at the session, because some of the arrangements were rather complex, like MORE from VOL 2, for example...it is also possible that Ollie filled in for Herb at a lot of the sessions, because Herb DID have a record company to run, as well as other acts to produce...and he could ALWAYS overdub his own parts whenever he could.

I remember hearing Rich Little say that Jimmy Stewart was asked to record some public service spots for a major humanitarian organization, but had to decline because of his busy schedule. Rich asked Jimmy if it would be okay if HE filled in, and Jimmy agreed. The public NEVER knew the difference. It was Rich Little doing Jimmy Stewart, but it was STILL Jimmy Stewart!

Maybe there were times when a similar situation occurred when the TJB albums were being recorded, and maybe not. We don't know, and probably never will for sure.

I don't think Ollie did the bulk of Herb's recording...no way was he a Milli Vanilli...he's said that he wasn't. I'll take his word for that.

Dan, tired of beating a dead horse...

 

[thetijuanataxi]

WINDPLAYER INTERVIEW - Jan/Feb 1986

"In 1962, I was experimenting in my garage with two tape machines. I was overdubbing the trumpet from one machine to the next, seven-eight times, stacking the parts. This was similar to what Les Paul was doing with the guitar. That, essentially, was the Tijuana Brass sound. I was playing all the trumpet parts on the record.There was that one particular feel on those records that made them special."
HERB ALPERT- 1986
See, Herb answered the question long before we asked. Here it is folks, straight from the boss' mouth. That's good enough for me.
As for how high Herb can play, the highest note he has played on his recordings, I believe, is a D above high C (Cat Man Do). I'm sure on a good day he could at least play to high G with authority. I think he doesn't because there are other trumpeters who can do that better. Herb does what he excels in. He's smart enough not to play in a league where he may not have his own niche. Besides, how many people want to hear Herb screech anyway, not me. I listen to his music because his focus is on the things that are most important to me. Good melody, good arrangement and an engaging tonality that makes you say "I want more!".

David,
relaying the facts, online....

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Herb has mentioned several times in interviews that he tried the high note routine, but he shook his front teeth loose doing that. I also think a high D is the highest he's played, on "Cat Man Do", "Drivin' Home" and "African Summer" (off the top of my head). Of course, that doesn't mean anything. When I was at Berklee I knew a sax player that could pick up a trumpet and hit a Double High C with little effort - but he didn't know anything about playing trumpet. "Man, it's just a note" he would always say.


Capt. Bacardi
...also tiring of this thread online...

 

[alpertfan]

Pat Senatore, the original bassist in the Tijuana Brass talked about this in 1999. He said that the first few albums had studio musicians who included Carol Kaye, Julius Wechter, and Hal Blaine (no mention of Ollie Mitchel). According to Senatore, for the second trumpet part, Alpert would pull the tuner out of his horn so as to get a high pitch and make the two trumpets have an authentic mariachi sound. When the group was formed in '65, they were the only ones utilized in the studio with the exception of extra percussion parts, in which other musicians were in fact utilized.

See www.members.aol.com/lanesong/HERBALPE.HTM. Click on "Pat Senatore Interview". (It's in two parts).

 

[manifan]

For an interesting read, go to www.carolkaye.com and in the forum section, click onto "Studio Musicians of the '60's and '70's...she talks a lot about why studio musicians filled in for established artists in recording sessions. It's pretty enlightening.


Dan

Sorry, but most of this sounds unbelievable to me. Groups are talented enough to play their hits on tour but not in the studio? Most groups try to duplicate their recordings as close as possible when playing live. If they can do it live, why not in a studio?

She talks a lot about improvising, too. Aren't most songs recorded with written arrangements? I understand improvising a bit on solos, but I thought that once the improv bit was worked out the groups then rehearsed until they got it right, then laid it down in the studio. Perhaps I'm just naive, but that's the way I always assumed it was done. If I'm to believe Carol, then everything was done BACKWARDS from what I always believed. Studio musicians improvised the sounds that were to become hits, and the tour musicians simply copied them. This is just incredible to me. How could such talented musicians (studio ones) let other musicians take the credit for their work???

 

[jimac51]

The mysteries of the studio musician not only fill a few web site forums but could fill a well-edited book. And,as Ms. Kaye and others lay down their stories,this is how it actually happened. Why? Money was a big factor. By staying anonymous,a musician could play multiple gigs in a day,performing different styles for different venues(commercials,TV & film,demos,etc.) without leaving their base of operations and never being pigeon-holed by the public. As far as I have known,these studio whizzes showed up sober, on time,ready to play at the producers whim-something that a guy like Dennis Wilson(Beach Boys) could never do. While you are exploring the life of the studio musician,you might rent the documentary STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN,the story of the Funk Brothers(both living and dead)who created the Motown sound. Try the 2 disc DVD,its loaded with extra material. Mac

 

[Captaindave]

There is a definite difference in the playing abilities and instrumental skills of your typical rock band musician and a studio/session player.

Most of the session players are among the best in the world on their instruments. Many current studio trumpet players in LA today are among the top trumpet players alive at this time.

Money might be a large issue as well from the record companies' perspective. I am sure that time is money to a record company, and studio time is costly. It is to their advantage to bring in the very best to play the music and get it done in one take and out the door. Too often, that kind of ability and professionalism isn't going to found in the band members that may be used on tour. The problems with the personnel in rock groups is legendary, and the above post suggest one of hundreds of such situations.

If I were running a record company, I wouldn't have the patience and be willing to spend the money wasting time with some of these characters.

 

[manifan]

This is such an interesting thread; so many good thoughts and speculation.

Of course, I am forgetting that this was the 60's, when Ron Dante WAS the Archies and Tony Burrows sang lead for multiple "groups" that never really existed. It almost sounds as if the TJB was a studio group created to back the true star, Herb Alpert. If I understand correctly, this was the typical order of the day. "Dawn" was two studio singers -- NOT Telma Hopkins and Joyce Vincent Wilson, who were to come later -- hired to back Tony Orlando on "Candida." So I suppose it's not that much of a stretch to believe that the TJB was a group of studio musicians, with other players hired later for tours. It's harder to accept this, though, with an ensemble group as I'd believed the TJB was, than with a "lead" singer whose band existed to prop him up. Kinda sad.

 

[Dave]

This is such an interesting thread; so many good thoughts and speculation.

Of course, I am forgetting that this was the 60's, when Ron Dante WAS the Archies and Tony Burrows sang lead for multiple "groups" that never really existed. It almost sounds as if the TJB was a studio group created to back the true star, Herb Alpert. If I understand correctly, this was the typical order of the day. "Dawn" was two studio singers -- NOT Telma Hopkins and Joyce Vincent Wilson, who were to come later -- hired to back Tony Orlando on "Candida." So I suppose it's not that much of a stretch to believe that the TJB was a group of studio musicians, with other players hired later for tours. It's harder to accept this, though, with an ensemble group as I'd believed the TJB was, than with a "lead" singer whose band existed to prop him up. Kinda sad.

OK, now we're getting into "Manufactured Groups"!!! The Monkees and The Partridge Family were mostly made up of studio musicians and on the latter, Studio Singers!!

I even heard Lead Guitar lines on Ventures albums were done by a notable session musician, Jerry McGee, who was a Monkees guitarist, as well.

But, The Tijuana Brass as a "manufactured act"...?

Dave

...wondering now about Sergio Mendes hiring back-up musicians on A&M. Which was BEFORE the Bell period, when they were listed on the back of the albums...

 

[Captaindave]

I don't think of the TJB as a "manufactured act" because they could actually play and were top musicians. In my mind, the discussion is more in regard to who played on the recordings vs who played on the concert stage. In both cases, it was top quality musicians doing the job - whether on stage or in the studio.

Regarding some of th other so-called "groups" - many of these couldn't play their way out of the proverbial paper bag. They had no musical ability, no singing ability, and no instrumental skills - period. It was necessary to "import" some real musicians in order to accomplish the recordings.

I'll refrain from listing any names, but the recordings of some of these so-called "groups" clearly were a product of session players, because there was no actual group to begin with, or whatever group that existed was vocally/instrumentally incompetent, or there was so much unreliability/irresponsibility on behalf of actual members that someone else had to do the job, or the recording would have never occurred.

 

[manifan]

OK, now we're getting into "Manufactured Groups"!!! The Monkees and The Partridge Family were mostly made up of studio musicians and on the latter, Studio Singers!!

I even heard Lead Guitar lines on Ventures albums were done by a notable session musician, Jerry McGee, who was a Monkees guitarist, as well.

But, The Tijuana Brass as a "manufactured act"...?

Well, if what Carol says is true, the TJB WAS a manufactured act for the studio. Because what we saw in concert apparently was not what we got on record!

Elena

 

[Mr Bill]

This thread seems top go on ad nauseum. It has been well-documented here and elsewhere that Herb hired whatever musicians were necessary in the studio to arrive at the sound he wanted.

Until the gentlemen we all came to recognize as "The Brass" were hired (in time to appear on the back of the TJB's fifth album) for touring purposes Herb was already a million-selling artist. It was Herb's musical vision we were hearing, appreciating and buying...

Tonni Kalash, Herb's buddy from his Army days, served strictly on tour. Lou Pagani did some studio work but was largely on tours only. Everyone else was involved in some or many sessions, often as early as Volume 2. Pianists included Leon Russell and Pete Jolly. Bassists Pat Senatore and Carol Kaye. Drummers Nick Ceroli and Hal Blaine, guitarists John Pisano and Tommy Tedesco. I'm sure there are countless others. Pete Jolly and Hal Blaine declined to become TJB members because they had more work and more inclme as top-notch studio guys. Leon Russell became his own star.

We could go on forever. Hopefully the reissues (if they ever come) will give us key musician credits. Heck Herb's solo,stuff is technically TJB material -- only now we get musician credits. It doesn't mattter -- it's a Herb Alpert recording/production!

--Mr Bill

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Pat Senatore, the original bassist in the Tijuana Brass talked about this in 1999. He said that the first few albums had studio musicians who included Carol Kaye, Julius Wechter, and Hal Blaine (no mention of Ollie Mitchel). According to Senatore, for the second trumpet part, Alpert would pull the tuner out of his horn so as to get a high pitch and make the two trumpets have an authentic mariachi sound. When the group was formed in '65, they were the only ones utilized in the studio with the exception of extra percussion parts, in which other musicians were in fact utilized.

See www.members.aol.com/lanesong/HERBALPE.HTM. Click on "Pat Senatore Interview". (It's in two parts).

Sadly, this link is no longer active; because of the death of its founder, the late Wendell Johnson...

But, the gist of this interview, as the author of the post has stated is that the TJB was ANYTHING but a "manufactured group". Herb didn't even form a working act until 1965...so the first few albums were done by studio musicians by default. And, once the band was formed, THEY did the bulk of the playing on the albums. Senatore said so...and I believe him, because he should know!

There was no way anybody could know whether or not the TJB would fly back in the early '60's...so there was little need to form a group. But, as popularity grew, so did the demand for an act. And, it evolved over time, and some group members had other committments while the Brass was becoming an act, and probably were too busy to do much in the studio for GOING PLACES. The final group wasn't even set until the album was partially recorded...Nick Ceroli was the last member cast, as I recall.

No Spinal Tap here, guys...



Dan

 

[Captaindave]

As far as I am concerned at this time, Herb Alpert and the TJB is a musical sound and style, with certain identifiable songs, more so that an specific group, although I did connect the specific group to the recordings. With the Going Places album, Herb did give a public identity to what Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass might be; i.e. who they were, what they looked like, etc. He gave the name a face, so to speak. And, from that face, an assumption has arisen that those faces and the players on the recordings were one and the same. At least that is what I always thought until recent times.

But, after consideration, it doesn't really matter. I agree that the TJB is really a musical idea and sound, and Herb could have had different players on each album and no one would have ever known the difference. All the musicians that he has worked with are/were outstanding players who could have translated the idea and sound that Herb created into music.

I think if Herb re-recorded all those 1960s albums today, they could be made to sound the same as the originals, as far as the sound the musicians could create in the studio is concerned. They would simply record the desired sound, as it is the SOUND that is the key to the TJB. It is the sound and style and arrangements and instrumentation that you hear. ANY outstanding players could play the notes...and with the ability of studio players to adapt to the requirements of the session, any of those recordings could be duplicated accurately today.