Not Herb?

[stolfstolf]

found a dis group called spectropop from late 90's where
carol kaye sez ollie mitchell told her he recorded ALL
herb's trumpet solos...."all, from the lonely bull on"...
doesn't sound kosher to me...anybody know what's up?
---stolf---

 

[alpertfan]

Carol Kaye played on the first four albums before the group was actually formed, so why she would say that baffles me.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

found a dis group called spectropop from late 90's where
carol kaye sez ollie mitchell told her he recorded ALL
herb's trumpet solos...."all, from the lonely bull on"...
doesn't sound kosher to me...anybody know what's up?
---stolf---

Sounds like somebody is trying to gain a little glory for himself. Reminds me of when drummer Bernard Purdie claimed he did the drumming on a lot of Beatles tracks, which came as quite a surprise to producer George Martin, who doesn't recall Purdie on anything the Beatles did.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Steven J. Gross]

found a dis group called spectropop from late 90's where
carol kaye sez ollie mitchell told her he recorded ALL
herb's trumpet solos...."all, from the lonely bull on"...
doesn't sound kosher to me...anybody know what's up?
---stolf---

Where, in his living room?

 

[stolfstolf]

recall reading somewhere that Herb Alpert sometimes used a >different trumpet player on some of his peak era TJ Brass >productions. Did you ever hear anything about that, Carol?

TRUE. We all knew it was Ollie Mitchell, fine #1 call trumpet man who did the most technical Herb Alpert solos, and when I asked Ollie (just before he moved back to Hawaii about 1996) "did you do 'all' of Herb's recorded solos or just some of them Ollie" -- he answered "all, from the Lonely Bull on". Now, I don't know if he literally meant "every single one" as we all have a habit of saying "all" meaning "all the important ones", so not sure if he meant "all" or "most" by that, but he sure had that sound down pat.

Herb's a nice man, I don't want to take anything away from him, but too many times, the instrumentalists had others doing their solos for them. Herb's forte I think was in producing, and there's no harm done, he did go on the road, but Roy Caton and others were there to "beef" up the trumpet solos for sure on the road.

http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m237.html

there's some other stuff too but this is the gist of it...
pretty weird, no?... ---stolf---

 

[Greg Shannon]

Ollie also wrote all of Shakespeare's plays . . .

Greg Shannon
8)

 

[Dave]

I'm sure HERB did do all his OWN trumpet solos. I think there are just a lot of people who think because there names weren't on the backs of LP's before Session Credits were finally printed there, that they could lay claim to being on them. This is just happening with the early stuff, right? Nobody's claiming they did the "solos" on RISE or BLOW YOUR OWN HORN, for example.

I think most of these rumors are spread through other people, anyway. Much of these studio musicians were too busy doing legitimate musical outings--I'm sure as much as anyone admired who they generally work for, or could have, they themselves aren't that dishonest that they would take credit like that.

'Course that The Beach Boys PET SOUNDS was done with Studio Musicians (besides String Sections & Horn Sections added) suprised me, but that explains why there was a MAKINGS OF Boxed-Set. I'm sure there could be a lot of "Makings Of" sets out there of anything on this topic-- if people other than the REAL Artist or Group were THAT MUCH involved. Then again, ANYONE making an album could be running the tape machine during every minute that they were in the studio.

Dave

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Hmm, maybe this is why no remasters. Shades of Milli Vanilli.

KIDDING, Herb, KIDDING! Please put those records out!

 

[Rudy]

Ollie also wrote all of Shakespeare's plays . . .

Greg Shannon
8)

Next you'll be telling me Ollie also played all the instruments in The Monkees!

 

[Rudy]

http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m237.html

Interesting reading--there's also some discussion about Burt's box set. Small world, too. Marc Wielage's name shows up in that digest. Knew him years ago from Compuserve. He was also a video engineer too--had his name in the credits of a few video transfers. Paul Urbahns I also recognize, as I've run into him very recently on another forum I frequent. IOW, this is not a typical hit-and-run mailing list.

I will say one thing about the solos, though--I thought Herb's trumpet soloing was different starting with the Herb Alpert/Hugh Masekela, and I hear a few of these similar patterns in his present day soloing as well. Maybe it's possible someone did take over a few of his solos on those earlier albums.

 

[stolfstolf]

some interesting comments on trumpet players over in the
poll on best herb composition....and bear in mind, carol is talking
about SOLOS, which are just the cherry on the frosting on the
cake with TjB arrangements...herb obviously played the bulk of
of the horn stuff on record, as he did in concert...

i recently listened to the megamix i did a couple years ago
combining the mono & stereo solos from crayfish...it sounded
better than i remembered quite frankly (a little phasing...)
but also the solo is a lot shorter than i remembered...

bottom line: why was herb the rich famous star and ollie
the annonymous studio player?...takes more than chops
to make good records...i'll take herb...---stolf---

 

[thetijuanataxi]

If He's talking about things like the high note at the beginning of "Slick" then maybe. Solos on "The Lonely Bull"? Where? The only 2 tracks that have any soloing are "Desifinado" and "Crawfish" and they both sure sound like Herb to me. As far as other musicians "beefing" up the sound at the concerts, other than one Hollywood Palace appearance, Tonni Kalash was to my Knowledge the only trumpeter that toured with Herb during the TJB days and it would be impossible to get the TJB trumpet sound without a 2nd trumpeter at the concerts. There wasn't anything on those records that Tonni couldn't handle, so if Herb needed occasional help on the records, then why wouldn't he have used Tonni? I wish Herb would finally set us straight on who did what on the TJB recordings so we wouldn't have to speculate or be hit with claims that just don't make sense.

David,
thinking that if he were alive, Chet Baker might also lay claim to Herb's music...............

 

[Mr Bill]

Let's also remember that Herb would record all the instruments first and then add his trumpet part(s) after. So maybe Ollie saw he was the only trumpet player in those sessions, not realizing that Herb would overdub his (Herb's) own trumpet parts after the studio guys were likely at home for the day. Along the same lines, Herb may have even had Ollie lay a solo simply for reference purposes, to make the later overdub easier to "match up."

--Mr Bill

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Let's also remember that Herb would record all the instruments first and then add his trumpet part(s) after. So maybe Ollie saw he was the only trumpet player in those sessions, not realizing that Herb would overdub his (Herb's) own trumpet parts after the studio guys were likely at home for the day. Along the same lines, Herb may have even had Ollie lay a solo simply for reference purposes, to make the later overdub easier to "match up."

That's a pretty good suggestion. It makes more sense than just saying that Mitchell was the trumpet player on the records. Otherwise, I'd say that Mitchell was full of sh**! I've mentioned in the past that I put together a CD-R compilation of the jazz/jazzy TJB tunes, and as far as the solos go, it's very clear that it's Herb doing them. The only possible argument would be the solo on "Crawfish", and then just the stereo version (the mono version is a completely different solo, and is clearly Herb). We're also getting this as second- and third-hand information.

It also seems that if this claim were completely true, then this probably would've come out back in the 60's instead of 40 years later. This tends to sound a bit like sour grapes IMHO.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Rudy]

I read more of the Spectropop archives, and it makes more sense when the discussions are taken in context. Back then, session musicians were the paid, uncredited, hard working talent that made a lot of those 60's records, and if they were called upon to copy someone's style, and record in their place, they just went ahead and did it...no ego involved. It was just a good-paying studio job. They played the gig, then collected the money. They weren't into the ego-driven "we want to be a star" Hollywood-isms that other more famous performers would suffer from. Far from it--they were paid to do what they enjoyed, making music. If they were called on to substitute for a performer, they learned the part and played it. And to be more specific, if Herb Alpert felt that he could not play the best trumpet on his recording, he likely would call someone else to sit in. Point is, if Ollie Mitchell did play on some of those recordings, it would have been Herb himself who called him for the job!

What about the actual music, though? There's no doubt that Herb played on most of his recordings, but it's also possible Ollie Mitchell took some of the improvised solos. Way back before the Tijuana Brass began recording (OK, Herb in his garage with a Lonely Bull by its horns, no pun intended), I read (or heard in an interview) he'd considered being a jazz musician, but just couldn't find his own unique voice. Now we have word about Mitchell substituting Herb on some Tijuana Brass recordings (his claim may be exaggerated, true, but we don't really know). Then IMHO, Herb's improvised soloing style took a turn when he recorded his solo albums. Somewhat with Just You and Me, but more so with the Masekela albums. Forget the first couple of albums--I doubt Mitchell would have played on those; the TJB was still finding its voice then, and I doubt there would have been the funds to cover the expense of a studio full of session musicians, save for the bare essentials of rhythm section. But then again, he very well could have...and there's only one person who could support or refute these claims.

Strange though--the first song that popped into my head is "Our Day Will Come" from S.R.O.. It's a nice little solo. But is it Herb? The sound and style is, but the phrasing? To my ears, this could easily not be a Herb Alpert solo. (The Captain may have a better feel for what I'm getting at...or anyone else lurking who's played jazz.) Listen to this solo, and compare to the brief solo in "Beyond" which has a lot of his trademark solo phrasings in it. You'll notice how he plays "off the beat" quite a bit in this one, and plays slurred glissandos (?) a few times. He also has a habit of playing repeated triplet figures, and you don't hear that on the TJB solos either. On "Our Day Will Come", a lot of it is played on the beat. The stylings and are similar, but could this be an Ollie and not a Herb? Listen to it a few times and see what you think.

Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate, or maybe not. But I don't think the idea is far fetched. Nobody is saying or HAS said that Herb Alpert never played a note of music on his own recordings. But it's not a stretch of the imagination to say that he could bring in outside assistance when needed for what amounts to "bit parts" such as solos. And I certainly don't fault anyone for doing this if they had to, to make a quality hit recording out of it. That's the way the studio game was played back then.

 

[Mr Bill]

We're also getting this as second- and third-hand information. It also seems that if this claim were...true... this probably would've come out...in the 60's instead of 40 years later...tends to sound...like sour grapes IMHO.

Capt. Bacardi

Thanks for supporting my theory. My theory taken along with the points you made (and quoted here in my post) probably explain the real source to one degree or another. I doubt "sour grapes" as Herb and Ollie have spoken affectionately of each other in almost every written word I've seen regarding their aquaintance. On the other hand it's a known fact that "session-men" can be extremely jealous of other instrumentalists who make a name for themselves. When I met an A&M staff musician and mentioned David Spinozza's just-released solo LP, well, he got a little "ruffled."

I would think that that doesn't aply to Mr Mitchell as well as some other studio session guys -- Mitchell is author of several highly regarded trumpet method books and anyone who was serious about trumpet in highschool form your generation (and mine) knows or knew who he is. Can't say that definitively about today's high school music majors...

--Mr Bill
who knew the names Wechter, Hampton, Tjader (x2), Gibbs and Richards (Emil) by the time he took marimba lessons at age 12...

 

[Rudy]

Another bit from Spectropop, Carol Kaye again:

I recorded for Herb Alpert who formed A&M after he left
Bumps Blackwell and all at Keen Records (where I first met
Herb late 50s and even played a bar mitzvah with him in a
"jazz" band about 1958.....more on that later).

He was a very nice aware person, sort of upper
middle-class I think. He played some nice trumpet, nothing
too special. That's mostly Ollie Mitchell who did the Herb
Alpert solos on recordings. The "vibe", Jamie, was always
very NICE...Herb Alpert was just terrific in producing,
had great ideas, and treated the musicians with great
respect, was great to work for. His forte was in producing,
and creating music styles I tho't.

A&M later bought the former Chaplin studios, had engineer
Larry Levine update and design the two big studios and
rooms, and that became "A&M Records" but Herb exclusively
recorded at Gold Star Records for his first batch of big
hit in the 60s. Then we all recorded at A&M fine studios
and the dates were always very pleasant.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Another bit from Spectropop, Carol Kaye again:

I recorded for Herb Alpert who formed A&M after he left
Bumps Blackwell and all at Keen Records (where I first met
Herb late 50s and even played a bar mitzvah with him in a
"jazz" band about 1958.....more on that later).

He was a very nice aware person, sort of upper
middle-class I think. He played some nice trumpet, nothing
too special. That's mostly Ollie Mitchell who did the Herb
Alpert solos on recordings. The "vibe", Jamie, was always
very NICE...Herb Alpert was just terrific in producing,
had great ideas, and treated the musicians with great
respect, was great to work for. His forte was in producing,
and creating music styles I tho't.

A&M later bought the former Chaplin studios, had engineer
Larry Levine update and design the two big studios and
rooms, and that became "A&M Records" but Herb exclusively
recorded at Gold Star Records for his first batch of big
hit in the 60s. Then we all recorded at A&M fine studios
and the dates were always very pleasant.

Well, I guess that settles that...it's kinda like finding out that there's no Santa Claus, though. I wonder about some other albums, like Lucille Starr's, and some of those Waylon Jennings cuts...did Ollie do those, as well? If he didn't, he sure had Herb's style and technique down on the things he DID adlib on...

Dan

 

[stolfstolf]

yeah well i still haven't gotten over finding out tonni
was just a roadie, and on record herb played with herb...
er...ollie....er somebody....---stolf---

 

[Rudy]

Well, I guess that settles that...it's kinda like finding out that there's no Santa Claus, though. I wonder about some other albums, like Lucille Starr's, and some of those Waylon Jennings cuts...did Ollie do those, as well? If he didn't, he sure had Herb's style and technique down on the things he DID adlib on...

I think if it was an improvised solo, it sounds like he had Ollie Mitchell cut those parts for him. As for a trumpet accompaniment on other tracks, though, there's no reason he would have called in someone for what was essentially just "ear candy." Although one could argue that when the TJB was busy touring a couple years later, a Herb-alike could have been called in to record those trumpet parts.

I think it would be different if we all found out that Herb didn't play one single note on any of his albums, but basically what's being said is that the improvised solos were Ollie's. And I can buy that.

 

[Dave]

OK, here are some artists' LP's I have that Ollie Mitchell DID appear on:

Bob Thiele & His New Happy Times Orchestra -- LIGHT MY FIRE (featuring Gabor Szabo & Tom Scott)

The 5th Dimension -- LIVING TOGETHER, GROWING TOGETHER

Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds -- Their Self-Titled Debut Album and HALLWAY SYMPHONY

Robin Wilson -- Ain't That Somethin' (as "The Ollie Mitchell Brass")

Vikki Carr -- MISS AMERICA

And various LP's by The Partridge Family

And on Chelsea Records (another label I collect):

Lulu -- Marjoe Goutrner -- Johnny Whittaker (from FAMILY AFFAIR but the LP features Music From SIGMUND AND THE SEA MONSTERS) -- Austin Roberts and Wayne Newton.

Oh, and Barbara Streisand, too!

I'm sure there are more, but even if these were the ONLY ones, wouldn't they have been ENOUGH??!! :twitchy:

Dave

...making Ollie 'The Good Guy', online...

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Well, I guess that settles that...it's kinda like finding out that there's no Santa Claus, though. I wonder about some other albums, like Lucille Starr's, and some of those Waylon Jennings cuts...did Ollie do those, as well? If he didn't, he sure had Herb's style and technique down on the things he DID adlib on...

I think if it was an improvised solo, it sounds like he had Ollie Mitchell cut those parts for him. As for a trumpet accompaniment on other tracks, though, there's no reason he would have called in someone for what was essentially just "ear candy." Although one could argue that when the TJB was busy touring a couple years later, a Herb-alike could have been called in to record those trumpet parts.

I think it would be different if we all found out that Herb didn't play one single note on any of his albums, but basically what's being said is that the improvised solos were Ollie's. And I can buy that.

What you say makes sense...especially after the Brass became a touring group and there were so many more demands on Herb's time...and I can buy that...I just wonder if Ollie was responsible for the ATOH solo, and the LOLLIPOPS AND ROSES solo...they were my favorites, and I always attributed them to Herb.

I guess even Santa has to take a rest once in awhile...


Dan

 

[Captaindave]

You never know what might happen...

1.Ollie Mitchell was one of the top session/studio players in LA in days gone by. Trumpet players who get called to do this type of work are uniformly outstanding, super proficient players who can play anything, and I mean ANYTHING. They are technically the most proficient and have the best minds, as they must play everything right the first time, as time is money in the studio and there is very little margin for error.

One thing that these players must be able to do is to create whatever sound they are called on to make. If it's a TJB session, they must be able to play that style and sound convincingly. And then be able to do a soundtrack or play behind any other type of session and adjust to the demands of that style and sound just as easily. And it must be absolutely convincing. I have read several interviews with session players where the ability to do whatever the music calls for is an important part of the job.

2. I also thought at one time that Tonni Kalash had more of a role to play in the recordings, but apparently he was strictly a sideman for the live concert circuit, and did little else.

3. The high note at the beginning of Slick is a D just above high C (for the non trumpet or music theory person, high C on the trumpet is 2 ledger lines above the treble staff). That is no big deal for an accomplished trumpet player. I am very sure that Herb could have played that note with no problem. Or any other session player who might have been available to put it on the track. Today, there are many professional trumpet players whose range extends to an octave or even two octaves beyond high C - what is called double or triple high C, so the range of notes on TJB recordings are no sweat at all to that kind of player...

I, myself, can play that intro note on Slick easily, so I know any of the pros could also...

This is all very interesting. I wish some further information might surface...

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Come on guys. I think there is a little fishiness or perhaps loss of memory to this story. Perhaps Ollie Mitchell sat in on the early BMB sessions where ther were a lot of distinct trumpet solos. Herb may not have specified which sessions were "TJB" sessions and which were "BMB" sessions and with many of the musicians playing in both bands, Ollie may not have really known which band was being recorded. Heck, I'd bet that Herb himself was unsure about which band the song would be released under until he listened to the finished product. As for "Our Day Will Come" solo, I will tell you as a trumpet player myself, that there is nothing technical or difficult about it. Heck I just played it after not playing my horn for 4 days! I can't believe that Herb would need Ollie for that solo. Especially when you consider that the second trumpet parts for "El Garbanzo" and the bridges "Tijuana Taxi" are more challenging. ODWC only goes up to B flat above the staff on trumpet. EG goes up to a C# and TT to a C. Herb Alpert has stated that he did all the trumpet parts on the TJB records. Now we know rhat there was an orchestra on "Casino Royale" and maybe the high trumpet there is Ollie. Also on "Sunny", "Moon River" and Zazueira" there are obvious orchestral fills that might have featured Ollie on trumpet. But I'd really be shocked if the rest of the trumpets were not Herb. Also, remember how Herb feels about others copying his sound. It would be hypocritical of him to have fake "Herb Alperts" playing on his records when he clearly disdains the practice. Besides much of Herb's solo work is more challenging and demanding than the TJB material. Did he suddenly just get good? I don't buy it. There is inaccuracy somewhere.

David,
wondering if it was really Louis Armstrong playing on "Hello Dolly"....

 

[Captaindave]

Yeah, I tend to agree with the above post as to the technical difficulty of TJB trumpet playing... It simply isn't very challenging to an accomplished player, and I think Herb probably was plenty skilled enough to have played any/all of the songs.

I can't see any reason why Herb Alpert would need to call in any session player to perform any of the parts on the basic TJB songs.

I do think that the high note lick on Casino Royale was performed by someone else. Somewhere I heard it may have been Bud Brisbois. Also the licks in Zazueria that were mentioned above. I can't recall what kind of lines are in the other songs mentioned.

These kind of lines would have been session players doing the orchestral accompaniment on those particular recordings.

I have heard the TJB in concert and I can tell you that Herb and Tonni played the parts that you hear on the recordings - the basic trumpet lines in the songs(not the orchestral accompaniment).