questions about "Ave Maria"

[Marty TX]

I know its summer, but I was wondering if anyone could answer some questions about one of my favorite Carpenter Christmas recordings, "Ave Maria."

To me, the original release of Ave Maria on the Christmas Portrait album is far superior to the remixes done for the "special edition" and the box set. In the mixes, Karen's voice is louder and has more reverb. Adding the choral parts heightens the volume and drama as the song crescendos to its climax - in some ways, a totally different effect than the intimate version first heard on the LP. I don't know who arranged the accompaniment, but it is a fantastic orchestration. The beautiful cello lines and some of the harp stuff is wiped out in the remixes. Thank heavens I have an MP3 of the original from a German CD release of Christmas Portrait (emailed to me by Anneloes from the old board). I only have Ave Maria, so I have no idea what other songs from the album were tampered with (as I no longer have my LP to compare it to) for later release.

Is the original Christmas Portrait available on CD anymore, anywhere? Also, Richard mentions in his album notes that "an editing error in the lead vocal [was] fixed." Has anyone detected what this is? Did Richard play keyboards, do you think, in the orchestral accompaniments on that album (other than Carol of the Bells)? Richard says he had so little to do with Christmas Portrait, other than production, that I have to wonder.

I think the Christmas albums are probably my favorite Carpenters recordings of all.

 

[350hunny]

an editing error in the lead vocal [was] fixed

I think this means that he put it back to the normal speed as the version included in the From The Top boxset had been sped up by a certain engineer by mistake and later that was found after its release.

Compare the vocals with each other and you'll know the difference.
Karen sounds funny in a higher voice in the boxset version.
I was surprised to know that as I thought Richard would always check on everything he was going to put out. Maybe too much trust on the engineer.

It was good for him too to put it back as it should be.

The choral parts were originally in his masterplan but misplaced by accident and found after its release.
I enjoy both versions as I'm a remix person so I'm glad there are different cuts.
I think the solo version from the Portrait sounds really personal while the revamped version has a different appeal.
To me, it's like Make Believe Your Firsttime from Lovelines and from Voice Of The Heart. Can't decide which is better or worse.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Marty, I remember anneloes from Ran's old board, wow that seems like the old times. lol

The only way to obtain Ave Maria without the choral and better yet in digital format is to find the German Pressing of Christmas Portrait on CD. I found one just recently on ebay from the Netherlands, paid about $30.00 US including shipping charges. I really lucked out because my first copy cost me $90.00 from ebay. Keep a look out on ebay cause it shows up every now and then (pun intended) do a search for "Christmas Portrait" with those words and look for this description:

CARPENTERS-Christmas Portrait-CD
Released by: A & M (Germany,1978)
Catalogus#: 394 726-2


This CD has become the standard for me and I love it, even though I have "ALL" the other christmas CD's including compilations from Readers Digest, I always come back to this original german pressing of Christmas Portrait CD.

..who wonders how many were actually pressed of this rare cd...

 

[Harry]

Anneloes, from the Netherlands, registered here a long time ago, but has never posted. As I recall, she was a student at a university - perhaps she's gotten on with "real life."

According to Richard's notes in the 35th Box Set from Japan, the original masters from CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT have deteriorated, which is why he utilized the remixes on that set. Sad - as I agree with Chris, that the original LP mix is the only way to go. And the only digital version of that mix that we know of was that German CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT.

I recall getting the expanded CD when it was released back in the mid-80's. That season, there was an article in a trade magazine reviewing the new expanded CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT. I remember the reviewer claiming that the reason the choir was added to "Ave Maria" was an attempt to cover up a flaw in the lead-vocal master. we've since learned from Richard that the choir part was supposed to be there all along, but like others, I've grown fond of hearing it without the extra "clutter."

Harry

 

[Marty TX]

Thanks so much, everyone, for the information. I had no idea Ave Maria was sped up on From the Top. I just pulled it out, and man, what a difference.

I do remember that at the end of White Christmas, the original album ended with the same electric piano that Ave Maria started with. Later, in some other version, it was changed to regular piano with a bleed into the electric piano. I just read someplace that Richard regretted using synthesizer in A Kind of Hush, though I can barely hear it. Why then, did he use that electric piano so much? For me, its just as electronically bad, but a Carpenters signature sound. (not that anyone asked my opinion!).

And now I have something "new" to look for on Ebay! Thanks, Chris.

 

[Marty TX]

You're all probably tired of this question, but after going through old posts, I never saw an answer that satisfies me. Some nice person just posted the Christmas Portrait audio interview with Karen on YouTube. I had only read the transcripts, but now that I hear it, I'm confused about what Karen had to say regarding the "cut" of Schubert's Ave Maria. She says they cut both version, then only had time to cut one of them. Does anyone think there's an orchestrated accompaniment that they never put a vocal to? I guess this is neither here nor there, I'd just like to know!

Karen:

"...and we had them both cut.. when it came down to the last choice, we didn't have any more time to cut the other one......."

 

[Harry]

There are two popular "Ave Maria's" out there, the Schubert and the Bach-Gunod. The Carpenters had trouble deciding which one to use on the album, probably recorded work leads for both and ultimately decided on the Bach-Gunod. So that likely means there's a recorded lead of the other "Ave Maria" (Schubert) for future release consideration.

Harry

[edited to correct the information]

 

[Dave]

Shubert's "Ave..." has been most popular... --Covered by Eumir Deodato AND Andy Williams AND Johnny Mathis AND Gladys Knight & The Pips (who also did the Bach-version, too); --among countless others...!

Wonder, too, why a lot of people seem so inclined to asscoiate it w/ Christmas... (Virgin Mary, perhaps, being most-likely...)



Dave

 

[Mike Blakesley]

There are lots of "Christmas" songs that have absolutely nothing to do with Christmas. (Winter Wonderland, Sleigh Ride, Jingle Bells, My Favorite Things, the list goes on.) They're "winter" songs. Not that there's anything wrong with that...they're still great songs!

 

[Dave]

Yes, "Winter Songs" are just as much "Seasonal Favorites", I agree...

I find myself playing a LOT of songs "that time o' year" that probably have nothing to even do with Winter; they're fun to "watch the snow fall" by...!

Here then, are some of my "Winter Favorites"...:


Winter Has Me In Its Grip -- Don McLean

Urge For Going -- Tom Rush

Some Gospel, According To Matthew -- Roberta Flack

Scarborough Fair -- Simon & Garfunkel

Holly On My Mind -- John Stewart & Buffy Ford


--Or at least "Non-Christmas Christmas Songs"...; MY List goes on-and-on...!



Dave

 

[Harry]

 

[Dave]

Dave

 

[Marty TX]

I know both Ave Marias well, and if you're a Disney fan, Schubert's composition is the final segment of the original Fantasia. Not sure if you know, but the Bach version is just a keyboard exercise (Number One, I believe from the Well-Tempered Clavier) that the French composer Gounod wrote the song on top of. No wonder Richard liked it better, I'm sure he played the Bach keyboard pieces often.

I digress! So, you really think she recorded the lead for the Schubert version? WOW! If so, it would be fantastic to hear. It's also difficult to sing.

 

[newvillefan]

So, you really think she recorded the lead for the Schubert version? WOW! If so, it would be fantastic to hear

I've always been convinced of this. I think we should ask Richard on the Fans Ask section of his site, because both he and Karen (during her lifetime) have said categorically that they cut both versions and ended up plumping for the one they did.

Imagine if that came out on Richard's new Christmas album as a special surprise!

Stephen

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Here is another bit of info from the official site, thought this was interesting considering we are talking about Ave Maria. I think I even have the recorded funeral service on CD that a fan recorded that was nearby the service, I should find it and see if I can hear what Richard did with transpose he refers to below.

Q: “At Karen's funeral there was an anthem sung called "Give Me Jesus" arranged by Fleming. Who was the author of the song and is there a score of the arrangement?”

Richard “The song ‘Give Me Jesus’ was written by Larry Fleming (now deceased) and published by Augsburg Fortress, Minneapolis, MN. CSULB has a score in their music department library. Frank Pooler at CSULB called two nights before the funeral, and asked if we would like the choir to sing, and suggested this and others. In addition, I got a chart of “Ave Maria” from our Christmas album and transposed it, and our pal Dennis Heath sang. It was quite a moving experience.”


I agree Stephen, someone should write about the other version and maybe he might release it in the future if it does contain a lead by Karen, Richard can perform miracles in the studio.

 

[Bruno]

Hi Harry!

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but did you write, that the Carpenter's version of AVE MARIA is Schubert's? Because it is not. The AVE MARIA, which is featured on CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT, is the version by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Bruno

 

[Harry]

Hi Harry!

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but did you write, that the Carpenter's version of AVE MARIA is Schubert's? Because it is not. The AVE MARIA, which is featured on CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT, is the version by Johann Sebastian Bach.

Bruno

Looks like I got the two "Ave Maria's" a$$-BACHwards! I'll go edit my post so future searchers won't get confused.

Thanks for catching that. Whichever one they didn't put on the record is the one I suspect that there is at least a demo-lead vocal that Richard could use someday.

Harry