Questions About the KC Solo Album Songs Played for the A&M Executives

[Mark-T]

So, all this talk about Karen's solo album had me thinking...

When the playback for the A&M executives and Richard happened, was the material presented the album that was eventually delivered? (Sans Last One Singin' the Blues.) Or were there different songs originally, and that's when she was asked to keep recording?

In listening to her album for the last week, I think that the final song selections were actually the best of the bunch and make a most consistent sounding album.

(Not intending to get into a "who stopped the album or the quality of the album" conversation here.)

 

[Harry]

Richard's words from the liner notes:

"As such, it deserves to be heard, in its entirety, as originally delivered...plus one bonus track."

Phil Ramone's words from the liner notes:

"I have not remixed or done anything to the tapes. These mixes, the material and style are the way Karen approved them. The bonus track is unmixed and was one of several that might have been finished."

That would be all I have to go on, and I have no reason not to believe them.

And I would tend to agree, Mark - the tracks chose were the likely the best of the larger lot that we've all heard.

 

[newvillefan]

This is the chapter of their musical history that is mired in the most dispute. That is a fact. Herb Alpert changed his story once or twice, to say the least. There is no official line because so many people on the inner circle, so heavily involved with this project, changed their story so many times. That’s also a fact. That’s all I’ll say. Why Quincy Jones has never gone on record mystifies me. Maybe it was out of respect for Phil Ramone.

 

[1969]

In listening to her album for the last week, I think that the final song selections were actually the best of the bunch and make a most consistent sounding album.

Her solo tracks are strange. You may not like them on initial listen. But with each play, you find yourself liking the songs and then maybe loving them. I've been listening to her unreleased solo tracks plus the ones Richard tinkered with on a loop for the past month. I would've swapped out the Javors tunes with 2 from the unreleased tracks that are easily far better. At least, that's my view.

Why Quincy Jones has never gone on record mystifies me. Maybe it was out of respect for Phil Ramone.

Does a Quincy Jones mix actually exist of her solo album?

 

[tomswift2002]

So, all this talk about Karen's solo album had me thinking...

When the playback for the A&M executives and Richard happened, was the material presented the album that was eventually delivered? (Sans Last One Singin' the Blues.) Or were there different songs originally, and that's when she was asked to keep recording?

In listening to her album for the last week, I think that the final song selections were actually the best of the bunch and make a most consistent sounding album.

(Not intending to get into a "who stopped the album or the quality of the album" conversation here.)

There were two playbacks, (three if you count the New York one for the New York heads, who approved the version without) one without “Lovelines” and then the final with “Lovelines”, since at the first one it was thought that whatever opened the album wasn’t strong enough (considering that “Don’t Try To Win Me Back” and “Love Makin’ Love To You” are completed tracks, could one of those have been the origInal opener?), so “Lovelines “ was recorded in January-February 1980.

 

[newvillefan]

whatever opened the album wasn’t strong enough (considering that “Don’t Try To Win Me Back” and “Love Makin’ Love To You” are completed tracks, could one of those have been the origInal opener?),

I know the solo album crops up in threads occasionally and we’ve done this before, but this would have been my final tracklist. The original running order was a mess stylistically and shouldn’t have included the awful “All Because Of You”, which just goes nowhere.

Lovelines
Make Believe It’s Your First Time
If I Had You
Makin’ Love In The Afternoon
Still Crazy After All These Years

Still In Love With You
My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
Love Makin’ Love To You
Guess I Just Lost My Head
If We Try
Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night

 

[Chris May]

The album with which we are all familiar today is the album the executives, Richard, and Quincy all heard in 1980. Richard was given a private playback of the album by Karen before it was taken to the upper brass.

Richard's biggest gripe with the whole thing was that Phil and Karen opted to overdub all of the four-part, close harmony. The whole point of the solo album was to make it a complete departure from the traditional "Carpenters" sound. And I think most with an educated ear and knowledge of Karen's personal and professional history will tell you that much of what she picked and the way she sang it was a bit copied, and should I say, contrived at times. She was trying to emulate the people in the business she admired, rather than stick with her true self.

This doesn't for one second mean that she couldn't be herself and find her own without Richard. Suffice to say, had Karen gotten healthy first, I can almost guarantee we would have had an entirely different solo album, and possibly more in the years to follow had she lived.

 

[Mark-T]

Thank you for answering my questions, @Chris May.

 

[newvillefan]

Richard's biggest gripe with the whole thing was that Phil and Karen opted to overdub all of the four-part, close harmony. The whole point of the solo album was to make it a complete departure from the traditional 'Carpenters' sound.

Admittedly yes, but what Karen did differently was all the jazz-inflected harmonies, thanks to the influence of Rod Temperton and Bob James. I’ve never heard those on any Carpenters albums. Thinking about tracks like “If We Try”, “Still Crazy” and “If I Had You”. Those tracks were really ambitious and a departure from the Carpenters’ sound. She should have stuck to an album of material more like that than what she ultimately chose.

 

[Chris May]

Admittedly yes, but what Karen did differently was all the jazz-inflected harmonies, thanks to the influence of Rod Temperton and Bob James. I’ve never heard those on any Carpenters albums. Thinking about tracks like “If We Try”, “Still Crazy” and “If I Had You”. Those tracks were really ambitious and a departure from the Carpenters’ sound. She should have stuck to an album of material more like that than what she ultimately chose.

Agreed. But had she never learned or been exposed to the technique in general (regardless of the chord voicings), I'd bet a year's salary she never would have done an album like this.

 

[JohnFB]

...And I think most with an educated ear and knowledge of Karen's personal and professional history will tell you that much of what she picked and the way she sang it was a bit copied, and should I say, contrived at times. She was trying to emulate the people in the business she admired, rather than stick with her true self.

Listening to the tracks that's reasonable to accept as a likely explanation (at least partially) for the album's quality, or lack thereof...if true, what was she thinking? Was she just weary of being celebrated as the best singer ever in the history of Pop/Rock music and wanted to show she could be as mediocre as everyone else? Malnutrition was taking its toll on more than just her body...

This doesn't for one second mean that she couldn't be herself and find her own without Richard. Suffice to say, had Karen gotten healthy first, I can almost guarantee we would have had an entirely different solo album, and possibly more in the years to follow had she lived.

That it wasn't a different, better album and especially that she didn't record tons more great songs is for her - and for us - one of the worst tragedies of her story.

 

[JohnFB]

Admittedly yes, but what Karen did differently was all the jazz-inflected harmonies, thanks to the influence of Rod Temperton and Bob James. I’ve never heard those on any Carpenters albums. Thinking about tracks like “If We Try”, “Still Crazy” and “If I Had You”. Those tracks were really ambitious and a departure from the Carpenters’ sound. She should have stuck to an album of material more like that than what she ultimately chose.

YES!!!

She sounded as wonderful on IF WE TRY (for example) as she had earlier on THIS MASQUERADE or A SONG FOR YOU or ORDINARY FOOL - it was all the same style of music! She was friggin' born to sing it!

 

[newvillefan]

Was she just weary of being celebrated as the best singer ever in the history of Pop/Rock music and wanted to show she could be as mediocre as everyone else? Malnutrition was taking its toll on more than just her body...

Quite possibly. Look what Olivia turned out after Grease. Totally Hot. She didn’t have anyone new in her ear forcing her down that direction. It was something she instinctively chose.

 

[Murray]

Agreed. But had she never learned or been exposed to the technique in general (regardless of the chord voicings), I'd bet a year's salary she never would have done an album like this.

It could also be argued, that if young Richard had never been exposed to the recordings of Les Paul and Mary Ford, the "Carpenters sound" as we know it would likely never have existed.

 

[JohnFB]

Agreed. But had she never learned or been exposed to the technique in general (regardless of the chord voicings), I'd bet a year's salary she never would have done an album like this.

I think maybe she had - all those records they listened to in their basement for all those years while growing up - they contained every kind & genre of music under the sun - no one in Pop or Rock music knew more about the history or diverse content of music in America than the Carps - they knew it all & could do it all - Karen even sang some Schubert & Beethoven songs in college...

 

[Randy M]

I tried really hard to like that album. I finally tossed it during my big purge when I moved. All Because of You sounds like Karen is just too tired out to sing it.

 

[Nemily]

Her solo tracks are strange. You may not like them on initial listen. But with each play, you find yourself liking the songs and then maybe loving them. I've been listening to her unreleased solo tracks plus the ones Richard tinkered with on a loop for the past month. I would've swapped out the Javors tunes with 2 from the unreleased tracks that are easily far better. At least, that's my view.

I agree, and If We Try is one of my favorite songs. To your second point, and aside from the excellent insight Chris May provides in this thread, there is one question to me that begs to be answered…how did two songs by Russell Javors, even get be options for Karen's album.

Of course, he is a brilliant and accomplished musician in his own right, however as much as I gather, is only credited for writing two songs in his lifetime (the two he is credited for are on Karen’s solo album).

I know the connection is the Billy Joel band who worked closely on the album, but yea, she maybe could have have done a little better to stay in the same flavor as the other song selections that were chosen and were written by polished song writers such as Rod Temperton (If We Try, Thriller, Off the Wall, Rock With You, just a few here), Bob Morrison et al (Lookin' for Love) and Steve Dorff et al (I Just Fall in Love Again`).

 

[Chris May]

I agree, and If We Try is one of my favorite songs. To your second point, and aside from the excellent insight Chris May provides in this thread, there is one question to me that begs to be answered…how did two songs by Russell Javors, even get be options for Karen's album.

Of course, he is a brilliant and accomplished musician in his own right, however as much as I gather, is only credited for writing two songs in his lifetime (the two he is credited for are on Karen’s solo album).

I know the connection is the Billy Joel band who worked closely on the album, but yea, she maybe could have have done a little better to stay in the same flavor as the other song selections that were chosen and were written by polished song writers such as Rod Temperton (If We Try, Thriller, Off the Wall, Rock With You, just a few here), Bob Morrison et al (Lookin' for Love) and Steve Dorff et al (I Just Fall in Love Again`).

And with all due respect to Karen, Richard is absolutely right in saying that she didn't possess and ear for picking songs. Case in point with tracks like "Goofus" in terms of its release as a single.

Karen was a force to be reckoned with when it came to her talents, so we shouldn't be afraid to state nor ignore the obvious here.

 

[Chris May]

Quite possibly. Look what Olivia turned out after Grease. Totally Hot. She didn’t have anyone new in her ear forcing her down that direction. It was something she instinctively chose.

We can't take two entirely different DNA and expect that both are going to turn out the same end result. Karen and Olivia were much different. That's not in any way to diminish either of their talents. But let's face it, Olivia wasn't Karen nor was Karen Olivia. Doesn't sound very profound in the literal sense, but just think about it for a minute.

 

[1969]

My 2 cents --

With all due respect to the previous comments in the thread, it's disheartening to read the negative vibe of some. "Karen wouldn't have...... Karen copied.... Had Karen never been exposed.... etc..." Maybe just poor phrasing? People learn from others. That's why you go to school. We are all privileged of learning a skill from someone else at any point in our lifetimes. So Richard learned from Les Paul and Mary Ford and Karen learned working with Richard. I don't think Les Paul went around saying Richard stole the Les Paul/Mary Ford sound. For Richard to begrudge Karen the ability to use overdubbing or to say (using the words in LGB with regard to her solo work) that Karen had "stolen" the Carpenters sound is ludicrous. He should argue that point with Peter Cetera who ran into similar accusations (you stole the Chicago sound) when he was trying to release his first solo album around the same time as Karen. Peter's answer is on Youtube. To save time, he essentially said "he is the Chicago sound, so how can he steal it?" (sidenote: record label was worried a successful solo Peter Cetera would lead to a breakup of Chicago...... sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

Whether it be overdubs, backup vocals, lead, head voice, high voice, basement voice, whatever, etc..... The sound of Karen's voice and how she chose to read a lyric is what made the overdubbing sound special, the Carpenters sound special. The Carpenters' overdubbing would be average without Karen. When she embarked on her solo effort, she took all her talents and abilities with her. That includes the overdubbing. Whatever she wanted her album to be artistically was up to her. Not me, not you, not Richard. The song selection, her choices. She wasn't sure she could sing in a different style. After she completed her solo, she happily discovered she could (quote in LA Times). A mark of accomplishment..... good for her. Despite the album's LA rejection, it was something she was incredibly proud of until her passing. It remains the one thing left of her legacy that is 100% adult Karen lead/backup vocals (with exception for Peter Cetera), no Richard, no added filler. It is the window to what could've been. So handle it like the gem that it is, because Richard (despite comments on record) has labeled the tracks as so on YT.

 

[newvillefan]

So Richard learned from Les Paul and Mary Ford and Karen learned working with Richard. I don't think Les Paul went around saying Richard stole the Les Paul/Mary Ford sound. For Richard to begrudge Karen the ability to use overdubbing or to say (using the words in LGB with regard to her solo work) that Karen had "stolen" the Carpenters sound is ludicrous.

Absolutely well said! . They weren’t the first group to adopt the tight overdubbed sound and they definitely weren’t the last. And in my opinion others took it up a notch and did it even better. There isn’t a copyright on that kind of stuff.

 

[Mark-T]

My 2 cents --

With all due respect to the previous comments in the thread, it's disheartening to read the negative vibe of some. "Karen wouldn't have...... Karen copied.... Had Karen never been exposed.... etc..." Maybe just poor phrasing? People learn from others. That's why you go to school. We are all privileged of learning a skill from someone else at any point in our lifetimes. So Richard learned from Les Paul and Mary Ford and Karen learned working with Richard. I don't think Les Paul went around saying Richard stole the Les Paul/Mary Ford sound. For Richard to begrudge Karen the ability to use overdubbing or to say (using the words in LGB with regard to her solo work) that Karen had "stolen" the Carpenters sound is ludicrous. He should argue that point with Peter Cetera who ran into similar accusations (you stole the Chicago sound) when he was trying to release his first solo album around the same time as Karen. Peter's answer is on Youtube. To save time, he essentially said "he is the Chicago sound, so how can he steal it?" (sidenote: record label was worried a successful solo Peter Cetera would lead to a breakup of Chicago...... sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

Whether it be overdubs, backup vocals, lead, head voice, high voice, basement voice, whatever, etc..... The sound of Karen's voice and how she chose to read a lyric is what made the overdubbing sound special, the Carpenters sound special. The Carpenters' overdubbing would be average without Karen. When she embarked on her solo effort, she took all her talents and abilities with her. That includes the overdubbing. Whatever she wanted her album to be artistically was up to her. Not me, not you, not Richard. The song selection, her choices. She wasn't sure she could sing in a different style. After she completed her solo, she happily discovered she could (quote in LA Times). A mark of accomplishment..... good for her. Despite the album's LA rejection, it was something she was incredibly proud of until her passing. It remains the one thing left of her legacy that is 100% adult Karen lead/backup vocals (with exception for Peter Cetera), no Richard, no added filler. It is the window to what could've been. So handle it like the gem that it is, because Richard (despite comments on record) has labeled the tracks as so on YT.

It is absolutely a gem in my collection. And as for multiple Karens in any form, I LOVE the sound of her singing voice. Always have and always will.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

The album in which we are all familiar with today is the album the executives, Richard, and Quincy all heard in 1980. Richard was given a private playback of the album by Karen before it was taken to the upper brass.

Richard's biggest gripe with the whole thing was that Phil and Karen opted to overdub all of the four-part, close harmony. The whole point of the solo album was to make it a complete departure from the traditional "Carpenters" sound. And I think most with an educated ear and knowledge of Karen's personal and professional history will tell you that much of what she picked and the way she sang it was a bit copied, and should I say, contrived at times. She was trying to emulate the people in the business she admired, rather than stick with her true self.

This doesn't for one second mean that she couldn't be herself and find her own without Richard. Suffice to say, had Karen gotten healthy first, I can almost guarantee we would have had an entirely different solo album, and possibly more in the years to follow had she lived

That's such a weird beef to have. I mean...Richard did not invent four-part vocal arrangements. Heatwave (the group Rod Temperton belonged to, wrote for, and arranged for) already made these same vocal arrangements their stock and trade before Rod ever even met Karen. Even before that, other groups throughout music history had been doing vocal arrangements like these. Further, Rod's vocal arrangements don't sound like Richard's. Rod displayed a more Jazz vocal approach and Richard is mostly a choral arranger. Their approaches are utterly different.

Musically, it is a very different album. As far as "copying," Richard certainly had no trouble copying other tunes as their career began to sink. "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" ring a bell? It's a total copy of Robert Palmer's cover. He did this more than once as we know. In the end, she tried a bunch of things on this album. IMHO most worked, the Javors tunes didn't. I'm just glad she put herself out there.

That said this is a forty year-old album so it's not that deep or anything; just very odd arguments to have.

Ed

 

[andywithaz]

I know the solo album crops up in threads occasionally and we’ve done this before, but this would have been my final tracklist. The original running order was a mess stylistically and shouldn’t have included the awful “All Because Of You”, which just goes nowhere.

Lovelines
Make Believe It’s Your First Time
If I Had You
Makin’ Love In The Afternoon
Still Crazy After All These Years

Still In Love With You
My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
Love Makin’ Love To You
Guess I Just Lost My Head
If We Try
Remember When Lovin’ Took All Night

I agree with you line up but I would add All Because of You because it is a great stripped down track of just Karen and guitar.

Stylistically, it does no go with the rest of the album though.

 

[PaulinUK]

And with all due respect to Karen, Richard is absolutely right in saying that she didn't possess and ear for picking songs. Case in point with tracks like "Goofus" in terms of its release as a single.

Karen was a force to be reckoned with when it came to her talents, so we shouldn't be afraid to state nor ignore the obvious here.

I don’t think this is exactly legitimate or fair criticism of Karen. First, her ability to select songs for the duo to record was, according to Richard, better than his on occasion (see “Sweet Sweet Smile”). Second, Richard operated as their main producer and predominant A&R man (a role he took on himself and no doubt dominated - and a role to which Karen very publicly deferred in many interviews) so she wasn’t given the chance of seeking or selecting tracks. Third, on her solo album Karen wasn’t solely selecting the tracks - she had a producer in the form of Ramone who presented her with a range of songs to choose from. She was also an inexperienced 29 year old artist, whose talent was her voice, not her production skills. (Arguably, on this front, she was let down by the label - perhaps because some in high places never wanted the solo album to succeed?)

Compare with Frida Lyngstad and Agnetha Faltskog’s first solo albums after ABBA in 1982 - they are both patchy, both contain some elements of the “ABBA sound” (they were the sound, after all!), both did marginally well on the charts.

But they were both released at the time, representing the freedoms both women enjoyed to spread their wings and explore new routes as solo artists (whilst never ruling out returning to ABBA) and with the support of their former band mates and labels.

The only difference? They had divorced their controlling male bandmates (former husbands!) and had more freedom and independence to explore their own musicality. Frida was supported by Phil Collins as the hottest producer in town - but it still is not anything like a smash hit ABBA record. All these women’s solo albums since have only been minor hits, nothing on the scale of ABBA, but they at least were given the respect of allowing their work to be released and heard in their lifetime, something Karen was sadly never allowed.

What this comes down to - and hindsight here is a great thing of course - is that the disrespect shown to Karen by refusing to support the solo album’s release was sexist, controlling and ultimately proved harmful to an already fragile soul.

And, as it turns out, Richard’s ability to select hit tracks had apparently deserted him - see MIA, VOTH and Time. I love all these albums, but they weren’t commercial successfully, suggesting something beyond merely the ability to pick songs.

And 40 years later, to this fan at least, Karen Carpenter stands up better than many many debut solo albums by the likes of Agnetha, Frida and her other contemporaries. I just wish Karen’s record had been released, even to marginal success, in 1980.