SOUTH OF THE BORDER - Your Reviews

[Harry]

Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass
SOUTH OF THE BORDER



Song Listing:

South Of The Border {Kennedy-Carr} [2:06]
The Girl From Ipanema {Gimbel-Jobim-De Moraes} [2:35]
Hello, Dolly! {Jerry Herman} [1:55]
I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face {Lerner-Loew} [2:25]
Up Cherry Street {Julius Wechter} [2:13]
Mexican Shuffle {Sol Lake} [2:09]
El Presidente {Sol Lake} [2:28]
All My Loving {McCartney-Lennon} [1:53]
Angelito {Herrera-Ornellas} [2:20]
Salud, Amor y Dinero {Sol Lake} [2:05]
Numero Cinco {Ervan Coleman} [2:15]
Adios, Mi Corazon {Sol Lake} [2:39]

The new SHOUT! Factory CD is out so let us know what you think of it. Let's keep this discussion to ONLY this album.

Harry

 

[Captaindave]

Am I right in thinking that some of the sound has been "cleaned up" as compared to the vinyl? I always thought I heard some distorted sound on certain tracks on the vinyl...

 

[Harry]

This morning I did a three-way comparison on SOUTH OF THE BORDER, comparing the new SHOUT! CD with the older A&M CD and the original A&M LP.

Overall, the sound levels were between 2 and 4 db louder than the A&M CD, and musically, the new disc has more in common with the LP than the A&M CD.

I should mention here that I've done comparisons between the A&M CD and the old LP before and noticed many differences. A couple of common general differences between those two should be noted here: one, that the A&M CD seems faster overall - speeded up from the way the LP sounded; and tow, that the LP seemed to have a bit more reverb than the drier CD. The new SHOUT! CD tends toward the LP in sound in that it has a bit more reverb in spots and is at the slower pitch, like the LP. It is that dryness on the A&M CD that at times makes it sound like a cleaner recording overall than the new SHOUT! counterpart. It's as if the reverb is somehow adding a bit of grittiness to recordings.

South Of The Border - The stereo somehow got reversed on the A&M CD - it's restored to it's proper placing on the SHOUT! disc.

The Girl From Ipanema - obvious more reverb on the SHOUT! disc.

Hello, Dolly! - the opening of this track sounds more 'hard right channel' than the A&M CD does.

I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face - like the LP, the opening mandolin starts and stays in the right channel. On the A&M CD it travels from left to right. The SHOUT! CD sounds cleaner here.

Up Cherry Street - When the opening guitar riff stops, the old A&M CD had a fair amount of print-through of the next trumpet line. This seems minimized on the new SHOUT! CD, though the overall sound of the track is grittier than its A&M counterpart.

Mexican Shuffle - The new SHOUT! CD shines on this track. No longer attempting to fake any kind of stereo, this new disc presents the recording in rock solid mono. The track pops with the enhanced bass and just sounds great here.

El Presidente - I have to give the nod to the A&M CD here. The SHOUT! track sounds duller and grittier, though it's presented at the LP speed. The A&M track, though clean, is noticeably faster. The new SHOUT! disc has the end crowd noises placed in the left of the stereo, whereas the A&M disc has them more centered. I prefer the new disc in this regard as the crowd noise is less distracting coming from one of the channels rather than both.

All My Loving - Again, a nod to the A&M disc. Though there's more reverb on the SHOUT! disc, like the LP, it unfortunately also seems to suffer from dropouts, and has an overall grittier feel to it than does the A&M CD.

Angelito - The two recordings are about the same with the SHOUT! having a tiny bit more reverb. Other than that, they're very similar.

Salud, Amor y Dinero - Another case of the SHOUT! disc being grittier. The A&M sounds cleaner to me.

Numero Cinco - the A&M CD surprised many of us with the 'Mexican Recording Engineer' opening the track. That's gone on the new SHOUT! CD, just as it was on many copies of the LP. The A&M disc is noticeably faster on this track, while the SHOUT! disc has a bit more reverb.

Adios, Mi Corazon - Again the A&M disc is faster, with the sonics between the two discs about the same.

Though I didn't note it in the above track-by-track descriptions, there are a number of times when the new SHOUT! disc presents just a little bit more music as the fade-outs on some of the tracks are slightly longer.

When one considers that this disc is closer to the feel and intent of the original vinyl, but improves the overall sound immensely, one can see the value in this new release. Yeah, some of the A&M tracks sound a bit cleaner, but I wonder if the dryer sound is really what was originally intended. Hard to say...

Harry
...with his two cents, online...

 

[carlito]

I think South Of The Border had more reverb added to it because the original tapes are in rough shape. Particularly bad is All My Lovin'. Perhaps there were no original masters to remix from and these are stereo mixdowns.

 

[BrassFan]

I think the sound on South of the Border is awesome, especially the bass.

From a consumer standpoint, however, I think we should point out that SOB clocks in at less than 30 minutes.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

It always has, since 1964.

David,
a consumer who also owns the LP with just under 30 minutes.........

 

[Captaindave]

I love it...it is one of my favorites. Of course, I will probably say that about the others as well...

I like the sound of the new CD better than the vinyl album. It seems as thought it is cleaner and clearer overall.

CDs that are based on albums from the past, such as SOTB, are no doubt going to be shorter in length. The original recording wasn't that long to begin with, and that's what these are...reissues of the original recordings. Isn't that pretty much the case will most vinyl albums from the past? Vinyl just wasn't a high capacity storage medium. If you had a recording that had more content, it seemed to me that it was usually released as a double album.

These reissues are just exactly what I have been wanting for years...the vinyl albums made available on the CD format. Turntables are, for the most part, a thing of the past. Now, I can hear all the old music on today's playback format.

Plus, now that it is using current playback technology, the music has a chance to be heard again on a more widespread basis, and maybe receive some measure of popularity again. As long as it was confined to vinyl, that would be unlikely.

 

[Numero Cinco]

Harry: All My Loving . . . unfortunately also seems to suffer from dropouts.

I'm not quite sure what "dropouts" are, but it prompts another observation, this regarding "Up Cherry Street." First, having missed the A & M reissue on CD, I'm overjoyed to have this track in that format. I read somewhere a comment by Cissy Wechter that this was one of her husband's songs that always made her smile. Me, too. And I'll always be partial to Mr. Alpert's earlier, soft-shoe arrangement.

Listening to the Shout! reissue both on speakers and headphones, I am unable to hear a very small touch that, as a kid, I always loved while listening to the LP. After the second strain and its repeat, I distinctly remember the drummer (Hal Blaine, or whoever) giving his cymbal a nice ting on the first beat of the third bar of the main melody line. Don't ask me why such a small thing made me smile, but it did. I can't hear it on the new reissue, maybe because they've boosted John Pisano's guitar on the right channel.

I may be the only one who misses this, but I do. Well, who cares? The track, like the disc, is a joy.

 

[alpertfan]

This reissue sounds the same as THE LONELY BULL in terms of equalization. The title song sounds as if it has been almost completely "no-noised", which, I'm sorry to say, destroys the sound of an already low-frequency recording. The rest is just fine to my ears. Again, as I mentioned in another post, it's so gratifying to have these reissues, that these little imperfections don't really matter. Now for another trivia question: Was the famous Crescendo Club gig that the Brass played before or after this record was released? The reason I'm asking is because the booklet has pictures of Tonni Kalash, Lou Pagani, John Pisano, Pat Senatore, Bob Edmondson and Nick Ceroli, half of whom were said to have played that gig.

 

[Ed Bishop]

Well, it's a fine, **** album....not their best, but very strong.

Sonically, I agree there is a 'boomy' quality to the bass here that seems exaggerated beyond reason..and yes, there is obvious NR at work on these reissues, most of it I suspect unnecessary(most use of NR is)....once the bass was adjusted I found the disc to be listenable.

 

[TonyCurrie]

Nice to hear MEXICAN SHUFFLE in proper mono, and I particularly enjoyed hearing a clean recording of SALUD since mine's chewed up a bit with over-use!!

 

[Ed Bishop]

I like the sound of the new CD better than the vinyl album. It seems as thought it is cleaner and clearer overall.

Cleaner--often due to noise reduction technology....but often an illusion, also. Clearer: Eq adjustments. Nothing most of us can't do at home, one way or another, if we choose.

CDs that are based on albums from the past, such as SOTB, are no doubt going to be shorter in length. The original recording wasn't that long to begin with, and that's what these are...reissues of the original recordings. Isn't that pretty much the case will most vinyl albums from the past? Vinyl just wasn't a high capacity storage medium. If you had a recording that had more content, it seemed to me that it was usually released as a double album.

Well, first of all, since the TJB albums weren't lengthy to begin with, both mono and stereo mixes could have been included and these reissues wouldn't have been just very good; might even have been phenomenal. I think there's a bit of excessive praise going on here, because IMO, the potential these could have had have not been reached. Too skimpy, to be honest.

Many classical Lp's run fifty minutes or longer, and with the right equipment, sound great when the mastering was good and the vinyl clean. Vinyl also was a high capacity storage medium...a lot went into those grooves, you know!

These reissues are just exactly what I have been wanting for years...the vinyl albums made available on the CD format. Turntables are, for the most part, a thing of the past. Now, I can hear all the old music on today's playback format.

There are several formats going today: redbook, SACD, DVD-Audio, DVD. The redbook is the inferior of these, so I can't get too excited about this. Had these been issued on SACD, I'd agree.

Turntables are hardly a thing of the past; I have friends both young and old who own TT's, and plenty of vinyl. There are still very good reasons to have one, including all the mono TJB's....

Plus, now that it is using current playback technology, the music has a chance to be heard again on a more widespread basis, and maybe receive some measure of popularity again. As long as it was confined to vinyl, that would be unlikely.

Sorry, but here we really disagree. My belief is that only we Alpert/TJB fans are gonna buy these; nobody else is going to give a damn, to be honest. These albums are not going to garner many new fans; just the old fans buying the albums yet again, which is generally true of 99.9% of all reissues: for fans only.

 

[rbisherw]

If you think SOB is short in length, wait until "Sounds Like"

Sounds Like may be my favorite overall TJB release, but it is a short one.

 

[davepowers]

I grew up with the mono LP version of SOTB, (my father only had Hi-Fi until 1972) which sounded great until I bought my stereo LP copy in the mid '70's. What a great sound the stereo LP had! But only the mono LP had the "un bailar Americano-numero cinco" intro, not the stereo LP. The A&M CD that I purchased in the late '80's had the spoken intro (Cool!), which I wish that they would have left in on the Shout! release. I was bummed to hear the song start without the intro, although the overall re-master sounds good throughout. Sometimes the imperfections have more personality than a totally polished performance, so I'll hang on to the older CD version as well...(also keeping LP-108).
About the drop-outs in tape, you gotta deal with that, because tape deteriorates after many years...

Waiting for Vol. 2...

 

[Mike Blakesley]

My belief is that only we Alpert/TJB fans are gonna buy these

Well, good! Herb's gonna sell 75 million again!

 

[Ed Bishop]

My belief is that only we Alpert/TJB fans are gonna buy these

Well, good! Herb's gonna sell 75 million again!

Probably not, MM.... .....with all the used vinyl copies I've come across, his original listenership is either dead, destitute, or has lost interest entirely(Ok, a few of them could have ditched their vinyl for CD, the silly fools).

These should do Ok, but still, they're for the faithful, I'm sure Herb knows that....

 

[Numero Cinco]

alpertfan: Now for another trivia question: Was the famous Crescendo Club gig that the Brass played before or after this record was released? The reason I'm asking is because the booklet has pictures of Tonni Kalash, Lou Pagani, John Pisano, Pat Senatore, Bob Edmondson and Nick Ceroli, half of whom were said to have played that gig.

I think we'd best not expect utter historical reliability in the reissues' liner copy, including the photographs. Others on this site have documented (to my satisfaction, at least) that H. A. had not yet formed his touring group when he produced South of the Border. Even after the group was formed (circa !!Going Places!!), those who toured overlapped minimally with studio musicians employed for the albums.

TonyCurrie expresses his delight over a clean track of "Salud, Amor Y Dinero." I feel similarly about "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face." I've grown so accustomed to the snap, crackle, and pops on my 1964 LP that listening to pristine tracks is an almost jarring experience.

Ed Bishop: .....with all the used vinyl copies I've come across, his original listenership is either dead, destitute, or has lost interest entirely.

You need to do something about that gloomy attitude. Try listening some more to the Herb Alpert Signature Series!

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I still have my original vinyl, Ed...it's scratchy and the covers are worn out, but I still have the whole bunch. I was an original listener back in '65...I still may have been wet behind those ears, but they sure knew good sounding music when they heard it...

And, I agree with Harry...this reissue is very important, because I'm hearing this music on CD for the first time...and the clarity is amazing!




Dan

 

[DAN BOLTON]

As far as touring goes, the first mention of any live performances occurs in the liner notes on the back cover of WHIPPED CREAM. Since the album debuted in 1965, it's safe to assume that that was when the "touring group" was formed. The first venue mentioned was the Hollywood Bowl, as I remember; so the Crescendo gig was a totally different animal. The only group members that I can recall actually playing at the Crescendo were Pat Senatore and Bob Edmondson. Julius likely played, as well...



Dan, looking for more details...

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Ed: That was a JOKE. Yer not laughin', son...I'm pitchin' em but you're not catchin' em.

 

[Plucky87]

Great CD! Thank You Shout Factory! Only suggestion would of been to include the spoken Numero Cinco intro found on the A&M version...I miss it.

 

[Ed Bishop]

Ed: That was a JOKE. Yer not laughin', son...I'm pitchin' em but you're not catchin' em.

And they forgot the countoff too!

 

[Numero Cinco]

I'm not sure whether the following thought is better posted in this thread on in the TJB/BMB comparison. Maybe it shouldn't be posted at all. What the heck.

South of the Border, Track #11 (old LP B-side, Track #5, appropriately): "Numero Cinco."

Listen to the second playing of the song's bridge. Instrumentation: bass, drums, and guitar underneath flute doubling marimba on the melody.

This is the signature sound of the BMB. I can't recall any TJB track, so arranged and performed, that antedates this one.

Was this the effective origin of The Baja Marimba Band?

 

[Ed Bishop]

I don't think so...remember, the Baja's go back to 1964(at least)and Almo International. SOTB is '65. It's an interesting thought, though....

 

[AudiophilePhil]

I don't think so...remember, the Baja's go back to 1964(at least)and Almo International. SOTB is '65. It's an interesting thought, though....

South Of The Border was released in 1964.