SOUTH OF THE BORDER - Your Reviews
- Thread starter Harry
- Start date
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thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
SOUTH OF THE BORDER was released in 1964. But the first Baja was released prior to SOTB, so it is unlikely that they got the idea from SOTB.
David,
correcting the timeline, online...
David,
correcting the timeline, online...
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
According to the booklet with SOTB, the album was originally released in February, 1964; the official number was A&M 108. The first BMB album was A&M 104, which probably meant a late-1963 release date, unless a huge number of albums were released at once. I'm not sure just how release dates and album numbers coincided, but it would appear that the BMB album was first.
Dan
Dan
I've listened to this one a few times now, and have made a few comparisons for sound quality. Also, an engineer I'm familiar with picked up a copy of this and his thoughts about the sound concurred with mine:
1. Neither of us heard noise noise reduction on this disc, which is good. That's my biggest complaint about recent "remasterings". In this case, I'm betting a better source tape was used than what was used for the original CD. It's not cleaner sounding due to noise reduction, but it has less of that analog tape 'veil' you get when dubbing one generation of tape to another...which sort of flattens the whole presentation.
2. There is some brick-wall limiting on the peaks...I can hear it, but I don't think 99.9% of the buyers of these CDs will ever notice. It's not all that bad, and I've definitely heard worse!
3. EQ is definitely tilted up on both ends...more of a mastering decision than anything. (My engineer friend happens to like Ted Jensen's mastering style, so other than the boomy bass, he didn't mind it being a little brighter on the top.) In fact, I was hearing a little more distortion on things like the trumpet than I"m used to. It's there on the master tapes (and on the other CD and LP copies I have), but the added EQ just made it stand out a bit more.
4. The lack of the spoken intro to "Numero Cinco" makes me think once again that there were indeed east and west coast versions of this LP. This may explain why the old CD is more "dry" (less reverb) as well.
FWIW, my original LP is an early pressing, but I'm not sure of which plant it was pressed at. Regardless, it is very dull sounding in comparison to other versions I own. In fact, the same tracks on the A&M Audiophile LP pressing I have of Greatest Hits run circles around this LP. Curiously too, the vinyl is noticeably heavier than other A&Ms I have from that era. It's not as heavy as a 180g pressing, but it's definitely more than the standard 90-100g most production pressings had.
Only one minor packaging complaint--I do like the digipak's design and layout, and the "Signature Series" motif is nice, but the shrink-wrapping buckled the fronts of all three titles slightly. Interestingly, the label design on the CDs is almost how I'd pictured it, and I like how the CD label echoes the "painted" colors on the packaging. In the booklets, I like the addition of the photos I'd never seen before. Overall, a nice job!
1. Neither of us heard noise noise reduction on this disc, which is good. That's my biggest complaint about recent "remasterings". In this case, I'm betting a better source tape was used than what was used for the original CD. It's not cleaner sounding due to noise reduction, but it has less of that analog tape 'veil' you get when dubbing one generation of tape to another...which sort of flattens the whole presentation.
2. There is some brick-wall limiting on the peaks...I can hear it, but I don't think 99.9% of the buyers of these CDs will ever notice. It's not all that bad, and I've definitely heard worse!
3. EQ is definitely tilted up on both ends...more of a mastering decision than anything. (My engineer friend happens to like Ted Jensen's mastering style, so other than the boomy bass, he didn't mind it being a little brighter on the top.) In fact, I was hearing a little more distortion on things like the trumpet than I"m used to. It's there on the master tapes (and on the other CD and LP copies I have), but the added EQ just made it stand out a bit more.
4. The lack of the spoken intro to "Numero Cinco" makes me think once again that there were indeed east and west coast versions of this LP. This may explain why the old CD is more "dry" (less reverb) as well.
FWIW, my original LP is an early pressing, but I'm not sure of which plant it was pressed at. Regardless, it is very dull sounding in comparison to other versions I own. In fact, the same tracks on the A&M Audiophile LP pressing I have of Greatest Hits run circles around this LP. Curiously too, the vinyl is noticeably heavier than other A&Ms I have from that era. It's not as heavy as a 180g pressing, but it's definitely more than the standard 90-100g most production pressings had.
Only one minor packaging complaint--I do like the digipak's design and layout, and the "Signature Series" motif is nice, but the shrink-wrapping buckled the fronts of all three titles slightly. Interestingly, the label design on the CDs is almost how I'd pictured it, and I like how the CD label echoes the "painted" colors on the packaging. In the booklets, I like the addition of the photos I'd never seen before. Overall, a nice job!
Ed Bishop
Member
While it's entirely possible NR was not used, the fact that the top was boosted slightly(there is definitely hiss evident)suggests the possibility, since the hiss isn't excessive. Had the recording been mastered 'naturally,' without any NR, would have expected more hiss(there are, of course, ways of reducing hiss levels without resorting to NR).
I suppose my concern is simply that, listening to these remasters, I'm consciously aware that I'm listening to a 'remastered disc'....with the best remasters, I tend not to notice that, and just become enveloped in the music. But there's no denying this is a nice sound, and the 3 have gotten plenty of play! Just wish they'd also included the mono, which is not a small loss, IMO.
I do agree, there had to have been two tapes prepared to have a countoff on one and not the other.
I suppose my concern is simply that, listening to these remasters, I'm consciously aware that I'm listening to a 'remastered disc'....with the best remasters, I tend not to notice that, and just become enveloped in the music. But there's no denying this is a nice sound, and the 3 have gotten plenty of play! Just wish they'd also included the mono, which is not a small loss, IMO.
I do agree, there had to have been two tapes prepared to have a countoff on one and not the other.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
I agree with Harry that this SOTB sounds more like the original stereo LP I grew up with in the 60s. The 1988 CD sounds like the mid 70's reissue which has the channels reversed on SOTB and the spoken intro on NUMERO CINCO. Over all, I like this version better. True there are a couple of spots where the age shows just a little, but over all it's a nice job. The only thing I would have liked them to do differently would have been to put the LP back cover on the back of the digi-pack instead of the booklet. But I guess I'll take comfort in the fact that each of these reissues has a nice picture below the disc tray.
David,
thanking Herb and Co. once again for bring these albums to us.......
David,
thanking Herb and Co. once again for bring these albums to us.......
martin
Well-Known Member
South of the border sounds really good in my ears. It feels right, well balanced and gives a comfortable listening experience. I agree that it is somehow closer to experiencing my German pressing of the stereo LP on good equipment than the 1988 CD that I also have.
- greetings from the north -
Martin
- greetings from the north -
Martin
Larry
Member
I first purchased SOTB late spring of 1966. It was the stereo version of course, being a stereo nut then and still am. To this day it is my second most favorite TJB album, WNML being the first. I do have the CD version which I have enjoyed since purchasing it. I was never crazy about the panning from left to right in the beginning of "I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face", so the Shout version is a welcome pleasure along with the restored bass to "South Of The Border". The spoken introduction to "Numero Cinco" was never really annoyed me. The overall sound is much closer to the original LP than the 1988 CD release. I am so glad Herb is remastering and releasing these great albums again and adhering to the original LP releases. To hear them as I originally heard them is a real treat. I can hardly wait for the rest of them to be released.
Numero Cinco
New Member
I want to pitch my dos centavos for the remastered, reissued South of the Border. To date, most attention has been concentrated on Lost Treasures. That's understandable and justified.
SOTB, however, has always held a special place in some hearts. "The Lonely Bull" first put the TJB on the map, but it was "Mexican Shuffle" that jump-started Mr. Alpert's popularity when it seemed as though the Brass would be a one-hit wonder. On SOTB, most of the pieces of the TJB sound all came together, really, for the first time. Almost all of the tracks on this record are well executed, if more pervasively Spanish in their effect. The deep-echo, "wall-of-sound" effect was never used to better effect than in SOTB. Personally, I love it. No matter how fine some of the tracks from Herb Alpert's Ninth, I confess that it sounds to me as though recorded inside a spacious telephone booth, compared with the Spector-like sound of SOTB.
The title track is a prime example. Everytime I hear it, even after forty years, that arrangement and performance still knock my socks off. Most of us may forget that "South of the Border (Down Mexico Way)" was little more than a trite lounge vocal, one of several in the 1940s about left-behind lovers in exotica locales, filled with silly "ay-ay-ay-ays." When Herb was finished with it, "South of the Border" belonged to him. Those trumpets bust down your doors, and you hear this song, fresh and exciting, as never before. Nobody, not even Sinatra with Billy May, ever covered it better.
As others on this site have observed, Herb's trumpet itself may never have sounded better than on this album. Apart from the engineer's sweetening, Mr. Alpert's tone is consistently rich, rounded, and full. "Angelito" may not be a great song, but that is indisputably one lovely trumpet performance. The same with "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face," which is a great song and here is rendered in gentle, soft jazz.
I could go, but enough. Amid all the joy of Lost Treasures and near endless debate over the stereo quality of The Lonely Bull, let's not forget South of the Border. Some of us never owned the there-today-went-tomorrow '80s CD. Especially for them, I raise my tequilla to this album, just under 29 minutes of musical joy.
SOTB, however, has always held a special place in some hearts. "The Lonely Bull" first put the TJB on the map, but it was "Mexican Shuffle" that jump-started Mr. Alpert's popularity when it seemed as though the Brass would be a one-hit wonder. On SOTB, most of the pieces of the TJB sound all came together, really, for the first time. Almost all of the tracks on this record are well executed, if more pervasively Spanish in their effect. The deep-echo, "wall-of-sound" effect was never used to better effect than in SOTB. Personally, I love it. No matter how fine some of the tracks from Herb Alpert's Ninth, I confess that it sounds to me as though recorded inside a spacious telephone booth, compared with the Spector-like sound of SOTB.
The title track is a prime example. Everytime I hear it, even after forty years, that arrangement and performance still knock my socks off. Most of us may forget that "South of the Border (Down Mexico Way)" was little more than a trite lounge vocal, one of several in the 1940s about left-behind lovers in exotica locales, filled with silly "ay-ay-ay-ays." When Herb was finished with it, "South of the Border" belonged to him. Those trumpets bust down your doors, and you hear this song, fresh and exciting, as never before. Nobody, not even Sinatra with Billy May, ever covered it better.
As others on this site have observed, Herb's trumpet itself may never have sounded better than on this album. Apart from the engineer's sweetening, Mr. Alpert's tone is consistently rich, rounded, and full. "Angelito" may not be a great song, but that is indisputably one lovely trumpet performance. The same with "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face," which is a great song and here is rendered in gentle, soft jazz.
I could go, but enough. Amid all the joy of Lost Treasures and near endless debate over the stereo quality of The Lonely Bull, let's not forget South of the Border. Some of us never owned the there-today-went-tomorrow '80s CD. Especially for them, I raise my tequilla to this album, just under 29 minutes of musical joy.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
For the last 40 years, Herb Alpert has been, despite being disowned by FM radio, one of the most celebrated and beloved musicians worldwide. Everyone has their favorite(s) albums(s). But I think that even Herb's weekest album has something good to offer on it. One thing's for sure whether it's a new release like LT or a reissue of an older album, when we purchase it, we all get that wild child-like anticipation that an 8 year old experiences opening presents on Christmas morning. My all-time favorite TJB is GOING PLACES. But I love SOTB as well. Each of us has a different favorite album, but we all like the whole catalog. Numero Cinco's party started the moment he put SOTB into the CD player. We all had musical eargasms listening to LT. I'm sure we'll all be back here happy as clams when WHIPPED CREAM is released. But this board will really light up later this year, when we enjoy the pleasure of some TJB albums we've never had on CD before. Leave it to Herb to bring us over a year of Christmas! Thank you Herb Alpert and all involved for bringing us one more time "the joy we knew as children".
David,
NP-LOST TREASURES
David,
NP-LOST TREASURES
Timeframe
New Member
Hi Folks - I'm very curious, would you Educated, Informed folks listen to this, and tell me how it compares to the new reissue of SOTB - the actual 1st track?
I've only spent time with this on headphones. It may sound funky or even (heaven forbid) BAD on speakers- I don't know.
However, I do believe that purists will NOT like it.
[Link removed]
The source is "Herb Alpert - Gold Series" CD from Amazon.com
Mixing headphones - Sennheiser - HD-600
Steve
I've only spent time with this on headphones. It may sound funky or even (heaven forbid) BAD on speakers- I don't know.
However, I do believe that purists will NOT like it.
[Link removed]
The source is "Herb Alpert - Gold Series" CD from Amazon.com
Mixing headphones - Sennheiser - HD-600
Steve
Timeframe
New Member
Of course Harry rightfully removed the link. I'm a strong believer in Intellectual Property Rights, and suffered here from a flatulant brain.
Before the link was removed however, a total of 19 folks downloaded the work. I'd like to hear your opinions for comparison.
If you like to "hear" the work, just send me private email, and I'll supply you a like that will allow you to "stream" the work.
Steve
Before the link was removed however, a total of 19 folks downloaded the work. I'd like to hear your opinions for comparison.
If you like to "hear" the work, just send me private email, and I'll supply you a like that will allow you to "stream" the work.
Steve
JOv2
Well-Known Member
South of The Border represents a major forward step in artistic evolution. Where Mr. Alpert's trumpet doesn't seem LP-ready for The Lonely Bull, and its follow-up seems very much an un-focused affair, SOTB is seemingly a rabbit out of the hat!
Mr. Alpert's trumpet exhibits a heroic metallic, shimmering beauty throughout; his arrangements start to incorporate unique twists and turns -- particularly in the use of tension and release -- to keep the performances exciting; musically, it's evident the session players (for the first time) play as though they have truly "bought in" to the arrangements; the Goldstar engineering team captures the perfect blend of studio acoustics and reverb: the fender bass is deep and robust, the drum kit comes with its natural environment, and the mandolin cuts through on top -- just as it would in person!
The record is a must for all modern-day pop trumpet players; indeed, in this regard it should be recognized as a cornerstone achievement in modern pop trumpet playing. As a cornet player, I certainly do and it's my all-time fav Alpert/TjB offering.
SOTB -- This IS the definitive arrangement of this song. The coolass drum break, key change, and three-horn burst with that fat fender bass on the bottom kills me every time. Mr. Alpert normally opens his TjB LPs with a very memorable number -- but it's hard to beat this one. It begins with a fast sunrise to a very hot day!
Ipanema -- The use of a tango-influenced rhythm is a stroke of genius to quickly distinguish his version of this overnight standard among the many dozens of other covers. Dig those acoustic guitar voicing in the B-section + notice how he employs a totally different playing technique for the B-section trumpet parts.
Dolly -- A little throwaway for sure. However, with the exception of perhaps Warm this is the only TjB LP limited to just one such obvious excursion.
Accustomed -- A very long (by '64 pop standards) intro is fitting for Mr. Alpert's first real foray into the realm of sensitive balladry...complete w/sweet hand percussion and another inventive arrangement. It truly comes across like a reverie...and just as it's getting started -- it suddenly ends. (Always leave 'em wanting more!)
Cherry -- A nice little swinger from Julius. The key change and endless codas make it a fun tune.
Shuffle -- Ah! The power of mono. All things considered this is 1:59 of pop music bliss: simple melody + memorable hooks + constant 12-string/fender bass/drum kit drive + a few little cool dog legs here and there (an early climax; dead silence; and a melodically un-related coda) make this pop perfection. A+
Presidente -- Sol Lake is fast becoming the master of pocket melodies that just won't quit...particularly given Mr. Alpert's haunting arrangement and sensitive horn. The solitary tympani shots and lonely single male voice moving against all the other instruments are immediately memorable. This remake decidedly exhibits just much Mr. Alpert has matured as an arranger and trumpeter since Volume II. All to a rock and roll beat, too. (How about them apples?)
Loving -- One of many Paul McCartney Beatle offerings that could've easily been a hit 45 for his group. The swing treatment acts as a buffer to the fascinating series of songs that bring to LP to a close.
With only spanish titles, the listener knew the LP would take a turn at this juncture:
Angelito -- Mr. Alpert creates a rock and roll mambo over marimba and vibes, mandolin and guitar, and strings(!)...it's hard to imagine anyone in '64 putting together such a diverse pop arrangement. Very seducing.
Dinero -- A good feel for what it might have sounded like had Mr. Alpert sat in with the BMB [flute/marimba sound is BMB territory for sure -- of course the BMB had Lee Katzman -- and he's the bomb!]. The addition of hand percussion at the expense of drum kit and fender bass is very noticeable. I dig this uncommon melody and equally unique arrangement. The key changes are unforced and the ending turnaround is sweet.
Cinco -- An excellent study in taking the simplest of "tunes" and creating a memorable "song". Based on his presumed arrangement, Mr. Alpert deserves co-writing credit.
Adios -- If this doesn't tug a tear from your eye, then you've just never really listened... The second A+ performance of this LP. I could write as much on this one song and its performance as on the previous 11. The song, arrangement and performance yield a timeless window into something very personal. To my ears Mr. Alpert would never equal such an honest, heartfelt, solemn and yearning performance...period. It's a heaven-made match between song and performer. Those sad violins get me everytime. This is music to play when you're in the depths of despair and you need to stay there. Fine`.
-James
Mr. Alpert's trumpet exhibits a heroic metallic, shimmering beauty throughout; his arrangements start to incorporate unique twists and turns -- particularly in the use of tension and release -- to keep the performances exciting; musically, it's evident the session players (for the first time) play as though they have truly "bought in" to the arrangements; the Goldstar engineering team captures the perfect blend of studio acoustics and reverb: the fender bass is deep and robust, the drum kit comes with its natural environment, and the mandolin cuts through on top -- just as it would in person!
The record is a must for all modern-day pop trumpet players; indeed, in this regard it should be recognized as a cornerstone achievement in modern pop trumpet playing. As a cornet player, I certainly do and it's my all-time fav Alpert/TjB offering.
SOTB -- This IS the definitive arrangement of this song. The coolass drum break, key change, and three-horn burst with that fat fender bass on the bottom kills me every time. Mr. Alpert normally opens his TjB LPs with a very memorable number -- but it's hard to beat this one. It begins with a fast sunrise to a very hot day!
Ipanema -- The use of a tango-influenced rhythm is a stroke of genius to quickly distinguish his version of this overnight standard among the many dozens of other covers. Dig those acoustic guitar voicing in the B-section + notice how he employs a totally different playing technique for the B-section trumpet parts.
Dolly -- A little throwaway for sure. However, with the exception of perhaps Warm this is the only TjB LP limited to just one such obvious excursion.
Accustomed -- A very long (by '64 pop standards) intro is fitting for Mr. Alpert's first real foray into the realm of sensitive balladry...complete w/sweet hand percussion and another inventive arrangement. It truly comes across like a reverie...and just as it's getting started -- it suddenly ends. (Always leave 'em wanting more!)
Cherry -- A nice little swinger from Julius. The key change and endless codas make it a fun tune.
Shuffle -- Ah! The power of mono. All things considered this is 1:59 of pop music bliss: simple melody + memorable hooks + constant 12-string/fender bass/drum kit drive + a few little cool dog legs here and there (an early climax; dead silence; and a melodically un-related coda) make this pop perfection. A+
Presidente -- Sol Lake is fast becoming the master of pocket melodies that just won't quit...particularly given Mr. Alpert's haunting arrangement and sensitive horn. The solitary tympani shots and lonely single male voice moving against all the other instruments are immediately memorable. This remake decidedly exhibits just much Mr. Alpert has matured as an arranger and trumpeter since Volume II. All to a rock and roll beat, too. (How about them apples?)
Loving -- One of many Paul McCartney Beatle offerings that could've easily been a hit 45 for his group. The swing treatment acts as a buffer to the fascinating series of songs that bring to LP to a close.
With only spanish titles, the listener knew the LP would take a turn at this juncture:
Angelito -- Mr. Alpert creates a rock and roll mambo over marimba and vibes, mandolin and guitar, and strings(!)...it's hard to imagine anyone in '64 putting together such a diverse pop arrangement. Very seducing.
Dinero -- A good feel for what it might have sounded like had Mr. Alpert sat in with the BMB [flute/marimba sound is BMB territory for sure -- of course the BMB had Lee Katzman -- and he's the bomb!]. The addition of hand percussion at the expense of drum kit and fender bass is very noticeable. I dig this uncommon melody and equally unique arrangement. The key changes are unforced and the ending turnaround is sweet.
Cinco -- An excellent study in taking the simplest of "tunes" and creating a memorable "song". Based on his presumed arrangement, Mr. Alpert deserves co-writing credit.
Adios -- If this doesn't tug a tear from your eye, then you've just never really listened... The second A+ performance of this LP. I could write as much on this one song and its performance as on the previous 11. The song, arrangement and performance yield a timeless window into something very personal. To my ears Mr. Alpert would never equal such an honest, heartfelt, solemn and yearning performance...period. It's a heaven-made match between song and performer. Those sad violins get me everytime. This is music to play when you're in the depths of despair and you need to stay there. Fine`.
-James
JO said:
Thanks James for the nice, well-thought-out review.
I'm still somewhat amazed and/or troubled by the timing of the appearance of "All My Loving" on SOUTH OF THE BORDER. The booklet states that February 1964 was when the album was released. Yet The Beatles own WITH THE BEATLES (which featured "All My Loving") had only preceded it by barely three months - in England, with a release date of November 22, 1963.
Most Americans know what they were doing on November 22, 1963, and it wasn't listening to an import album by some British group called The Beatles. That was, of course the day that JFK was assassinated. The ensuing weekend of events which lead to the following week's Thankgsgiving, and then we were emerged into the Christmas season.
The Beatles recording of "All My Loving" didn't appear in the US until its January 20th, 1964 release on MEET THE BEATLES. That's barely a month before Herb's take on the song came out on SOUTH OF THE BORDER, if we're to believe the timeline. That surely has to make it among the first records to cover a Beatles song.
Harry
I wonder if the booklet is off by a year. A check of Billboard's year-end charts shows no appearance at all by SOTB in '64. It was #94 on the year-end chart in 1965 and it was #11 in '66, the TJB's peak year.
So that suggests the album actually came out in '65, but sold most of its initial run in 1966 after the TJB "hit it big." (They had 3 albums in the year-end top 5 that year.)
I'm pretty sure '66 was the year I 'discovered' the TJB at the age of 9.
So that suggests the album actually came out in '65, but sold most of its initial run in 1966 after the TJB "hit it big." (They had 3 albums in the year-end top 5 that year.)
I'm pretty sure '66 was the year I 'discovered' the TJB at the age of 9.
martin
Well-Known Member
I don't think there can be any doubt that SOTB was released in 1964. That it took a while to chart nationally is another issue. 1965 saw the release of both WCAOD and GP and that's when the snowball really started rolling for Herb.
- greetings from the cold north -
Martin
- greetings from the cold north -
Martin
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Harry -- Didn't mean to go off to all and sundry there, but it's amazing what a couple of Schlitz's can do to a fella when he starts to think about his all-time fav TjB LP.
As for the release date concerns...
FEB64: Mr. Alpert could certainly have had possession of the Beatles/With The Beatles UK/Parlophone issue following its UK NOV63 release; however, unless he was an ardent early fan of the group, this is doubtful.
FEB65: This date seems unlikely as well -- given Whipped Cream... was reportedly issued APR65. Although in those days, a pop LP could be recorded and pressed for issue in 8 weeks -- I can think of no obvious reason why Mr. Alpert would have such a need to rush a follow-up to SOTB. (Then again, the WCAOD date could be incorrect as well~)
Therefore, the actual date's probably somewhere in between.
One thing for certain, it's very doubtful it could be FEB64. The musical, Hello Dolly, opened 16JAN64 and from what I understand, the earliest LP music from the play didn't hit the streets until that summer -- spearheaded by Louis Armstrong's Hello Dolly which entered the 45 charts JUN64. It's more reasonable to believe that Mr. Alpert was inspired by Louis' #1 single and tried his hand at a MexiCali version -- suggesting that Hello Dolly wasn't recoded by the TjB until after JUN64. Further conjecture adds at least 1-2 months after that for the earliest possible LP release date.
-James
As for the release date concerns...
FEB64: Mr. Alpert could certainly have had possession of the Beatles/With The Beatles UK/Parlophone issue following its UK NOV63 release; however, unless he was an ardent early fan of the group, this is doubtful.
FEB65: This date seems unlikely as well -- given Whipped Cream... was reportedly issued APR65. Although in those days, a pop LP could be recorded and pressed for issue in 8 weeks -- I can think of no obvious reason why Mr. Alpert would have such a need to rush a follow-up to SOTB. (Then again, the WCAOD date could be incorrect as well~)
Therefore, the actual date's probably somewhere in between.
One thing for certain, it's very doubtful it could be FEB64. The musical, Hello Dolly, opened 16JAN64 and from what I understand, the earliest LP music from the play didn't hit the streets until that summer -- spearheaded by Louis Armstrong's Hello Dolly which entered the 45 charts JUN64. It's more reasonable to believe that Mr. Alpert was inspired by Louis' #1 single and tried his hand at a MexiCali version -- suggesting that Hello Dolly wasn't recoded by the TjB until after JUN64. Further conjecture adds at least 1-2 months after that for the earliest possible LP release date.
-James
JOv2
Well-Known Member
...then again someone can invest $2.70 to buy a Discography Report from "On A&M records"! So, just what kind of darn-tootin' petty scumbag operation is that about?? -- I've been e-searching for recording dates and discography info for 10+ years and have yet to hit anything of substance where someone wants me to fork over a few shekels!
I hope none of the old A&M folk are tied up in that.
-JO
I hope none of the old A&M folk are tied up in that.
-JO
Ed Bishop
Member
Well, SOTB charted in January 1965; therefore, at the latest, it was issued in December 1964(although November is more likely).
The 2/64 date would make more sense for the second album, since THE LONELY BULL was released November 1962(same as the single). Since we can reasonably assume that the first three albums were issued about a year apart(with success speeding up the process as of WC), somewhere around 11/64 for SOTB makes more sense than 2/64. Not only that, but this is SP 108. SP 104--the Baja Marimba Band's debut--charted in April '64, and A&M did not tend to release albums in odd orders, so SOTB was undoubtedly issued later in 1964.
The 2/64 date would make more sense for the second album, since THE LONELY BULL was released November 1962(same as the single). Since we can reasonably assume that the first three albums were issued about a year apart(with success speeding up the process as of WC), somewhere around 11/64 for SOTB makes more sense than 2/64. Not only that, but this is SP 108. SP 104--the Baja Marimba Band's debut--charted in April '64, and A&M did not tend to release albums in odd orders, so SOTB was undoubtedly issued later in 1964.
The TJB booklets are not known for their absolute accuracy...consider that the liner note writer heard "flutes" in "Monday, Monday."
JO: The "On A&M Records" site has nothing to do with any of the "old A&M gang." It is run by a private individual who is "persona non grata" on this site due to personal attacks and other bad 'stuff.' It isn't 100% accurate either. The less said about that site and its owner, the better.
JO: The "On A&M Records" site has nothing to do with any of the "old A&M gang." It is run by a private individual who is "persona non grata" on this site due to personal attacks and other bad 'stuff.' It isn't 100% accurate either. The less said about that site and its owner, the better.
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
I don't know just how this might fit into the release-date timeline, but Charles Champlin's liner notes regarding the single SOUTH OF THE BORDER lists it as being recorded in 1963.
Also, remember that Herb was and still is an insider to the music scene in general...as a producer, he'd hear songs and preview artists a lot sooner than the general public would be aware of them. He was probably one of the first to hear the Beatles, and probably had access to their albums, if for no other reason than because they were such a hit everywhere.
And, VOLUME 2 tanked big-time when it was first released, so why not follow it up ASAP?
When did those Teaberry gum commercials come out? As I recall, it was 1964...but I might be wrong, I was only 9.
Dan
Also, remember that Herb was and still is an insider to the music scene in general...as a producer, he'd hear songs and preview artists a lot sooner than the general public would be aware of them. He was probably one of the first to hear the Beatles, and probably had access to their albums, if for no other reason than because they were such a hit everywhere.
And, VOLUME 2 tanked big-time when it was first released, so why not follow it up ASAP?
When did those Teaberry gum commercials come out? As I recall, it was 1964...but I might be wrong, I was only 9.
Dan
Billboard's Book of #1 Albums refers to SOTB as "1965's SOUTH OF THE BORDER," but it probably refers more to when it hit the charts than when it was actually released.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Hey there, Mike -- Thanks for the heads up! [SP-4123] regarding "On A&M Records".
As for the TjB Shout! CD Booklets...ain't that Josh Kun a piece of work? We could just as well run a topic detailing his incorrect and inconsistent information; or run tallies on the numerous times he recycled / re-edited previously presented material. Of the latter, my personal fav is how he appears to make it his life's work to constantly remind us that Herb "never thought of the TjB as a Latin sound"...geeze, he must've repeated that about half-a-dozen times throughout the re-issue series. My 2 fav "Kun-isms"are: (1) how Bo-Bo sounds like "Vince Guaraldi scoring a Latino Charlie Brown"; and (2) how the intro to Shades of Blue -- a somber, but otherwise straight ahead ballad -- is branded "vintage '60s psychedelia". Geeze-Louise, just what kinda acid was this dude on when he came up with this stuff? The liner states he's an English prof. Frankly, I'm surprised -- the content and mechanics exhibited in his essays are quite mediocre for someone with such credentials. (I would candidly suggest that Kun give a record more than a cursory listen before composing its accompanying essay.)
OK. That's my one-and-only Shout! TjB Booklet essay rant. Now back to a listening session of Claudine's Colours -- she's just sooo cute!!
-James
As for the TjB Shout! CD Booklets...ain't that Josh Kun a piece of work? We could just as well run a topic detailing his incorrect and inconsistent information; or run tallies on the numerous times he recycled / re-edited previously presented material. Of the latter, my personal fav is how he appears to make it his life's work to constantly remind us that Herb "never thought of the TjB as a Latin sound"...geeze, he must've repeated that about half-a-dozen times throughout the re-issue series. My 2 fav "Kun-isms"are: (1) how Bo-Bo sounds like "Vince Guaraldi scoring a Latino Charlie Brown"; and (2) how the intro to Shades of Blue -- a somber, but otherwise straight ahead ballad -- is branded "vintage '60s psychedelia". Geeze-Louise, just what kinda acid was this dude on when he came up with this stuff? The liner states he's an English prof. Frankly, I'm surprised -- the content and mechanics exhibited in his essays are quite mediocre for someone with such credentials. (I would candidly suggest that Kun give a record more than a cursory listen before composing its accompanying essay.)
OK. That's my one-and-only Shout! TjB Booklet essay rant. Now back to a listening session of Claudine's Colours -- she's just sooo cute!!
-James
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