SOUTH OF THE BORDER - Your Reviews
- Thread starter Harry
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Doesn't one of the booklets say something like Herb always used studio musicians to get the sound he wanted?
On another forum, some of the board members got into discussion on the musicians who recorded on the Tijuana Brass albums. My input was the actual Tijuana Brass recorded on all of the Brass recordings (minus Tonni and add some extra additional parts) from Going Places on to The Brass Are Comin.
One board member didn't believe this because his booklet for Going Places said "Herb always used studio musicians to get the sound he wanted." He thought everything written in the booklets are true because Herb owns the copyrights to all his music.
On another forum, some of the board members got into discussion on the musicians who recorded on the Tijuana Brass albums. My input was the actual Tijuana Brass recorded on all of the Brass recordings (minus Tonni and add some extra additional parts) from Going Places on to The Brass Are Comin.
One board member didn't believe this because his booklet for Going Places said "Herb always used studio musicians to get the sound he wanted." He thought everything written in the booklets are true because Herb owns the copyrights to all his music.
The general consensus around here is that Herb used whoever was appropriate for each recording, whether or not they were members of the touring band. With Herb it's always the sound that's paramount, and he always chose the best at their craft with which to make the recordings.
It's certainly likely that the main "core" or the Tijuana Brass touring band were on those studio recordings from GOING PLACES through BEAT OF THE BRASS and the CHRISTMAS ALBUM. The jury's still out on who played on WARM and THE BRASS ARE COMIN'. Certainly it was a mix of those core musicians and other studio musicians - and of course Julius Wechter.
Harry
It's certainly likely that the main "core" or the Tijuana Brass touring band were on those studio recordings from GOING PLACES through BEAT OF THE BRASS and the CHRISTMAS ALBUM. The jury's still out on who played on WARM and THE BRASS ARE COMIN'. Certainly it was a mix of those core musicians and other studio musicians - and of course Julius Wechter.
Harry
Captain Bacardi
Well-Known Member
Let's not forget that Herb always considered the TJB as a sound rather than a band.
Capt. Bacardi
Capt. Bacardi
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Let's also remember that in a big music and recording town like LA, there are many session/studio players who may or may not be available at any given time. It is very likely that not all the same musicians might be on various albums due to factors of availability and other commitments.
Some session players have no interest in touring and consider it financially undesirable to do so.
Some session players have no interest in touring and consider it financially undesirable to do so.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
To the best of my memory, the albums do not give any credits to performers. However, that may have been typical for the times. Later recordings from the Herb Alpert solo era provide much more of that kind of information.
I used to think that the recordings were made by the specific people on the album covers. However, I have learned in subsequent years that it was not uncommon for session players to play on the recordings of various artists. I think this was often common with many pop performers who had limited instrumental skills which might not be so evident in performance, but might be very obvious on the studio recordings. Even the Beatles often said that no one could hear anything they played in concert(if you can call it a concert).
Since the members of the performing TJB were all instrumental experts, this certainly would not have been the case there.
If Pat Senatore says the musicians pictured on the albums played on the recordings (assuming his memory of all these details from 40 years ago or more is completely accurate), then I'll be happy to let it go at that. He should know better than anyone who might be simply speculating. However, I've often heard comments that when asked, recollection of the performer list is vague and dim, even for those who participated.
Regardless, I myself don't really care nowadays - maybe I might have cared more back in the day...
I used to think that the recordings were made by the specific people on the album covers. However, I have learned in subsequent years that it was not uncommon for session players to play on the recordings of various artists. I think this was often common with many pop performers who had limited instrumental skills which might not be so evident in performance, but might be very obvious on the studio recordings. Even the Beatles often said that no one could hear anything they played in concert(if you can call it a concert).
Since the members of the performing TJB were all instrumental experts, this certainly would not have been the case there.
If Pat Senatore says the musicians pictured on the albums played on the recordings (assuming his memory of all these details from 40 years ago or more is completely accurate), then I'll be happy to let it go at that. He should know better than anyone who might be simply speculating. However, I've often heard comments that when asked, recollection of the performer list is vague and dim, even for those who participated.
Regardless, I myself don't really care nowadays - maybe I might have cared more back in the day...
Captaindave said:
I forget which year it was, but there was a point in time when the credits had to be listed. (Might have been musician's union requirement.) This was back in the late 60s or early 70s, IIRC.
Captaindave said:
It's also understandable that they might not remember details of every session. These guys and gals are pros who have played on literally hundreds or thousands of sessions. And considering that these sessions took place 30-40 years ago, it's no wonder memories fade. Heck, I can't even remember what I did yesterday...
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Interesting tangent here...
In deference to Pat Senatore's recollections, I can only follow my ears...
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which tell me the LPs, What Now My Love, SRO, Sounds Like, Ninth, The Beat of the Brass, and The Christmas Album are the work of the same core group. The technical diversity executed on guitar, bass, and drums on !!Going Places!! sounds too diverse to be the work of one group. Likewise with Warm, and to lesser extent The Brass Are Comin'.
My observations appear consistent with Harry's.
-James
In deference to Pat Senatore's recollections, I can only follow my ears...
.
.
.
.
which tell me the LPs, What Now My Love, SRO, Sounds Like, Ninth, The Beat of the Brass, and The Christmas Album are the work of the same core group. The technical diversity executed on guitar, bass, and drums on !!Going Places!! sounds too diverse to be the work of one group. Likewise with Warm, and to lesser extent The Brass Are Comin'.
My observations appear consistent with Harry's.
-James
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Session players must be capable of creating and executing any sound and style that the contractor demands. Otherwise, someone else will get the job instead who can do it.
I am certain, based on what I have heard and read about the abilities of successful session musicians, that such musicians are able to create the desired result/sound/style demanded by the person producing the session. They have to be able to do just that - it's the nature of the job. So, in that regard, I think each album could have been played by a completely different roster of musicians and still sound they way they do. Any of the top call players can do anything.
I'm not trying to say that happened in this case - I just think it is quite possible.
There is a relatively small number of full time session players in LA playing everything - from movie soundtracks to CDs...and everything in between. It's not a wide open field.
I am certain, based on what I have heard and read about the abilities of successful session musicians, that such musicians are able to create the desired result/sound/style demanded by the person producing the session. They have to be able to do just that - it's the nature of the job. So, in that regard, I think each album could have been played by a completely different roster of musicians and still sound they way they do. Any of the top call players can do anything.
I'm not trying to say that happened in this case - I just think it is quite possible.
There is a relatively small number of full time session players in LA playing everything - from movie soundtracks to CDs...and everything in between. It's not a wide open field.
For reference, that Pat Senatore interview is here.
One also has to realize that even in the "core" TjB years of WHAT NOW MY LOVE through BEAT OF THE BRASS, there are songs with instruments other than played by the main touring band, like the saxophones, flutes, and clarinets that show up from time to time, and of course the strings. So even if most of the group did play on those sessions, they were aided by nameless others as well.
Harry
One also has to realize that even in the "core" TjB years of WHAT NOW MY LOVE through BEAT OF THE BRASS, there are songs with instruments other than played by the main touring band, like the saxophones, flutes, and clarinets that show up from time to time, and of course the strings. So even if most of the group did play on those sessions, they were aided by nameless others as well.
Harry
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Agreed, Cap'n D -- the most versatile and technically competent players -- the ones with "monster chops" -- get on the A list. I do session work myself (cornet family [trpt + flg], organ, piano, drum kit), and can confirm that every producer, arranger, and/or "lead" will take one listen to a part you've worked out ahead of time and then totally mold your playing to get the sound they want. Many times I've been sent a lead sheet, CD or an mp3 and asked to arrange horns, drop in a solo, or what have you thinking I was able to put it "in the pocket" for them...only to have the idea go through countless revisions until the producer gets what he/she is after. Pretty humbling, I'll tell ya!
As for the TjB -- Herb, like all artists, was working on getting at THAT sound (whatever it might be?)...and right around !!Going Places!! he discovered IT (or at least found the crucial musical elements that definitively put the TjB sound into high gear). The touring band then sustained the "core" sound augmented, as Harry pointed out, by additional musicians as necessitated by Herb's arrangements. For instance, I'm quite sure all the acoustic guitar playing (beyond mere strumming) through Sounds Like was performed by Bud Coleman. Nevertheless, I'd bet my mono mint copy of Nat Adderley's Calling Out Loud that Nick C. is behind the kit on every recording from What Now My Love through The Christmas Album. Gotta go with the ears, man! The drum ears say "It's gotta be Nick!"
-James
As for the TjB -- Herb, like all artists, was working on getting at THAT sound (whatever it might be?)...and right around !!Going Places!! he discovered IT (or at least found the crucial musical elements that definitively put the TjB sound into high gear). The touring band then sustained the "core" sound augmented, as Harry pointed out, by additional musicians as necessitated by Herb's arrangements. For instance, I'm quite sure all the acoustic guitar playing (beyond mere strumming) through Sounds Like was performed by Bud Coleman. Nevertheless, I'd bet my mono mint copy of Nat Adderley's Calling Out Loud that Nick C. is behind the kit on every recording from What Now My Love through The Christmas Album. Gotta go with the ears, man! The drum ears say "It's gotta be Nick!"
-James
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