Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
JO said:
Like the motto of this website says:
Preserving the Sound Online (trying to).
TJB Update!
- Thread starter Captain Bacardi
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Like the motto of this website says:
Preserving the Sound Online (trying to).
JOv2
Well-Known Member
~~ Steven ~~ Thanks for the note of support.
~~ David ~~ I appreciate your words; however, at this point -- intuitively -- I can only disagree.
Simply put, music is an art form -- the highest art form as Bill Evans once stated; and ideally it exists free of all politics, nephews and other compromising elements.
Perhaps Randy would like to take a crack at some Bill Evans piano solos and spark interest by adding some drum 'n bass loops -- why stop there, let's give him Miles Davis / Kind of Blue: I'm sure he can modernize that old-timey recording so that today's under-25 crowd enjoy it! If what he's proposing isn't in the $pirit of "corporate label mentality", I'll gladly eat my Nat Adderley / Calling Out Loud mono promo!
[As for Rise -- it is monotonous dance music that hardly qualifies as great music.]
-James
~~ David ~~ I appreciate your words; however, at this point -- intuitively -- I can only disagree.
Simply put, music is an art form -- the highest art form as Bill Evans once stated; and ideally it exists free of all politics, nephews and other compromising elements.
Perhaps Randy would like to take a crack at some Bill Evans piano solos and spark interest by adding some drum 'n bass loops -- why stop there, let's give him Miles Davis / Kind of Blue: I'm sure he can modernize that old-timey recording so that today's under-25 crowd enjoy it! If what he's proposing isn't in the $pirit of "corporate label mentality", I'll gladly eat my Nat Adderley / Calling Out Loud mono promo!
If it's perceived as good art, it will always be allowed to stand alone, self supported; if, on the other hand, it's preceived as something less...
[As for Rise -- it is monotonous dance music that hardly qualifies as great music.]
-James
kenny
Member
I'm sure the reissues will be left alone other than remastering. If they do a "Stars on 45" type thing or something like Elvis Presley's' "A Little Less Conversation" a few years back where it was remixed by a club dj, it will be in addition to the original releases, not in place of the original releases.
I hope they make "max $$" as well. Good for Herb. He deserves it. I really think at this point it's more of a labor of love for him than anything else.
Rise is a great song.
I hope they make "max $$" as well. Good for Herb. He deserves it. I really think at this point it's more of a labor of love for him than anything else.
Rise is a great song.
Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
Lots of projects do end up "on the cutting room floor", Herb will ultimatly decide the fate of this stuff, I trust he will do the right thing. 
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
Steven J. Gross said:
Probably sometime next year...the process is still going on. As for the Stars on 45 concept, well...anything to get my kids to listen to Herb Alpert would be VERY welcome! They used to be impressionable...when my 15 year-old was 12, TELL IT TO THE BIRDS was his favorite song...now he's discovered Kid Rock and Nelly and a lot of other guys who use samples of older songs as a basis for their "songs". Anything to get him listening to quality music would be a godsend! And, we'd have a lot more in common again. If anybody can pull something like this off with class and respect, it's Randy...
I remember back in the early '70's that "Bubblegum" was the style-of-the-week; and even Paul Simon had to join the party...listen to CECELIA, and you'll hear the classiest bubblegum rock you ever heard...and it STILL sounds good, long after all the other crap of that era has been forgotten.
The 'Stones did disco...and it's the only decent disco I remember...
Herb and Randy just might preserve an artform...they may even create one and legitimize it. Give 'em a break!
Dan
There's nothing wrong with appealing to the young masses with a medley "sampler" or some kind of a remix. Worked for Elvis!
On a similar but non-related note, Alan Parsons (another fave of mine) just released a new album which is heavily influenced by electronica. All in an effort to rope in the young record-buyers. I never thought I would enjoy an electronica album, but it is good!
So if some modernization of Herb's music helps bring in a lot of new fans, I say go ahead. I'm sure the original albums will be left as-is, for us fans of the classics. If you don't want your art messed with, then don't listen to the update -- leave it to the youngsters it's intended to rope in -- or listen with an open mind, like I did with the new Parsons disk, and you may be surprised at what you like.
On a similar but non-related note, Alan Parsons (another fave of mine) just released a new album which is heavily influenced by electronica. All in an effort to rope in the young record-buyers. I never thought I would enjoy an electronica album, but it is good!
So if some modernization of Herb's music helps bring in a lot of new fans, I say go ahead. I'm sure the original albums will be left as-is, for us fans of the classics. If you don't want your art messed with, then don't listen to the update -- leave it to the youngsters it's intended to rope in -- or listen with an open mind, like I did with the new Parsons disk, and you may be surprised at what you like.
Mike
Active Member
Artists create and listeners… well they listen. An artist can create and recreate anything they like. As listeners, we’ve the option to listen and/or ignore, we’re the judge and jury. If Randy wants to do a “Stars On 45” thing, I don’t care; might even be good. I say, let the creative juices flow, life is to short to pre-judge music.
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
James, you're entitled to your opinion on the "Stars On 45" idea but your criticisms of Randy and the song "Rise" which probably kept Herb's musical career from ending in 1978 are way out there. I like the originals the way they were too and like someone pointed out earlier, they will most likely be reissued that way. I'm just glad that Herb and Randy still have enough interest in the TJB sound to begin a new TJB project. I will reserve judgement until I hear the finished product. But I believe I will like it because Herb's instincts are rarely wrong. If one new teenager becomes interested in TJB, then the project was worthwhile, IMHO.
David,
anxious to see the reissues and new issues.......
David,
anxious to see the reissues and new issues.......
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for insight...
I guess the initial music has deep roots within.
It's because of those LPs, that I pestered my parents to learn the trumpet (and haven't stopped playing since -- even have a Benge, though not the '40s-era Chicago model Mr. Alpert played). As a child on the Southern California coast during the '60s/’70s, his music was the soundtrack -- given that it seemed nearly every household had at least two of his LPs (Whipped Cream...; !!Going Places!!): I can confirm that in relation to my house, four houses toward town and two houses toward the ocean -- seven in a row -- each had between 2 and 5 TJB LPs!
Sorry about Rise, man,...but, everything pales after And The Angels Sing -- the epitome of both arrangement and excellent trumpet playing...truly a masterpiece.
(I always recall, back in the ‘80s how Frank Zappa re-recording bass and drums for the definitive The Mothers Of Invention / We’re Only in it for the Money; and, similarly, how “project producers” decided to modernize the Byrds’ Lady Friend by re-recording the drums... Ultimately, in both cases, the “modernized” parts were removed... I still maintain that an art work should be best left alone – in toto -- following initial issue. (Or just do what Harry Nilsson did, when he “re-did” his first two LPs...and issue the results as a separate entity.).)
-James
I guess the initial music has deep roots within.
It's because of those LPs, that I pestered my parents to learn the trumpet (and haven't stopped playing since -- even have a Benge, though not the '40s-era Chicago model Mr. Alpert played). As a child on the Southern California coast during the '60s/’70s, his music was the soundtrack -- given that it seemed nearly every household had at least two of his LPs (Whipped Cream...; !!Going Places!!): I can confirm that in relation to my house, four houses toward town and two houses toward the ocean -- seven in a row -- each had between 2 and 5 TJB LPs!
Sorry about Rise, man,...but, everything pales after And The Angels Sing -- the epitome of both arrangement and excellent trumpet playing...truly a masterpiece.
(I always recall, back in the ‘80s how Frank Zappa re-recording bass and drums for the definitive The Mothers Of Invention / We’re Only in it for the Money; and, similarly, how “project producers” decided to modernize the Byrds’ Lady Friend by re-recording the drums... Ultimately, in both cases, the “modernized” parts were removed... I still maintain that an art work should be best left alone – in toto -- following initial issue. (Or just do what Harry Nilsson did, when he “re-did” his first two LPs...and issue the results as a separate entity.).)
-James
Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
Lets face it- there is nothing better than Herb- even at his worst!
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
JO, I gotta say, I find myself leaning over in your direction...
I don't really care if some kind of package comes out to try to attract a youth audience. Good luck to them if they can do that, given what a lot of youth listen to today...all I want is Lonely Bull to Beat of the Brass on CD - OK, I'll get Warm, too, just to show I'm really not so bad...
As for RISE, I never liked it all that much, because I am spoiled by Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass in all its glory. I don't care how popular it was; it isn't my "cup of tea" so to speak. Never was. My favorites from the solo part of Herb's career are Fandango and Passion Dance.
Can't get into all that disco and electronic sound. I have played on that piece of "brass plumbing" - who called it that? - since 1962, and I do not like trumpets that don't sound like REAL trumpets. Speaking of the "oldies," I have always loved the trumpet on "Mae." Lush, full, wonderful trumpet...
I don't really care if some kind of package comes out to try to attract a youth audience. Good luck to them if they can do that, given what a lot of youth listen to today...all I want is Lonely Bull to Beat of the Brass on CD - OK, I'll get Warm, too, just to show I'm really not so bad...
As for RISE, I never liked it all that much, because I am spoiled by Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass in all its glory. I don't care how popular it was; it isn't my "cup of tea" so to speak. Never was. My favorites from the solo part of Herb's career are Fandango and Passion Dance.
Can't get into all that disco and electronic sound. I have played on that piece of "brass plumbing" - who called it that? - since 1962, and I do not like trumpets that don't sound like REAL trumpets. Speaking of the "oldies," I have always loved the trumpet on "Mae." Lush, full, wonderful trumpet...
Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
Captaindave said:
Almost a "Supertrumpet"!
I have to admit I've actually always liked the "Stars On 45"/"Swing The Mood"/"Hooked On.." kinda crap. I enjoy the Elvis remixes too. I know it's painful for some to listen to, but I like it when someone can take something that's so familiar and place it in a new setting. It's sort of like works of art that they call "found objects". Of course, I would never want the originals to be replaced by some new fangled remix but I have nothing against something being added to the catalog. I also realize that you can date yourself really quickly by adding contemporary instrumentation to a classic song. I remember discs coming out with old songs by Robert Palmer, Jethro Tull and ZZ Top that had the drums mixed way up so it sounded "80s"! Nobody wants to hear those today.
And I recall that when Herb recorded "Rise", the original idea was to make a disco version of "The Lonely Bull". (Incidentally, it was Randy's idea!) Herb thought it sounded cheesy and called a halt to the sessions. If product is going out, I'm sure Herb will have to give the final approval, and I think we can trust him that it will be tasteful.
And I recall that when Herb recorded "Rise", the original idea was to make a disco version of "The Lonely Bull". (Incidentally, it was Randy's idea!) Herb thought it sounded cheesy and called a halt to the sessions. If product is going out, I'm sure Herb will have to give the final approval, and I think we can trust him that it will be tasteful.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
~~ Captaindave ~~
Indeed: given the state of "pop" music today, why even bother..."those" people should accept our music on our own terms...I don't see anyone trying to "musicalize" rap/crack "expression" for those of us born before 1970! ("That" kinda of music appears to be generated by musical illiterates anyway...)
The problem with Rise is that it's not original -- it's Mr. Alpert caving in to the disco sounds of the day -- as opposed to being a pacesetting artist. Think of all the artists and technicians who tried to sound like the TJB...and were criticized -- and then 8 years later, such a unique individual is doing the very same thing. The other problem is that it's dance music not listening music...I just don't have the patience for rhythmic repetition (A-HEM), that is, listening to needless repetitious musical elements...all that silly back-beat hand clapping and such. Geeze, bro, give me some real music with dynamics and tempo changes and drumming that means something...Hmmm, think I'll listen to Treasure of San Miguel!
Of Mae -- Yup! His gorgeous vibrato is remeniscent of a beautiful early '60s Donald Byrd ballad. From What Now, My Love, his tone starts to change and the horn takes on a different character. Mae and And The Angels Sing probably are the best examples of a beautiful, sweet, traditional trumpet tone that Mr. Alpert ever issued.
What kind of horns do you have?
Indeed: given the state of "pop" music today, why even bother..."those" people should accept our music on our own terms...I don't see anyone trying to "musicalize" rap/crack "expression" for those of us born before 1970! ("That" kinda of music appears to be generated by musical illiterates anyway...)
The problem with Rise is that it's not original -- it's Mr. Alpert caving in to the disco sounds of the day -- as opposed to being a pacesetting artist. Think of all the artists and technicians who tried to sound like the TJB...and were criticized -- and then 8 years later, such a unique individual is doing the very same thing. The other problem is that it's dance music not listening music...I just don't have the patience for rhythmic repetition (A-HEM), that is, listening to needless repetitious musical elements...all that silly back-beat hand clapping and such. Geeze, bro, give me some real music with dynamics and tempo changes and drumming that means something...Hmmm, think I'll listen to Treasure of San Miguel!
Of Mae -- Yup! His gorgeous vibrato is remeniscent of a beautiful early '60s Donald Byrd ballad. From What Now, My Love, his tone starts to change and the horn takes on a different character. Mae and And The Angels Sing probably are the best examples of a beautiful, sweet, traditional trumpet tone that Mr. Alpert ever issued.
What kind of horns do you have?
Dave
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of Herb's material going on a "Stars On '45'" remix project--I enjoyed some of those medleys I used to hear back in the '80s'... Sort of an answer to the Novelty Song concept heard in decades earlier and snatches of songs played along with spoken intro's... And there's a lot of Herb's material to do that with...!!
I think Digi-Paks should be the standard packaging medium for CD's--they can't be any more dented or worn than my LP covers have gotten! My CD booklets have gotten wrinkled and ripped from being put in and taken from the jewel boxes so many times, I sometimes have to buy new copies of stuff to replace them alone...!!
Dave
...suprised at the number of "pages" this topic has gone...
I think Digi-Paks should be the standard packaging medium for CD's--they can't be any more dented or worn than my LP covers have gotten! My CD booklets have gotten wrinkled and ripped from being put in and taken from the jewel boxes so many times, I sometimes have to buy new copies of stuff to replace them alone...!!
Dave
...suprised at the number of "pages" this topic has gone...
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
I'm puzzled by all the negative comments about RISE...I never really thought of it as a disco song...to me, it's more "street". THAT was a first...combining funk, disco and street music into a totally new sound. Urban and hip hop both got a real boost from RISE. Dance music. Good stuff...and the chorus STILL makes my eyes well up...something triumphant about it...and VERY romantic!
Dan
Dan
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
When "Rise" came out I remember being thrilled that Herb Alpert was being played on top 40 radio again. "Rise" won Herb a whole new generation of fans who had never been interested in his music prior to that. It was truly a great song and taylor made for Herb.
David,
on the I like "Rise" side of this thread......
David,
on the I like "Rise" side of this thread......
To me the only problem with "Rise" is that it goes on too long. I made an edited version that's about 4:30 that I like much better. (Even my version does not compare with the TJB era though.)
martin
Well-Known Member
It's quite all right not to like Rise, but calling it unoriginal or claiming that it is "Alpert caving in to the disco sounds" is a total miss. Musically there is a lot of distance between Rise and the typical late seventies/early eighties disco hits. Rise is much slower and the simple instrumentation with the accoustic piano and the two guitars in front is also very different from the synthesizer and string dominated disco sounds. As Dan says it is "street" and has Herb's signature trumpet on top of a really original urban groove. It is quite a pop/jazz masterpiece that also stands the test of time in a great way, in my opinion.
- greetings from the north -
Martin
- greetings from the north -
Martin
Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
Julius Wechter told Herb it was a "miss".
I liked it though.
I liked it though.
Dave
Well-Known Member
I thought there was an edited version of "Rise", clocking in at 4 1/2 Minutes; that is generally what I hear on the radio...
Funny I never knew it was by Herb Alpert when I first heard it, either... Back then I thought he only recorded in the '60's with "The Tijuana Brass"!
Until I heard more "new songs" (or at least ONE) from him like "Route 101"...then I thought "This Guy's In Love With You" was one of the NEWER songs... 
Well, in defense of "Rise", I think it has a very timeless and urban beat and it makes Definitive Hits worth hearing, especially being the long version, which badly needs the "1980" Prelude, like the album gets...
If there's a video for it, I would sure love to see it, though it sure wouldn't match one I have in mind for it...! Oh, and I even wrote a "rap" for it, too, but never finished...!!! 
Dave
Funny I never knew it was by Herb Alpert when I first heard it, either... Back then I thought he only recorded in the '60's with "The Tijuana Brass"!
Until I heard more "new songs" (or at least ONE) from him like "Route 101"...then I thought "This Guy's In Love With You" was one of the NEWER songs... Well, in defense of "Rise", I think it has a very timeless and urban beat and it makes Definitive Hits worth hearing, especially being the long version, which badly needs the "1980" Prelude, like the album gets...
If there's a video for it, I would sure love to see it, though it sure wouldn't match one I have in mind for it...!
Oh, and I even wrote a "rap" for it, too, but never finished...!!! Dave
There IS a short version of "Rise" - it appeared on the 45 single and also on the Canadian/UK CD of THE VERY BEST OF HERB ALPERT. It times out to 3:49.
A video exists for "Rise" also, and can be found on the video package (also) called THE VERY BEST OF HERB ALPERT. It was released in the UK and Japan. The video version of the song is about a minute longer than the single version, and features three different settings. The opening follows Herb into a studio where he's seen miming to the song; another studio setting that shows Herb and Lani at a photo shoot while clapping and dancing to "Rise"; and finally a scene on the beach where Herb and Lani strut rhythmically to the song and are followed by a group of dancers.
Harry
...rising and (not quite yet) shining, online...
A video exists for "Rise" also, and can be found on the video package (also) called THE VERY BEST OF HERB ALPERT. It was released in the UK and Japan. The video version of the song is about a minute longer than the single version, and features three different settings. The opening follows Herb into a studio where he's seen miming to the song; another studio setting that shows Herb and Lani at a photo shoot while clapping and dancing to "Rise"; and finally a scene on the beach where Herb and Lani strut rhythmically to the song and are followed by a group of dancers.
Harry
...rising and (not quite yet) shining, online...
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
Lots of people told Herb that "A Taste Of Honey" was a "miss" too. Too long, can't dance to it, stops and starts.....But fortunately Herb followed his own well oiled instincts and the rest as they say is history. I never had any problem with the length of "Rise". It grooves throughout and gives the whole band a chance to open up when he performs it in concert. As for original, I think it is as original for 1979 as "The Lonely Bull" was for 1962. The very first time I heard it on the radio, I knew right away that it was Herb and the melody hooked me the way the TJB material did.
David,
giving Herb credit where it's due.............
David,
giving Herb credit where it's due.............
When I made my best of solo Herb CD for myself, I originally had the album version of Rise. I found it too long after hearing it for so many years. I replaced it with my copy of the 45, it works much better for me.
As far as the critics of the song. You really wouldn't want Herb to stand still musically, would you? He'd still be in that garage. I don't like all of Herb's post Brass material either, but you gotta admit, it takes talent to stay viable through several musical eras like he has.
As far as the critics of the song. You really wouldn't want Herb to stand still musically, would you? He'd still be in that garage. I don't like all of Herb's post Brass material either, but you gotta admit, it takes talent to stay viable through several musical eras like he has.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
I sense that some posts "say" that those of us who don't care for RISE are entitled to our opinion, but I also sense that, in fact, isn't really true...we are expected to like RISE because it's Herb Alpert playing it. I love Herb Alpert, but I still do not care for RISE. Period. End.
I do not like the SOUND of RISE. As far as I am concerned, it carries a sound and style of music that I simply do not like. Again, period. End. That's a statement of my personal taste, my personal opinion. I do not like the "urban sound." I do not like "street" sound or style.
I am happy for others to like it if they choose. I do not. Period. End.
i am not telling someone else that it is "wrong" to like it. It is a matter of opinion...I do not like ANY urban sounds. I don't care who does them or how well they are done. Period. End.
It's like saying " I like vanilla ice cream." Some people do and some people don't. It isn't a right vs wrong issue. It's a matter of personal taste, and RISE isn't in my area of preferred personal tastes.
Period. End...
I do not like the SOUND of RISE. As far as I am concerned, it carries a sound and style of music that I simply do not like. Again, period. End. That's a statement of my personal taste, my personal opinion. I do not like the "urban sound." I do not like "street" sound or style.
I am happy for others to like it if they choose. I do not. Period. End.
i am not telling someone else that it is "wrong" to like it. It is a matter of opinion...I do not like ANY urban sounds. I don't care who does them or how well they are done. Period. End.
It's like saying " I like vanilla ice cream." Some people do and some people don't. It isn't a right vs wrong issue. It's a matter of personal taste, and RISE isn't in my area of preferred personal tastes.
Period. End...
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