10 Least Favorite TJB Songs
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Captain Bacardi
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Harry said:
I bet that's not the first time that has been said about Dave!
Capt. Bacardi
Dave
Well-Known Member
OK, now I see what sort of controversy I've once again stirred up around here...
Yes, at the bridge I hear the sound of a bass flute underscoring the main passage; maybe there's not...
A "start and stop" kind'a arrangement somehow worked better in something like "A Taste Of Honey"... And there is that type of a climactic crescendo on "Green Peppers" and a few more o' his songs that I do like, but which I can't right now think of... Here, however, this thing just somehow rubs me wrong...
I was never a true fan of vocalese, much less scat singing, so it took me a while just to get used to Gary McFarland, Gabor Szabo, and Gary McFarland & Gabor Szabo doing that sort'a stuff... That's why even by Herb it is just an acquired taste... (Hey, the vocal(s) on "Warm" doesn't even rank with "The Lonely Bull"...!!!)
Dave
--Definitely going to extremes here, citing what I don't like on Warm and why...!
Yes, at the bridge I hear the sound of a bass flute underscoring the main passage; maybe there's not...
A "start and stop" kind'a arrangement somehow worked better in something like "A Taste Of Honey"... And there is that type of a climactic crescendo on "Green Peppers" and a few more o' his songs that I do like, but which I can't right now think of... Here, however, this thing just somehow rubs me wrong...
I was never a true fan of vocalese, much less scat singing, so it took me a while just to get used to Gary McFarland, Gabor Szabo, and Gary McFarland & Gabor Szabo doing that sort'a stuff... That's why even by Herb it is just an acquired taste... (Hey, the vocal(s) on "Warm" doesn't even rank with "The Lonely Bull"...!!!)
Dave
--Definitely going to extremes here, citing what I don't like on Warm and why...!
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
I still say TIJUANA TAXI and SPANISH FLEA don't belong on this thread. 
David
David
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
audiofile said:
David
Captain Bacardi
Well-Known Member
This is not about what "belongs". This is about personal preference, an individual choice. If someone doesn't like one of your favorite songs then so be it. That's their choice. I don't agree with several songs that made this list, but that's the way it is. I'll keep listening to what I like and skip over what I don't like, just like everyone will be doing.
Capt. Bacardi
Capt. Bacardi
In no particular order:
Crea Mi Amor
Milord
The Great Manolete
Tijuana Sauerkraut
Lemon Tree
Zorba the Greek (except the 45 version)
Without Her
Alone Again Naturally
Flowers on the Wall
Raindrops Keep Falling
Crea Mi Amor
Milord
The Great Manolete
Tijuana Sauerkraut
Lemon Tree
Zorba the Greek (except the 45 version)
Without Her
Alone Again Naturally
Flowers on the Wall
Raindrops Keep Falling
Moritat
Well-Known Member
As the Captain said ... This is not about what "belongs". This is about personal preference. With that in mind, I can honestly say that Tijuana Taxi & Spanish Flea DEFINETLY belong on my list. And if it wasn't for Zorba The Greek, those 2 would have #1 and #2. The only list where you can truthfully say that Tijuana Taxi & Spanish Flea don't belong would be your own.thetijuanataxi said:I still say TIJUANA TAXI and SPANISH FLEA don't belong on this thread.
David
Personally, I think this has been a great thread. Its been very interesting reading everyone's explanations as to why certain songs made their lists.
Dave
Well-Known Member
Well, then, no one man's opinion here is the gospel...
I don't like "Zorba..." but it's a heckuva lot better than "Miss Frenchy Brown", which I really can't stand...
As for "Warm", I would prefer it over the above two, but it's truthfully to me just not a good song or something that I particularly like... To you's it may not mar the album it's on, but to me, it just seems to be a clinker in contrast to the holy grail Warm--the album--is otherwise...
Dave
I don't like "Zorba..." but it's a heckuva lot better than "Miss Frenchy Brown", which I really can't stand...
As for "Warm", I would prefer it over the above two, but it's truthfully to me just not a good song or something that I particularly like... To you's it may not mar the album it's on, but to me, it just seems to be a clinker in contrast to the holy grail Warm--the album--is otherwise...
Dave
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
audiofile said:
Ditto
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
I think this is a great thread...for me, it makes me think critically and evaluate what I actually like, listen to, and why. It makes me focus on the merits of the music itself and not simply the artist.
All those things are important artistic evaluation skills, and would be part of any music appreciation class.
I think it is interesting and stimulating to express my own opinions, and to read and evaluate the opinions of others, and see how they interrelate with my own.
I improve my own abilities to express myself with clarity and precision, to examine my own opinions and thoughts, and to find out what others think about areas of common interest.
Great stuff...IMHO.
All those things are important artistic evaluation skills, and would be part of any music appreciation class.
I think it is interesting and stimulating to express my own opinions, and to read and evaluate the opinions of others, and see how they interrelate with my own.
I improve my own abilities to express myself with clarity and precision, to examine my own opinions and thoughts, and to find out what others think about areas of common interest.
Great stuff...IMHO.
Moritat
Well-Known Member
Some of the songs that made my least liked list are ones I originally liked but grew tired of over the years. After thinking about it, I realized the opposite is true for other TJB songs. There are several tunes that I never really cared for or had an opinion on years back, but as years went by, I grew to really appreciate. One such tune is More & More Amor. Never had any liking for it years back, but today I think its one of the best melodies I ever heard, and is easily my favorite track on Going Places.
Why some songs grow stale and others age well is something I can't explain. Perhaps our musical tastes change as we mature.
Why some songs grow stale and others age well is something I can't explain. Perhaps our musical tastes change as we mature.
I've never been one to focus in on negatives - that's why I haven't really participated - but if it makes others happy to discuss what makes them "unhappy", as long as it's done in a polite a civil fashion with the understanding that one man's trash is another man's treasure, then so be it.
Harry
Harry
Steven J. Gross
Well-Known Member
'Alone Again Naturally'
'Maniac'
'Last Tango in Paris'
'Summertime'
'Fire and Rain'
....still thinking
'Maniac'
'Last Tango in Paris'
'Summertime'
'Fire and Rain'
....still thinking
My list, in order starting from my least favorite:
1) Lemon Tree
2) Peanuts
3) Let it Be Me
4) Crea Mi Amor
5) Ladyfingers
6) Surfin' Senorita
7) Love Is (solo, from "Rise" album)
8 ) I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face
9) Catch a Falling Star
10) I'll Be Back
Note that three of these tracks are from the WCAOD album, and I've seen two of these listed on other people's lists, despite the high success of that album. I guess the album's popularity is due to just the first track (Taste of Honey), and, of course, the album's cover. (My favorite track is Green Peppers.)
I agree with others that "Freight Train Joe" and "Plucky" are not among the TJB's strongest tracks, but they aren't in the bottom ten.
I should also point out that the tracks listed above, while my least favorite, are not BAD. When your music is among the best in the world, even the "worst of the best" is still good.
1) Lemon Tree
2) Peanuts
3) Let it Be Me
4) Crea Mi Amor
5) Ladyfingers
6) Surfin' Senorita
7) Love Is (solo, from "Rise" album)
8 ) I've Grown Accustomed To Her Face
9) Catch a Falling Star
10) I'll Be Back
Note that three of these tracks are from the WCAOD album, and I've seen two of these listed on other people's lists, despite the high success of that album. I guess the album's popularity is due to just the first track (Taste of Honey), and, of course, the album's cover. (My favorite track is Green Peppers.)
I agree with others that "Freight Train Joe" and "Plucky" are not among the TJB's strongest tracks, but they aren't in the bottom ten.
I should also point out that the tracks listed above, while my least favorite, are not BAD. When your music is among the best in the world, even the "worst of the best" is still good.
toeknee4bz
Well-Known Member
Captaindave said:
Well said, and I agree. But speaking out of the 'other side of my mouth', I must say that there will never be a consensus on every selection... The old expression "To each his own..." comes to mind.
Full disclosure regarding 'music appreciation': I was last exposed to Music Theory in 1986. Honestly, I don't know how I passed the class, because I was just hanging on for dear life during the whole thing! All of this constant examining of "how many sharps or flats are in the key of C", etc.,... Forget it. One thing it did teach me, however, is that I don't have any appreciation for the 'mechanics' of composition. I will never be a composer, and if for nothing but that personal discovery, the class was worth taking. Enough about me.
Herb Alpert, for all of his musical accolades, achievement, formal training, etc., has had one distinct, consistent identity in his performance: He Breaks ALL the Rules. Just watch the LIVE AT MONTREUX DVD, and tell me that any formally trained trumpet player 'flops' their fingers all the way across the valves. Most trumpeters I've asked have said you're supposed to put your finger TIPS (not your knuckles) on the valves... Bottom line: WHO CARES? Technique is not his concern, and I couldn't care less either. He just plays what he feels. It just sounds good.
IMHO, the songs in this thread should be evaluated, even negatively, through the mindset of the finished product, not the process. Herb himself once said, "Musical composition isn't a theoretical exercise." I suspect that he feels the same way about the performance itself.
I know there are several legitimate musicians here, and believe me, I respect your superior musical abilities (for the record, I haven't played my guitar in years, so I envy you).
All I'm trying to say is that the musicians on this forum should try and evaluate some of these 'least' favorites from a non-musician perspective. You might be surprised at the differences in your lists.
Tony
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
toeknee4bz said:
I agree completely.
You are quite right about the finger positioning on the valves. Sometimes Herb uses "correct" position and other times he doesn't. But you are right - it doesn't really matter to the outcome.
When I posted my list of songs, and by the way, there are others that could have made the list, I was interested only in the way I reacted emotionally and to some extent, the actual song itself. Some of those songs I would not like no matter who was playing them.
I myself do not place a lot of concern in technical details. Those things are mostly a concern for a student who is trying to learn the fundamentals of the instrument and avoid developing bad habits in the learning process.
The most important things than anyone who plays trumpet must develop is good tone. Much of Herb Alpert's playing demonstrates exemplary tone, especially for his type of instrumental pop music.
You have made a very good post, and I agree with it completely. My listening is based on similar ideas - not technical things. I like what I like because I like what I hear.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
toeknee4bz & Cap'n D --
Yes! Very nice.
The cool thing about music is that, like all art forms, there are seemingly unlimited avenues open for creative exploration.
Although I don an arranger's cap [you know all the lines and the little dots...] for a certain type of expression, at other times it's a wholly organic experience eschewing technical formalities ... As a trumpet soloist, Herb Alpert taught me (more than any other trumpeter) about relaxing the presentation and not working to blow the listener over with technical acumen (-- which, by tradition, is the standard protocol employed by virtually all trumpet soloists). As an arranger, Herb and I seek out different colours; nevertheless, what he did with many of those '60s TjB sides attracts me as a listener -- even though I have no personal interest in creating music that sounds like that.
At the end of the day, "I like what I like" -- which is the aural complement to the old adage: "I'll know it when I see it".
Yes! Very nice.
The cool thing about music is that, like all art forms, there are seemingly unlimited avenues open for creative exploration.
Although I don an arranger's cap [you know all the lines and the little dots...] for a certain type of expression, at other times it's a wholly organic experience eschewing technical formalities ... As a trumpet soloist, Herb Alpert taught me (more than any other trumpeter) about relaxing the presentation and not working to blow the listener over with technical acumen (-- which, by tradition, is the standard protocol employed by virtually all trumpet soloists). As an arranger, Herb and I seek out different colours; nevertheless, what he did with many of those '60s TjB sides attracts me as a listener -- even though I have no personal interest in creating music that sounds like that.
At the end of the day, "I like what I like" -- which is the aural complement to the old adage: "I'll know it when I see it".
toeknee4bz
Well-Known Member
JO:
Good philosophy you have: "Just Be Yourself."
Your commentary ("Herb and I seek out different colours") reminded me of an interview with Acoustic guitarist Earl Klugh back in '99 or 2000. He was asked why he always played acoustic, and rarely (if ever) electric guitar. His response was something along the lines of "I like to hear other people play electric, but acoustic just represents what I am trying to communicate through my own music"...
I think Herb would be proud of you in the sense that you're willing to "just be yourself." At least, that's the impression I got from a Dave Koz Show interview a few years back (SECOND WIND era, I believe). Herb was pontificating the old days, developing his style, and how copycat groups (The Mexican Brass, The Mexicali Brass, San Fernando Brass, etc.) were trying to make a fast buck off of imitation. And how their albums sounded "contrived", whereas his was more honest and natural. I'll shut up, now (I apologize - I have a tendency to prattle on and on...)
BTW/FYI, Earl Klugh covered a WARM track, "Pretty World", in 1979. Definitely NOT a Least Fave!!!
Tony
Good philosophy you have: "Just Be Yourself."
Your commentary ("Herb and I seek out different colours") reminded me of an interview with Acoustic guitarist Earl Klugh back in '99 or 2000. He was asked why he always played acoustic, and rarely (if ever) electric guitar. His response was something along the lines of "I like to hear other people play electric, but acoustic just represents what I am trying to communicate through my own music"...
I think Herb would be proud of you in the sense that you're willing to "just be yourself." At least, that's the impression I got from a Dave Koz Show interview a few years back (SECOND WIND era, I believe). Herb was pontificating the old days, developing his style, and how copycat groups (The Mexican Brass, The Mexicali Brass, San Fernando Brass, etc.) were trying to make a fast buck off of imitation. And how their albums sounded "contrived", whereas his was more honest and natural. I'll shut up, now (I apologize - I have a tendency to prattle on and on...)
BTW/FYI, Earl Klugh covered a WARM track, "Pretty World", in 1979. Definitely NOT a Least Fave!!!
Tony
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Tony, that's precisely why Herb is the most recognizable pop trumpeter in the world...he didn't pattern his playing after any other trumpeter. He's like a Bill Evans or a Thelonious Monk or a Charlie Christian -- or a Burt Bacharach or a Henry Mancini or a Bob Dylan: Herb came on the scene with his own unique vision and style; he was not a derivation of any previous artist. And like those great men listed above, he should be recognized as a point source for artistic inspiration. He surely inspired me -- from age 6 onward!
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