newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Recorded in 1982, apparently.
40th anniversary of "Music, Music, Music"
- Thread starter Without A Song
- Start date
Recorded in 1982, apparently.
CraigGA
Well-Known Member
A wish for sure! As we original fans look toward retirement, this would be a blessing to hear and have. Some have already parted from us. I have always wanted to hear the ones I knew existed. Now, I know there are more still. Just more to yearn. With the great ones who were part of their recordings also gone, it would take a miracle, even though some are already complete. Maybe we could hope for some PBS treasure. With the two left from the Karen's unreleased solo recordings that are great: Love Makin Love To You and Something's Missing - there are enough for a new album, not to mention The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
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tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Richard has seemed reluctant to release new material where he is the lead singer---and yet that was one of the highlights of their pre-1975 albums, and even their live and Christmas albums were the Richard leads, as it reminded people that the Carpenters were a brother and sister group---not just one person.
Over the years it would've been nice if Richard had included in the numerous compilations new material that he himself had recorded. Think of the 1992 Time-Life Christmas With The Carpenters and a new Richard song, like December Morn or Christmas Turned Blue. (Of course we got An Old-Fashioned Christmas on the same album which a lot of people have shot down over the 36 years that that album has been out, and may be why Richard hasn't done anything like that since).
Over the years it would've been nice if Richard had included in the numerous compilations new material that he himself had recorded. Think of the 1992 Time-Life Christmas With The Carpenters and a new Richard song, like December Morn or Christmas Turned Blue. (Of course we got An Old-Fashioned Christmas on the same album which a lot of people have shot down over the 36 years that that album has been out, and may be why Richard hasn't done anything like that since).
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GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
I like the LP, An Old -Fashioned Christmas. It seems to me that the reason it has gotten a bad rap has nothing to do with
Richard performing some "lead" vocal duties--which are actually very good on this LP.
But, for its being a "pop" album, it is simply too instrumental-heavy, not to mention that it is usually "compared"
to its 1978 predecessor, Christmas Portrait (which is perfect in every way, a classic even by 1984 ).
Interestingly enough, I never considered Richard's lead-vocals as a highlight on any Carpenters' album.
But, where he did shine vocally was in those background vocals, those background harmonies.
Those background harmonies represent "the Carpenters" as a duo, not his 'lead' vocals.
By the way, Richard's LP Time (which some have panned) probably did much more to dampen any thought of doing more "leads".
For the record, I have come to hear LP Time as a product of its time, for it could have been no other way (so, it's okay with me ! ).
Richard performing some "lead" vocal duties--which are actually very good on this LP.
But, for its being a "pop" album, it is simply too instrumental-heavy, not to mention that it is usually "compared"
to its 1978 predecessor, Christmas Portrait (which is perfect in every way, a classic even by 1984 ).
Interestingly enough, I never considered Richard's lead-vocals as a highlight on any Carpenters' album.
But, where he did shine vocally was in those background vocals, those background harmonies.
Those background harmonies represent "the Carpenters" as a duo, not his 'lead' vocals.
By the way, Richard's LP Time (which some have panned) probably did much more to dampen any thought of doing more "leads".
For the record, I have come to hear LP Time as a product of its time, for it could have been no other way (so, it's okay with me ! ).
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Please forgive my bluntness but the truth is that Carpenters had one lead vocalist: Karen. She's the only vocalist most have any interest in hearing. IMHO, Richard's vocals were never a highlight. He could sound decent ("I Kept On Loving You" is as good as he gets and I do kinda like that one) and he could sound bad ("Who Do You Love" from "Time"). He's not a lead singer and certainly not fit to sing lead on a record with Karen. He seems quite aware of that which is why we haven't gotten any more of his leads on anything.
Ed
Without A Song
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with your bluntness, Ed, or anyone else's for that matter, on what they think of Richard's lead vocals. One of the things I love about this site is the wide range of opinions when it comes to songs performed by Karen and/or Richard.
I'll always be of the opinion that Richard, while limited in range unlike Karen, had a pleasant voice. I believe he showcased this not only on the oft-cited "I Kept On Loving You," but also on his portion of the oldies segment on "Now and Then," and what I think is a fantastic version of "You'll Never Know."
And last but not least, "Without A Song," where he and Karen traded lines throughout. Because of these and other tunes where I think he sang a good lead, including "Toyland," "Your Wonderful Parade," and "When Time Was All We Had," I will always campaign for the release of all unreleased Carpenters tunes no matter which Carpenter is in the spotlight vocally.
I'll always be of the opinion that Richard, while limited in range unlike Karen, had a pleasant voice. I believe he showcased this not only on the oft-cited "I Kept On Loving You," but also on his portion of the oldies segment on "Now and Then," and what I think is a fantastic version of "You'll Never Know."
And last but not least, "Without A Song," where he and Karen traded lines throughout. Because of these and other tunes where I think he sang a good lead, including "Toyland," "Your Wonderful Parade," and "When Time Was All We Had," I will always campaign for the release of all unreleased Carpenters tunes no matter which Carpenter is in the spotlight vocally.
tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but Richard should’ve been on lead more often. Being a back up singer does not qualify you as being part of a group’s image. If that were so, then we would see tons of additional acknowledged singers tied to different groups or duos. However Richard and Karen were being presented as a Duo, but after “Now & Then” there were no Richard tracks released until “Christmas Potrait”, where he opened the album with “O Come O Come Emmanuel”. And he also had “Carol of the Bells”. And then he sang lead on AOFC and other tracks on that album including his beautiful duet with Karen on “Do You Heat”, which he reprised on “You’re Just In Love”.
Plus back in the early 70’s Richard’s “Druscilla Penny” was released as the A-Side of a 45, and A&M tended to put one of his leads on the B side of their singles, even “Heather”.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
Sorry if it's not really related to 'Music, Music, Music'.
However, choose the version of 'Why Don't That Understand' that best helps you imagine Carpenters performing it..... if any.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
A couple more:-
I think that'll do....
I think that'll do....
Another Son
Well-Known Member
Maybe this is about 'Music, Music, Music' after all, seeing as that special was all about.... music.... and music that influenced Carpenters.
Here's the same song that Carpenters recorded.... Sebastian. Richard says that it worked for Paul Stookie but didn't work for them. There's probably a reason in each case that extra songs haven't been released.... although, on an earlier thread here, Richard is quoted as saying that he'd love to do arrangements for a few of the outtakes from the 'Karen Carpenter' album, if he would be allowed to. He also says that Phil Ramone wasn't that keen on some of those outtakes..... which would be why they remained outtakes, especially if Karen wasn't fully sold on the songs, either.
Anyway, imagine K&R performing this song, 'Sebastian', which remains 'in the can'.... Btw, I guess all these songs have been posted somewhere on here earlier.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
Another song which I believe has a complete lead vocal....I'm presuming, by Karen. Richard has indicated in the past that he likes their recording of it. He says that they recorded it around 1974.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
In the interview with Richard by Yuka that I read, Richard suggests that he's not sure if there's a complete lead for 'I Believe In You' and he also says that it didn't work for them.
It's a Neil Young song.
Actually, from that interview, it's not clear that there is a lead vocal for 'Sebastian', either.
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Good thing he wasn't just that then, right? He was the arranger/orchestrator/producer/keyboard player too. He had his place and rarely ceded those responsibilities to anyone else - never ceding the production (though he did try at one point). He wasn't needed as a lead singer. He stopped doing it altogether save, as you said, a moment on "Christmas Portrait". Totally the right move as we got more Karen leads in the process.
Richard is very talented but lead singing isn't one of his talents. He is in possession of an okay-at-times voice. He had the fortune/misfortune (depending on how one looks at it) of having the greatest female pop singer ever as his sister. As such, I'm glad he realized this and stopped singing lead. She deserved as much attention for her gifts as possible.
Ed
Mark-T
Well-Known Member
Wow~ never heard this song before. Love Petula’s version. I can totally hear this by Karen and Richard. It would have fit nicely on either Horizon (as a break in the midst of such a serious album) or on Hush.
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tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Sorry I disagree. From what I’ve read of their concerts after 73 and even on the LIVE albums, Richard does a number of leads because the Carpenters were being presented as a duo.
Really “Horizon, A Kind of Hush, Passage, MIA, Voice & Lovelines” should’ve been released as Karen Carpenter solo albums without the Carpenters branding.
tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Also, as Richard points out in his notes for “Christmas Portrait”, “Christmas Portrait” (as far as he’s concerned) should’ve been released as a Karen solo album. And if he hadn’t been going through his Qaalude stage, he would contributed more to Hush and Passage, whereas he was more a production person on those albums and not an artistic contributor. So really, even from Richard, those albums are more or less Karen Solo’s.
‘ What was saddening to me then, and even more so now, is that I was at my nadir dealing with the sleeping pill problem. If I were at my best, I could have and would have contributed a lot more in both creativity and spirit to “Hush”, “Passage”, and the first four television specials. By the time Karen and I began recording on the Christmas album, I was not interested in more than production work, and an occasional lead and some minor piano work. Arranging (something I truly enjoy doing, especially with Christmas songs) was turned over, by me, to veterans Peter Knight and Billy May. With Karen’s marvelous leads, combined with an oversize studio orchestra and chorus, terrific arrangements and timeless music, “Christmas Portrait” was, and is, an almost incomparable Christmas album. It was a hit in 1978 and every year succeeding; I receive compliments on it every holiday season. What I should have realized then, although I don’t know if A&M would have gone for it, is that “Christmas Portrait” is Karen’s album, and should have been titled accordingly, not Carpenters. (I did oversee the mixes, of course, but that falls under production.)’
I've never understood that comment by Richard that Christmas Portrait should have been treated as a Karen solo album and I think it essentially misinterprets the meaning of 'solo'. How on earth is it 'Karen's album'?
Granted, due to his personal circumstances at the time, on Christmas Portrait Richard found it necessary to have to relinquish some of the roles he'd nearly always performed on earlier albums, handing over most of the arranging and some of the keyboard playing too. But although he had to delegate these tasks, the end result was I think very similar to what it would have sounded like had he been in a better place in 1978 - and I think some of the arranging would still have been handed over to the likes of Peter Knight and Billy May to give it that authentic old-time sound. So the album was still very much aligned to his creative vision; it's just that for once, he had to enlist more outside help to achieve that vision rather than doing it all himself.
The other issue I have with this misuse of the 'solo' tag is that 'solo' would imply not just Richard doing less (or perhaps no involvement at all), but also Karen doing more, and I don't get much sense that she did contribute more to Christmas Portrait than any earlier album. The extent of her influence outside of the vocals in the creative process is difficult to discern - that credit of 'Associate Producer' implies some input but seems very vague, and it's likely that Richard retained the final say on most if not all aspects of the creative process (not that I'm suggesting Karen was unhappy with that), so there was no more 'Karen' on these albums than on their earlier albums.
The idea of A&M releasing a 'solo' Karen Carpenter album that was still largely under the creative helm of Richard would have made no sense. The only reason they'd have done that is if they thought the rebranding was necesary from a commercial perspective (almost like Berry Gordy changing the name of 'The Supremes' to 'Diana Ross and the Supremes' in 1967 as a way of softening up the audience to Diana going solo a couple of years later without making that leap - and the commercial risks that went with it - straight away). And it seems clear to me that A&M were still behind 'Carpenters' as a musical/commerical act and certainly weren't looking to rebrand it at this point - or to use it as a springboard to launch Karen as a solo artist for real.
As to the idea that the albums from Horizon onwards should have been treated as Karen solos without the Carpenter branding, I refer you to the above argument with a multiple of 1000. Richard's creative brand and input is inherent on all those albums. He may not have been doing any lead vocals on them, but that was completely his decision - it's not as if his lead vocals were a key point and USP of 'Carpenters'!
Portlander
Well-Known Member
It still amazes me how Richard's inner circle which includes the band members, studio technicians, Herb and Jerry, Werner, Joe Osborne, John Bettis, Sherwin, girlfriends and his family could not convince him earlier of his need to seek treatment to kick his quaalude addiction. I realize he was the boss and in charge of the entire Carpenter operation, but when he could barely play the piano and had difficulty not slurring his speech someone needed to step in.
He appeared to be a very decent, logical and approachable guy but who knows what it was really like behind closed doors. To think what was lost during his struggles (let alone Karen's) from the mid to late seventies is so sad. Am happy he pulled through the difficult years and has been a champion for keeping the Carpenter legacy alive and well. He was very gracious and kind when I met him in 1976 and I'll alway appreciate that encounter with him and Karen.
He appeared to be a very decent, logical and approachable guy but who knows what it was really like behind closed doors. To think what was lost during his struggles (let alone Karen's) from the mid to late seventies is so sad. Am happy he pulled through the difficult years and has been a champion for keeping the Carpenter legacy alive and well. He was very gracious and kind when I met him in 1976 and I'll alway appreciate that encounter with him and Karen.
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Disagreement abounds! Richard played, sang background vocals, produced, arranged, orchestrated, and picked the tunes on all those records. He was heavily involved on all of those albums...as a group member would be. Were he only a producer (as he was on the Xmas record), then one can make the case. While Karen has always been the main attraction, he was a definite artistic and vocal presence on every non-seasonal Carpenters' record and thus those records could never be Karen solo records.
As has been said, providing lead vocals is not the only thing that justifies one as a group member.
Ed
tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but on those albums Richard moved into the background. He was no longer part of the front part of the group. They were Karen solo albums. When I think of the Beach Boys, Brian Wilson left the touring group to focus on the group’s albums, but when those albums came out, Brian still had a lead or two on the album. Richard, no, he decided to present himself as a front person for the group in LIVE settings, but on the albums, he chose to go into the background and work behind the scenes and not present the albums as coming from a group, like the pre-1974 albums or the Christmas albums, but as coming from a soloist, like he would do for Veronique, Scott Grimes and Akiko, but this was for Karen. (And when you think of “Lovelines”, while accurate to a degree, the Richard Carpenter-remixed “If I Had You” was issued on CD & Cassette as a Karen solo in 89 in support of “Lovelines”, not the true solo album that wouldn’t be released for another 7 years).
Really, from a commercial standpoint, the Carpenters most successful albums were their 1969-1973 albums & Christmas Portrait/Special Edition. And what’s different with those albums than the 1975-1989 albums? The inclusion of Richard leads, even if they were only instrumentals. Look at ASFY, to date their one album that’s essentially a Greatest Hits package, Richard had 2 leads (1 instrumental, one vocal) and a duet with Karen.
GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
^^Actually, 1969 can not be seen as a year with one of the "most successful albums" from a "commercial standpoint."
LP Offering can hardly qualify as commercially successful.
I'm with Ed, there are other ways to justify oneself as a "group member" besides inclusion of one's lead vocal.
Richard selected the material, produced the records, arranged most of the material, performed on keyboards,
did background harmony for most of the material-- What more is needed ? Surely NOT his lead vocals.
LP Offering can hardly qualify as commercially successful.
I'm with Ed, there are other ways to justify oneself as a "group member" besides inclusion of one's lead vocal.
Richard selected the material, produced the records, arranged most of the material, performed on keyboards,
did background harmony for most of the material-- What more is needed ? Surely NOT his lead vocals.
tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but between 1975 and 1989 Richard was not a front person for the group. We’ve seen other producers do similar things like Sir George Martin of the Beatles or George Tobin with Tiffany. And as I pointed out already, Richard did Veronique, Scott Grimes & Akiko where he did all the same work as he did on the Carpenters albums, including background vocals, but he was not credit nor did he have a lead/duet on any of those albums (compared to his “Time” where he had 3 guest vocalists).
So The 1975-1989 albums should’ve been Karen-only albums.
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Karen had the best female voice in pop music history. She should always have been the only lead singer, IMHO. He's not the least bit capable in that regard and he had no business singing lead on the same albums with her. Few would, to be sure, but he certainly didn't. He's a fantastic background/harmony singer...and that's it. That he finally stopped doing leads on their albums indicates that he realized his mistake. That said, he absolute was a member of the group and should always have been credited as such.
Ed
Mark-T
Well-Known Member
Yes, Karen was the best! When the duo did their famous layered vocals, no one could duplicate their magic.
I go back and forth on whether he should have been doing leads as well when compared to her once in a lifetime voice. Would the same albums with Karen's name only sold more than the duo's? Who knows.
I go back and forth on whether he should have been doing leads as well when compared to her once in a lifetime voice. Would the same albums with Karen's name only sold more than the duo's? Who knows.
