KC Documentary Part 2

[newvillefan]

I'll keep this brief, but the second part of last nights documentary was even more revealing than the first.

My jaw just dropped at Itchy Ramone's comment that Richard spent considerable time round the table with Herb and Jerry to discuss ways to get the solo album dropped once it was finished.

Her parting shot was 'what more can you say'. Absolutely unbelievable.

Stephen

 

[Jeff]

I've said it before and according to Mrs. Ramone I'm not too far off base. The solo album was more than just an ordinary record...it was liberation and freedom from the chains that bound her. Interpret how you will.

I miss you Karen,

February 04, 2004,

Jeff

 

[ullalume]

LIberation and Freedom? It was also very mediocre pop-music. The depth and heart of her music with Richard was a step up, and she knew it, I mean "My Body keeps Changing My Mind" for fucks sake.

Neil

 

[Geographer]

I don't know why, but I am surprised each time the worse is assumed in regard to Richard. I thought Itche Ramone's comments were spiteful and quite unfair. If she thinks Richard conspired to keep Karen's solo project off the market, then she should have just said so. Could it possibly be, maybe, that Richard, Jerry Moss, and Herb Alpert met at length to see how they could save Karen from a commercial disaster? What if the album was released (with all the disco-esque tunes when disco was out) and it flopped critically and commercially? What would that effect have had on Karen's psyche? They (A&M) did give Karen the option to go back into the studio and cut some more tunes, but it was KAREN who ultimately decided to let it go and make another Carpenters record. Believe it or not, Karen does have some responsibility in what ultimately happened. Dare I say it, that maybe Karen is the "villian" (if there really is one) because of what she put Richard, Harold, and Agnes through? Maybe a topic for another time.

I did think the psychologist had an excellent point, that all the yelling at Karen to get her to eat was Karen's way of asserting herself and getting attention from those closest to her on her terms. Having met Agnes before, I never believed she did not love Karen. However, I don't think that it is out of the realm of belief that Agnes was closer to Richard where Harold was closer to Karen. Sometimes family dynamics are like that.

Ultimately, had Karen lived, I think she would have beat her condition once and for all. She did finally admit she had a problem and sought treatment (albeit not the best treatment) and that was half the battle. And, sometimes, people get tired of their own neurosis and realize that their self-destructive behavior is not gaining them that which they seek. I think Karen would have finally realized that, if she hadn't already by the time she passed.

I guess we will never know for sure, but I find it fruitless after 21 years to keep pointing fingers at Richard and Agnes. As my aunt says in matters like this, "dead and burried." No sense in rehashing what can't be changed.

Anyway, I think Itche Ramone has it in for Richard. And that's unfortnate.

 

[Jeff]

Whether or not KAREN CARPENTER may have been a success or not she STILL deserved 1: recognition over " silence" and 2: the opportunity to spread her wings. I am grateful to the solo outing as it has provided MORE K music and is an indelible link in her legacy. Ultimately Karen WAS responsible and made some tragic choices...however, in what ever form I'm glad that the "music" lives on.

 

[Mark-T]

Last night, I once again listened to the solo album after not hearing it for awhile. Yes, some things were trendy and dated. Some things were excellent. It was a fun listen. It was also one that made my wonder "what if". In my opinion, not mediocre at all, not entirely wonderful, but certainly alot of fun!

Mark

 

[alpertfan]

ullame and Geographer:
I agree with you both. Unfortunately, I guess because of status, not many people want to put blame for self-inflicted problems on celebrities. I've said it before and I'll say again (though I'm not the first who has said it): The person has to WANT to help themselves. Nobody forces you to be what you are, psychological-wise, physical, and whatever the @&%* else. The documentaries seem to point out that she couldn't handle the pressure. Well, if you can't handle what the job entails, you shouldn't do it. The average singer/musician would probably answer that by saying, "That's easy for you to say! You're not constantly touring, or in the recording studio until all hours of the night, or making public appearances on demand". But that's just the point. We choose our careers by first asking ourselves, "Can I really handle all this?" If we know we can, then we go for it. If not, something else is chosen. And I don't think that anybody "conspired" to anything. I'm no music exec, but I do know, that that's how the music biz is. The artist does the album, but the ultimate decision isn't theirs, or the producer's, or the engineer's, or the side musicians, but the executives of the label. If they like what they hear, then the project sees the light of day. Lastly, what is this business about "being in chains"? If Karen Carpenter, or Herb Alpert, or Jerry Moss, or anyone felt that way, why did The Carpenters exist in the first place?

 

[Bruno]

I agree fully with what Jeff said in his first posting here: The solo album was Karen's try to free herself from the repressive family chains that bound her.

Alpertfan, if you think, persons with mental illnesses can overcome their problems by just an act of good will, you don't know a thing about mental illnesses or about people who suffer terrible from them.

Bruno
shocked by so much non-understanding

 

[song4u]

I guess you could say I can see it from both points of view.

I believe that noone was "responsible" for Karen's death except Karen herself. She was an adult who had ample opportunity and money to get treatment for herself over many years. The Coleman book mentioned that she was absorbed with the book that Steven Levenkron had written about anorexia, so she wasn't ignorant about the problem. I do understand first hand how hard it is to be in the grips of a mental illness, but others' lack of caring, or over-caring was not ultimately responsible for her decisions. EVERYONE around her tried to get her to go for help of some kind. Even after her treatment, it was her decision to leave the hospital in New York early against medical advice.

I also believe that when you hear the same stories (about Karen) over and over again from various people who have nothing to gain from the telling, that they probably have the ring of truth, and there really were some serious problems within that family. You don't have to be a psychiatrist to see that a mother who screams at a daugher with anorexia to eat, yet tells her that psychiatry isn't a suitable option for treatment, is going to be a problem. And family problems do not mean that family members do not love each other. But sometimes they love in a toxic way. Now, if she were my sister, I'm sure I wouldn't want all of this to be public knowledge either. I would want her memory preserved as being one of the greatest singers of our time. And that is how I choose to remember Karen.

 

[Bruno]

To love somebody in a toxic way, is a good description. Thank you, Sharon, for sharing this thought.

Bruno

 

[Chris]

It's true that Karen was ultimately responsible for herself. It's sad that she was not able to harness enough personal strength to overcome he own feelings of inadequacy. She did have an uphill battle though, not the least of which was the type of family situation she was in. It's very hard to find worth in yourself, and assert yourself to have your own life when you have parents who show their love conditionally as a means of control. Yes, her parents loved her very much, but you can be sure that her mother used guilt to control her children. We all more or less want our parents' approval and love. It's where we get our first picture of ourselves. When that approval and love is withheld as a means of controlling the child it can be very insidious. I've had first hand experience with it, myself. Karen was trying to keep her head above water, have her own life, and still please the people around her.

I've spoken personally with two people who were very close to her and the family. Both have expressed what we have been hearing from so many others in terms of her having to deal with a very controlling and manipulative family. Karen's marriage to someone with whom she did not fit with was a direct result of her not listening to her own heart for so many years. She gave up her own desires in love through the years to please her family.

Yes, I do believe Karen was responsible for herself, but I think that you can't help but feel a bit sorry for her when you look at some of the dynamics in her life and the inner struggles she was dealing with. She never felt that she was even pretty. In truth, she possessed beauty, talent, self assurance, great personality, sense of humor, etc. But in her own eyes looking inward it was not how she saw herself. She was the tomboy who was thrown into the spotlight before she even knew who she was. Her enormous talent was herald by so many very early on. The problem with that was, she was not so sure of her "talent". She did not see herself objectively. I think that clearer picture was coming in time, but she was overcome by her problems and lost her life before she could free herself within and without. If only she could have truly seen herself through our eyes. I think now she probably does. What happened to Karen, the way she literally ate away at herself until her death, was bound to happen as long as she continued to live for other people instead of herself. She was too sensitive a person inside to live a lie and get away with it unharmed. There is a great lesson in her life for those who allow others, or use others as excuses not to be true to oneself.

 

[song4u]

There is a great lesson in her life for those who allow others, or use others as excuses not to be true to oneself.

There is also a good lesson in how we treat our children. We should never withhold love and proper praise, or neglect telling them how special and wonderful they are. Life is checks and balances. We all need positive reinforcement to balance the knocks we get in life. Don't get me wrong; I do feel sad that Karen didn't seem to get that. But no matter who we are or how we grew up, we all have to eventually take control of our own lives. As you said, "be true to oneself".

 

[Chris]

But no matter who we are or how we grew up, we all have to eventually take control of our own lives.

Very true, indeed.

and even though I talk of all the obstacles Karen had in her way, I still realize that most of her problems stemmed from her basic inner workings and the way she perceived things.

She was a good person at heart though, and beautiful in so many ways. I'm grateful that we have all been lucky enough to experience her gifts in our lifetimes.

 

[mr J.]

Liberation and freedom?If you listen to Karen's solo album very carefully,you can hear the sound of a lonely,love-starved woman who's dying to have a man make love to her.The lyrics in most of those songs depict a woman who's desperate, insecure, and sexually unfulfilled.There's nothing liberating about that.To the contrary,it makes Karen sound pathetic.And I can absolutely understand why Richard and A&M were so opposed to that album being released.

 

[alpertfan]

mr J.-
Thank you!

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Well I think that is a very cruel way of putting it.

I'm with Karen on that one, she was proud of what she made & even phoned Richard during the sessions to say how challenging laying these tracks were. For example Richard stated she called him from New York (in reference to the song, "If I Had You") and she said how much effort this imaginative vocal arrangement called for, as the listener can see, it was all worth it. As a listener, I hear a professional sounding Karen that knew how to sing a song & make it her own, she was living out in these songs what she had hoped for in life.

Karen thought it was great & I agree with her 100%

 

[Harry]

Karen's solo album remains one of the most controversial items in the Carpenters' canon. Many love it, many hate it, and there are a few that have little or no opinion about it at all.

That's why forums like this exist - so we can all express our own opinions. I've always maintained that given the climate of 1980, and the Carpenters' own image problems, this album would have done little to improve the situation, and it had the possibility of making things worse. My gut feelings, having lived through that time, and in the radio biz, are that the album would NOT have been a success, no matter how well we all might like it today.

I personally find the album to have some rather pleasant moments, and a few uncomfortable items (disco). I am happy that it was released and that we can all discuss it intelligently.

Harry
NP: KAREN CARPENTER

 

[Rudy]

I think had the solo album been released in 1977, 1978 or so, it would have been a modest hit. That Rod Temperton sound was also popular on Michael Jackson's Off The Wall, George Benson's Give Me The Night and countless others, not to mention Heatwave, of which Temperton was a member. 1980 was too late for anything disco; Herb Alpert's "Rise" was a hit late in the disco era, as interest started to taper off, and did well, but by 1980, some of the bands drifted back into R&B, and the disco one-hit wonders disappeared. You figure A&M would have had to pull singles off the album through 1980 and 1981, and they would not have been well received, some of the songs being almost dated at that point.

 

[song4u]

That's why forums like this exist - so we can all express our own opinions. I've always maintained that given the climate of 1980, and the Carpenters' own image problems, this album would have done little to improve the situation, and it had the possibility of making things worse. My gut feelings, having lived through that time, and in the radio biz, are that the album would NOT have been a success, no matter how well we all might like it today.

I share your opinion on the probable lack of success of the album, had it been released in 1980, Harry. No matter how much talent she had, and how polished the recordings, it was too much of a departure from what people expected from the Karen Carpenter of the 70's. They may have liked albums with songs of that caliber from other artists, but I don't think it would have been well received from Karen. I don't think the reaction would have been "Oh, I guess she's not such a Goody-Two-Shoes". It would more likely have been "What does Miss Goody Two Shoes think she's doing singing songs like that?" Remember Bette Midler used to parody her in her stage show. In my opinion, a lot of the Carpenters audience would not have been open to the content of this album. I am glad that Richard has graciously released it for those of us who want to hear everything we can that Karen recorded - as well as all of the other previously unreleased material.

I don't remember if it was in the Coleman bio or in an interview, but I remember Richard saying that sometimes he wishes that the solo album would have been released at that time. Then no matter how it was received, people wouldn't constantly be discussing it with him and asking about it.

Phil Ramone once said in an interview, with regard to Karen's choice of songs being believable coming from her, (to Karen) "Are you having a catharsis, or are we going to make an album?" I think she was doing both.

 

[Rockduo]

Last night, I once again listened to the solo album after not hearing it for awhile. Yes, some things were trendy and dated. Some things were excellent. It was a fun listen. It was also one that made my wonder "what if". In my opinion, not mediocre at all, not entirely wonderful, but certainly a lot of fun!

Mark

I thought Phil Ramone's comments about the recording process were interesting. Especially the one explaining how he wanted to avoid overdubbing Karen's lead as she was used to doing on Carpenters albums. Just have her sing it truly solo. The effect of that hit home when "Make Believe It's Your First Time" played all the way through. Haven't listened to that version in awhile. When Karen crescendoes into one of its long notes and holds it loud...*goose bumps* Much better than the redone, C's-style version on Voice Of The Heart, IMHO.

 

[cam89]

Hi All,
I was listening to this documentary and it kind of surprised me. It is sad to hear how her solo album was percieved. I mean, this was a labor of love for her. She put a lot of work on this project. And it is interesting to know that of all 12 selections on the Karen Carpenter album, that 10 of the tracks are WRITTEN by a man. So the songs she was singing, were written by a man and his thoughts on how a woman would feel...
You hear alot of people think that had the album been released it would not have been a hit. Well, it was released 16 years after it was recorded...and recieved both critical acclaim and negative thoughts. Well had Richard Carpenter's TIME been released 16 years after 1987...then, probably the same thing...it would have recieved negative attention. I mean, Karen's voice was a wonderful thing. That was her saving grace. There has never been another singer quite like Karen since her passing. And personally, I like some songs on Richard's TIME. But I prefer Karen's solo album. And also enjoy the selections of the unreleased solo songs too. Amazing stuff.
I just feel bad that she was forced into shelving the album. But at least she had the chance to record her album.

My thoughts,
Cameron

 

[Dave60640]

For what it's worth, I believe that ALL of us have a personal and protective respect for Karen and any body of work her voice produced. However, I seem to recall 3 things that would have surely hurt the solo efforts had they been released in 1980. They are:
*The (sometimes violent) end of the disco era and ALL things disco. Remember the various "disco-burning" parties held at this time?
*Karen's 10 year old public image.
*The press' unforgiving and often brutal way of reviewing PEOPLE when a new RECORDING comes out.
Please do not get me wrong, I love the solo efforts, but I shudder to think what the press would have said and how the public would've reacted had the KC project gone ahead- AT THAT TIME. Sure, there may have been 1 or 2 minor hits and it could've been brushed aside for a new Carpenters album. But the damage would be done and could've counted against public opinion of future Carpenters releases. It quite easily could've become a case of "Oh great! Now what??!!"
I think Richard, Herb, Jerry (both of them) and others felt that the level of material -not her performance- was well beneath what the public expected and demanded from Karen Carpenter. By this time she was being regarded (if not told) in the industry as one of the best pop vocalists ever.
I whole-heartedly agree that, while fun and different, the solo album needed to be shelved- at that time.

 

[engineer]

It's interesting that those who feel strongly that Karen's solo album would have been a big hit in 1980 are all younger -- most not old enough to have been born or to remember much about the pop music scene in 1980.

For those of you who aren't old enough to remember, you don't know how quickly disco went out of fashion. The Bee Gees went from being the top act in the country to the biggest laughing stocks in a very short period of time.

Barry Manilow fell from grace rather hard at the same time. He was a good example of an artist whose popularity was already waning (like the Carpenters), and an unfortunate choice of material for an album in 1980 just turned him into the butt of jokes instead of renewing his career.
Very few artists who had big hits in the disco era survived (as top-charting artists, at least) into the post-disco period of the early '80s. The record-buying public quickly embraced a new sound (think Blondie) and then went crazy for the British new wave (Duran Duran), leaving Donna Summer in the dust.

Dan

 

[Geographer]

Dave60640 wrote:

I think Richard, Herb, Jerry (both of them) and others felt that the level of material -not her performance- was well beneath what the public expected and demanded from Karen Carpenter.

I could not agree more. After listening to Mr. Ramon's comments about the meetings he had with A&M and Karen, I think the mistake was wanting the album to sound like Donna Summer. Nothing against Donna Summer, but you know who sings Donna Summer well? DONNA SUMMER!

Karen should NEVER been "allowed" to go in the studio and try to sound like someone else. For that, I think Phil Ramon should take some responsibility. After all, he was the producer. Karen and her voice were the type that DEFINED a new sound, not copied other artists' styles or gimmicks. The one thing they should have brought over from the "Carpenter's sound" is the timelessness of the material, instead creating somthing that was destined to be dated before its release. Also, I think the material should have conveyed "maturity" rather than "sexuality." That seems to be confused a lot by people in the entertainment arena. I get the sense, each time I listen to the Karen's Solo album, that Phil Ramon did not understand the phenominal voice he had in the studio with him. As the producer, he should have been more assertive in the selection of material and steer Karen away from "trendy" and toward class and matutity. Karen deserved better.

Solo album for solo album, Richard's TIME is superior, in my opinion, precisely because of the material. Now that's just my opinion.

 

[Mark-T]

"TIME" was not at all a stretch, except that Richard was without Karen. Of course, this is just my opinion. At least Karen tried something different. New sounds, new styles, mixed with the familiar. TIME is a good b- album,
I think. Some good stuff, some mediocre. Just a sound that they already did.

Mark