Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[Mike Blakesley]

The comment was NOT about her voice at all, but about everything EXCEPT her voice: the background instrumentation, which would have been right at home with any other classic vocalist (Sinatra, Como, Bennett, etc.). Other soft rock performers during the same era like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, and such, tended to be far less orchestrated and more focused on piano/guitar, where the Carpenters overall sound was piano/orchestra based.

This is one of those arguments that has no winners. I mean, Gary Wright is considered a rock singer with several large hits, but most of them have no guitars at all! (And he's not in the HoF either.)

 

[crescentnoon]

The comment was NOT about her voice at all, but about everything EXCEPT her voice: the background instrumentation, which would have been right at home with any other classic vocalist (Sinatra, Como, Bennett, etc.). Other soft rock performers during the same era like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, and such, tended to be far less orchestrated and more focused on piano/guitar, where the Carpenters overall sound was piano/orchestra based.

This is one of those arguments that has no winners. I mean, Gary Wright is considered a rock singer with several large hits, but most of them have no guitars at all! (And he's not in the HoF either.)

My apologies for misinterpreting your comment and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it better. Thank you.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

They have a somewhat small 'current artists' section and during my visit this past summer, Sam Smith was included in it. I couldn't walk by fast enough.
Carpenters don't need the Hall for their legacy and I maintain that they are classier and more musically talented than the Hall's usual suspects.
YouTube will do more for their legacy than a Rock Hall acknowledgement ever will.

The Hall will be adding on a section to the building in the coming years - I believe in a section of the open area between the building and the Great Lakes Science Center. Maybe they can focus more on the music instead of the 'cool' clothes and other random memorabilia that is currently displayed in a somewhat disorganized, crowded manner.

The sales bump an artist’s catalog gets after induction says otherwise. Heck, Cheap Trick got a 2-album major label deal out of it.

I know the fans want Carpenters in the HOF (even those who “don’t care”). However, Richard made VERY soft music with only occasional edge and groove. I won’t pretend to know what their criteria is but it can’t be that. Karen made it work for a few albums and in turn revealed herself to be the finest female pop singer ever. Richard knows it and we do too. I know this won’t be a popular thing to say but KAREN made this work. If Richard had paired his arrangements with anyone else, it wouldn’t have worked. In fact, he tried to a few times (Dionne, Dusty, Scott Grimes, female whose name escapes me, and even himself) and no one was interested. It only worked because of Karen. Karen is gone. Once she was, Richard’s career was effectively over.

I contend that it’s the softness of the arrangements that have kept Carpenters out of the HOF. Only time will tell if the HOF overlooks that at some point. If they do, it’ll be because of Karen’s voice and the way it’s influenced many other singers (male and female) even decades after she’s passed.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

"Vocals and instrumentals were "too polished" making them sound more like easy-listening than rock & roll. Putting aside Karen's spectacular voice for a moment, listen to virtually any other "soft" act that's in the Hof, like Carole King or Joni Mitchell, and compare the overall sound."

After reading this, it's just like... Sorry, Karen! Your voice was too perfect to be in the Hall of Fame! You shouldn't have put so much effort into making it sound the way you did!

I get the point you're making, but, really...

I understand your frustration - and it does boggle the mind to realize that many millions of people around the world loved the Carpenter's music precisely because it was polished and so easy to listen to - in other words, highly creative and thoroughly professional to the highest musical degree - and they adored Karen and her spectacular and perfect voice - the message from the Hall has always been, in effect, that they just weren't good enough to be inducted (although there were other nefarious excuses) - but the hard, cold truth may be that the Carpenters were just too damn good for the Hall, which never knew how to handle them or what to do with them - or how they were going to explain to the power elites how the Carpenters ever got in...but in the end it doesn't matter that much because their place in the history of music is firmly established.

 

[rockdoctor]

Musicians become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording, so Carpenters' first eligibility would have been in 1994.



Richard has too much class to do that.



Well, lessee here, this year was Kate Bush, Sheryl Crow, Missy Elliott, George Michael, Willie Nelson, Rage Against the Machine and the Spinners.

2022: Pat Benatar, Duran Duran, Eminem, Eurythmics, Dolly Parton, Lionel Richie and Carly Simon.

2021: Foo Fighters, Jay-Z, The Go-Gos, Carole King, Todd Rundgren, and Tina Turner.


All looks pretty solid to me.

I always wondered why Carole King was snubbed for so many years as an artist. She should have been one of the first women inducted. Her eligibility could actually have been earlier since she was recording in the 60's. I believe that The Carpenters should be inducted as well as many other artists of the rock and roll era that are continually omitted. Some examples- Petula Clark- Not rock but the most successful of the female artists of the British Invasion. The 5th Dimension-Great album and singles sales and quality singing. The Association-Great vocals and songwriting. Sergio Mendes& Brasil'66- Sergio is the most successful of the Brazilian artists. Diana Ross as a solo-what gives there? Barbra Streisand-most successful woman singer of all time-again, what gives? Judy Collins- From the same era as Joan Baez and quality albums but ignored. I think The Pointer Sisters were quality artists that should be inducted.

 

[JohnFB]

The 5th Dimension-Great album and singles sales and quality singing. Barbra Streisand-most successful woman singer of all time...

Yes, absolutely - music not exactly Rock? Who gives a good crap - talent like this should not be excluded from any Hall of Fame...

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Yes, absolutely - music not exactly Rock? Who gives a good crap - talent like this should not be excluded from any Hall of Fame...

Again, their criteria is not Rock music; it's the Rock era. It's about a time period, not a genre of music. They should long since have changed the name to Music Hall of Fame as this has thrown many off for years.

I think it'll be interesting to see the shift in the selection of inductees we'll get as a result of Jann Wenner's exit from the board. We may have seen some of that this year already. There's no arguing Karen's influence on vocalists - male and female - who have followed. While the genesis of Carpenters' vocal arrangements come from elsewhere, Carpenters' did have their own sound. Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis and others have spoken of the influence of Richard's vocal arrangements on the sound they came up with (listen to Janet Jackson's "Come Back to Me" for evidence). Karen is Carpenters' calling card for sure but that vocal sound doesn't exist without Richard's arranging and vocal sound. There really is no reason not to induct them based on this and I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen at some point.

Ed

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Here’s the aforementioned Janet Jackson tune. Note the intro vocal stacks. Jimmy Jam has copped to Carpenters’ influence on the way Terry Lewis and he arrange vocals. It’s unmistakable here.



Ed

 

[JohnFB]

Again, their criteria is not Rock music; it's the Rock era. It's about a time period, not a genre of music. They should long since have changed the name to Music Hall of Fame as this has thrown many off for years.
...

But the Rock Era is, loosely, that period of time during which Rock music dominated - the Rock time period is named after the predominate genre of music within it - if the intention was to honor only Rock musicians and artists then they should not have inducted any artist performing other genres - but if their mission was to honor artists from multiple disciplines or genres of "popular music" then - agreed - they should not have called it the Rock Hall...

The original mission was Rock exclusively, but the mission became muddled and bastardized and finally ignored, and we've slowly morphed to a hodge-podge or smorgasbord of genres/artists...I'm all for "Music Hall of Fame".

 

[newvillefan]

The original mission was Rock exclusively, but the mission became muddled and bastardized and finally ignored, and we've slowly morphed to a hodge-podge or smorgasbord of genres/artists...I'm all for "Music Hall of Fame".

Well said. Pretty much my sentiments.

 

[AM Matt]

Music video for "Come Back To Me":

 

[Mike Blakesley]

But the Rock Era is, loosely, that period of time during which Rock music dominated - the Rock time period is named after the predominate genre of music within it - if the intention was to honor only Rock musicians and artists then they should not have inducted any artist performing other genres - but if their mission was to honor artists from multiple disciplines or genres of "popular music" then - agreed - they should not have called it the Rock Hall...

The original mission was Rock exclusively, but the mission became muddled and bastardized and finally ignored, and we've slowly morphed to a hodge-podge or smorgasbord of genres/artists...I'm all for "Music Hall of Fame".

Music Hall wouldn’t work either because thats too generic. That could mean anybody in any era at any time in any genre. They should just add “Era” and call it the Rock Era Hall of Fame.”

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Music Hall wouldn’t work either because thats too generic. That could mean anybody in any era at any time in any genre. They should just add “Era” and call it the Rock Era Hall of Fame.”

I suggested a few weeks ago "Popular (or Pop) Music Hall of Fame". Covers most of what's in there (there's very little in the way of obscurities---and those can be cited as influential artists).

 

[Matthew S]

I suggested a few weeks ago "Popular (or Pop) Music Hall of Fame". Covers most of what's in there (there's very little in the way of obscurities---and those can be cited as influential artists).

Or just “building full of music stuff.”

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Or just “building full of music stuff.”

Oh, yeah. That'd be swell.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I suggested a few weeks ago "Popular (or Pop) Music Hall of Fame". Covers most of what's in there

Yeah but that's still too vague. They need a name that nails it to a particular time frame. Popular Music could also include classical, opera, jazz, zydeco, anything.

 

[JohnFB]

I suggested a few weeks ago "Popular (or Pop) Music Hall of Fame". Covers most of what's in there (there's very little in the way of obscurities---and those can be cited as influential artists).

"Popular Music" takes in quite a variety of genres and styles over a rather extended period of time, from Colonial America thru today - but more commonly it encompasses mostly the music that has been widely favored during the Modern Era, perhaps the last 100 years or so, and should absolutely include the singers, musicians and composers associated with the wonderful music of The Great American Songbook period, roughly 1925 to 1955 and perhaps beyond. Some - myself included - consider this the best music ever produced, from the standpoint of the quality of its melodies and lyrics. The Big Band Era is included in this wider period.

Is there a Hall of Fame for this great music? If not, it certainly should be included in any "Popular" Hall...

 

[newvillefan]

Here’s the aforementioned Janet Jackson tune. Note the intro vocal stacks. Jimmy Jam has copped to Carpenters’ influence on the way Terry Lewis and he arrange vocals. It’s unmistakable here.

Same record label too . I’ve always thought this to be the most beautiful of all her recordings and it’s on one of my Spotify playlists even today. I had the white picture sleeve UK 45 and was amazed to hear her singing the same song in Spanish on the B-side ‘Vuelve A Mi’.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Yeah but that's still too vague. They need a name that nails it to a particular time frame. Popular Music could also include classical, opera, jazz, zydeco, anything.

You've just named four of the least popular types of music in America in the current century.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Yeah but that's still too vague. They need a name that nails it to a particular time frame. Popular Music could also include classical, opera, jazz, zydeco, anything.

None of those genres of music are particularly popular.

Ed

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I was teasing, a little. My point was, just about every kind of music was popular at some point. There are "disco" artists in the RnRHoF but that music isn't exactly popular these days either. That's why if they want to keep the focus on the "Rock Era," they need some kind of guardrail to delineate that. (I'm amazed to have had to go into this much explanation on this really simple thing!)

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I was teasing, a little. My point was, just about every kind of music was popular at some point. There are "disco" artists in the RnRHoF but that music isn't exactly popular these days either. That's why if they want to keep the focus on the "Rock Era," they need some kind of guardrail to delineate that. (I'm amazed to have had to go into this much explanation on this really simple thing!)

It is odd, I agree. Especially since it’s already been delineated: “Rock Around The Clock” signaled the beginning of The Rock Era and it continues to this day. That was the first time a contemporary song went to the top of the charts. It really is that simple. Prior to that, it was Big Band and Great American Standards. While it began with Rock music, it’s gone on to delineate the time period from then forward.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

If I was a moderator I’d be saying this thread has now run its course

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

If I was a moderator I’d be saying this thread has now run its course

Agreed. We've definitely gone through why it's the RRHOF. We can now just hope we'll see Carpenters take their rightful place there sooner than later.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

If I was a moderator I’d be saying this thread has now run its course

Come on now - it was only started 18 years ago in 2005 - we've barely scratched the surface and have only made every good point less than 2 dozen times - and we still haven't got R & K into the Hall yet...