The remixing could be due to maybe one of two things - either Phil re-evaluated how he thought the original mixes sounded and decided they needed something else or he did it to maybe appease Richard to finally release it with his blessing. I could be completely wrong on both accounts but somethings going on if he says remixed and then claims that they are how Karen wanted.
Solo Album and Single Success
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The remixing could be due to maybe one of two things - either Phil re-evaluated how he thought the original mixes sounded and decided they needed something else or he did it to maybe appease Richard to finally release it with his blessing. I could be completely wrong on both accounts but somethings going on if he says remixed and then claims that they are how Karen wanted.
Actually, several responses had to be hidden from public view by the mods for use of inappropriate language (we're a passionate bunch). Not to mention, there seemed to be increasing animosity among some of the thread contributors, and we felt the overall discussion had run its course.
It likely was mixed again at some point in early 1980 after the initial playback, and this was documented somewhere along the way, albeit with Karen's approval.
Technology had advanced somewhat between 1980 and 1996, so the album likely sounded much better processed through the updated gear.
OK, let me straighten out the promo-wallet thing.
First, yes, I do own one, and yes, that's the one posted on the Recording Resource. It's a flexible plastic wallet with a cloth-like insert in between the two faces of the envelope/wallet.
The insert that's posted above is a glossy sheet of paper, exactly sized for a CD jewel case at 4.75" by 4.75". It slides into between the clear face on one side and the cloth-like center part.
The CD then sits on the other side, and there's a dip in the plastic face to allow your fingers to reach the center hole of the CD.
If you look carefully, you can see the tiny catalog number at the bottom of the back-side of this paper insert. It says 31454 0588 2 ADV. The ADV stands for "advance". This must have been what was sent out to radio before the final artwork was finished, sort of like a CD version of a test pressing.
The disc that's in this wallet is the standard KAREN CARPENTER CD, no different at all from the regular one I own. There is no "ADV" on the disc.
First, yes, I do own one, and yes, that's the one posted on the Recording Resource. It's a flexible plastic wallet with a cloth-like insert in between the two faces of the envelope/wallet.
The insert that's posted above is a glossy sheet of paper, exactly sized for a CD jewel case at 4.75" by 4.75". It slides into between the clear face on one side and the cloth-like center part.
The CD then sits on the other side, and there's a dip in the plastic face to allow your fingers to reach the center hole of the CD.
If you look carefully, you can see the tiny catalog number at the bottom of the back-side of this paper insert. It says 31454 0588 2 ADV. The ADV stands for "advance". This must have been what was sent out to radio before the final artwork was finished, sort of like a CD version of a test pressing.
The disc that's in this wallet is the standard KAREN CARPENTER CD, no different at all from the regular one I own. There is no "ADV" on the disc.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
Yes, the cd is much better than the cassette tape I got from one of the associates of Phil Ramone in 1987. He had some good stories of the sessions, and my jaw dropped when I heard Make Believe It’s your First Time in its original form that evening. Can’t repeat what I said, but he agreed. I was so grateful to get that tape. I only played it for about 4 people as a promise not to share. No copies. I was so relieved when it finally was officially released. It was like keeping a really big secret. I did call Paul Grein at the LA Times though. I knew he was a huge fan. Fortunately he already had a copy too.
Mark-T
Well-Known Member
I had always want to hear Still Crazy since I had read about it in Billboard around 1980. Mentioned it often to a few friends of it being the track I wanted to hear most. One day in 1989, it appeared in my mailbox - one song- and if I remember correctly, no return address. I played it over and over all day long!
And this was a year before it was on From the Top, correct? I wonder, if it was one of your friends who did it, how they got their hands on it to give to you.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Mixed, remixed, Quincy Jones thrown in for good measure along the way...cancelled; released with amended artwork; several versions of events from Herb Alpert alone about its cancellation. The whole thing to this day still intrigues me.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
This is just a very cool item for the front and back sleeves alone. Until today I didn’t even know of its existence.
GDBY2LV
Well-Known Member
I’m guessing maybe because it was going around the Hollywood circuit and they were afraid of bootlegs? I never saw any in Goldmine though. This was long before EBay. I only got my tape because I was friends with a guy who contracts composers for film scores in Los Angeles. The guy who had it worked at the recording studios, and mentioned he had this unreleased album. My friend told him about me, and they invited me down to listen to it. This was before CDs too. He had a DAT machine with cassette copier. He made the tape while we listened to it. I was like a 5 year old at Christmas. One the best nights ever. I think what Harry has is extremely rare. The guy on EBay that released the “New York Sessions” as he called them, used a good color scanner and made the same exact cover for his disc. No writing of any kind on the inside. Blank cd-r. Harry’s original is only the 2nd one I’ve seen. So cool!
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tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
I couldn't find any other thread about Karen's album on the forum that hasn't been locked, so this is as good a place as any to post a couple of questions. (I also find it hard to believe that this thread has also been locked, since it's an official album thread and the content is hardly scandalous).
Anyway, I caught my eye on a particular part of the solo album liner notes that includes the following information (lifted online from here):
Remixed by Phil Ramone & Jim Boyer
Originally Mastered at Sterling Sound by Ted Jensen
Mastered at A&M Mastering Studios by Dave Collins
Question 1: I'm assuming "Remixed by Phil Ramone & Jim Boyer" means in 1996, but this directly contradicts the earlier comment by Phil in the same liner notes that he had "not remixed or done anything to the tapes. These mixes, the material and style are the way Karen approved them". Does anyone know what the story is there? What exactly was remixed by Phil and why?
Question 2: If the album wasn't remixed or retouched in any way, why was it mastered twice? Sterling Sound was located in New York, which is where the first master was done in 1980 (further proof the album was "complete").
Also, I found these images on the Recording Resource, which I've never seen before. Does anyone own this super rare promotional “wallet” version of the CD?
I wonder if the original 2-channel mix down master had been lost in the intervening years. Or it could be that it still exists, but the remix was done to improve the dynamic range so that it sounded it’s best on CD, as the 80’s masters would’ve been done to sound good on vinyl.
David A
Well-Known Member
It's unfortunate that Karen's solo album apparently stirs such animosity. Her solo album is, in my view, a valid topic and is integral to the complete Carpenters story and legacy.
Having said that, I have nothing but admiration for the folks who take the time to moderate this forum, and respect their judgement on such things. I have been on other (non-Carpenters) forums that are not well tended by moderators, and it can get unruly in short order.
Very much agreed, actually!
The problem with the topic, is that for as much as I respect Randy (a long-time friend), and I very much enjoyed his bio on Karen, unfortunately it created a whole new generation of armchair psychologists and created a lot of divisiveness among Carpenters fans.
It's almost like, if you have an educated opinion about anything related to that album that contradicts someone’s emotion-based point of view, you're "in the Richard camp" and have no compassion for Karen. It isn't that black and white. But, again, too many folks can't separate that, making it an issue of political correctness.
In fairness to Randy, I think it was actually the Ray Coleman book that kick-started the divisiveness you mention. That book's take on the album essentially acted as the 'official' narrative on the project for a number of years and was already out there before most of us got to hear the album in its entirety. So, rather than there being a blank slate for listeners in 1996 to make up their own minds, it had already been labelled 'so bad it was unreleasable' in a book endorsed by one half of the duo. That's some significant baggage to attach to a project before it had even been officially released.
In hindsight I think it was a big mistake for Coleman to have presented such a partial perspective on the solo album. Presumably at the time it was written in 1994, there were no plans to release the solo album, so there was no need to be more even-handed because people weren't going to hear it all and then perhaps disagree with this account.
Really, in some ways, I see the account in Randy's book as a rebuttal of the opinion put forward in the Ray Coleman book. If Coleman's book hadn't gone in so hard in the first place, perhaps this whole issue might never have arisen - or at least the divisions wouldn't have been so sharply drawn.
In hindsight I think it was a big mistake for Coleman to have presented such a partial perspective on the solo album. Presumably at the time it was written in 1994, there were no plans to release the solo album, so there was no need to be more even-handed because people weren't going to hear it all and then perhaps disagree with this account.
Really, in some ways, I see the account in Randy's book as a rebuttal of the opinion put forward in the Ray Coleman book. If Coleman's book hadn't gone in so hard in the first place, perhaps this whole issue might never have arisen - or at least the divisions wouldn't have been so sharply drawn.
You actually make a very good point, as I’d overlooked some of the initial sentiments outlined in Coleman’s book prior to Randy’s.
I will say, however that regardless of whatever the reasons for initially shelving the album, I don’t believe that all of the early observations made in 1980 were strictly driven by some political agenda. And, this comes after having some very detailed conversation with some of the people that were there for both playbacks, years later in what I discern to be open, honest retrospect.
The Schmidt book certainly pointed out some things from the side of Karen — who let’s not forget wasn’t actually the one telling the story in that book, but instead, her friends, who ache to this day over her loss. Not taking a single thing away from their “feelings” as they relate to individual, personal recollections about the ordeal, but it really does only give a partial and one-sided telling of that story.
Conversely, Coleman’s book takes it from the opposite side — that being Karen’s flesh and blood sibling, who was deep in the throes of his drug addiction at an early age of 32 when she decided to go off on her own. I don’t know about the rest of you, but if that were my situation and both I AND my kid sister were gravely ill, yet tied at the hip creatively since adolescence, I’d probably have something to say about it too — in addition to whatever valid, non-political reasons there still might have been for not releasing it.
The point being, very few things in life — especially related to the human condition, are single-faceted. I believe this album falls glaringly into that category. It’s simply not that black and white.
Geographer
Well-Known Member
Exactly this. Well stated!
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I found this site containing A&M catalogue numbers of all their 1980-1982 releases. It’s sad to see just the entry “-” next to the album’s catalogue number SP-4804.
A&M Album Discography, Part 8
A&M Album Discography, Part 8
tomswift2002
Well-Known Member
So with that, was it meant to be A&M’s fourth album release in 1984? Or it was just the number it was assigned and could’ve been released later in 1980?
Carpe diem
Well-Known Member
If Karen's album had that reach out and grab you factor, it would've been released. Like Michael Jackson's Off The Wall solo album at the same time. His album HAD that factor and was hugely successful. Karen's album was nothing more than average. Herb/Jerry realized this and did not want to potentially scuttle a successful act going out on a limb with Karen's solo effort. I believe Karen's album should've been released back in 1980, but I can understand as a "business decision" why the enthusiasm wasn't there.
David A
Well-Known Member
Yes, had Moss and Alpert envisioned dollar signs flooding into A&M's coffers with the solo album, hard to imagine they wouldn't have supported releasing it.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
When you put it like that, I’d tend to agree. I love the album because it’s Karen and because I love her voice, but if you were to put it side by with with Off The Wall, there’s no comparison (but to be fair, what else could compare with that album at that time?). I do think it had some potential, but I don’t think it would have been a #1 smash. She could have had a couple of top 20 singles with it, as I’ve said on here before, but nothing that could have hit #1. Not by 1980 anyway. Had Barry Gibb produced it and had it been released in 1979, the story of the Carpenters might have been very different from thereon in. Herb Alpert not being straight about its cancellation and changing his story over the years is baffling to me and just adds to the mystery surrounding it.
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Carpe diem
Well-Known Member
Yes, first and foremost, they're businessmen. As nice a guy as Herb is (and I believe he is), it's business.
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