THE LONELY BULL - Your Reviews

[Mr Bill]

:As was noted above, headphones are definitely not the medium for listening to this album. And what's up with that anyway?

The Lonely Bull was recorded when "mono" was the norm. The "stereo craze" was still in its infancy and many mono recordings were given a "stereo treatment" to satisfy what was then viewed by many in the business as a fad. It was wrong (it was true for quad a decade later, though). Ther ewere different ways used by different companies or artists to satisfy this need. In the case of The Lonely Bull many trracks originally done mono Alpert simply recorded a second trumpent track for the other channel. Hence the odd separation on this recording.

No one says it's a technically superb album! It's just a major part of music history as the first TJB record AND the launch of the most successful independent record label in history.

--Mr Bill

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Come on, give me a break! TLB Cd is not that bad. The only track that I hear any real disrortion on is "Desifinado". And even there upon listening to the 1988 CD I discovered it was there too, just masked a bit because of the lower output and less resolution. As someone mentioned earlier, it probably would have done more harm than good to try and remix it. Sonically, there may not be much more they can do with it. It was the first TJB album and the first A&M LP. On some of the tracks, the recording equipment and the environment in which it was recorded probably wasn't as sophisticated as later albums. Not to mention that SOTB was engineered by Larry Levine. TLB wasn't. I admit TLB doesn't sound quite as good as the other two sonically, but geez, it's not THAT BAD. If Herb signed his name to this reissue, there probably wasn't much more they could have done with it.

David,
thinking we should be glad for the effort being made by Mr. Alpert......

 

[Houckster]

Look, there's no sense trying to sugarcoat this disaster. I have the '88 version and it's far superior in every respect. This "stereo in its infancy" defense is as lame as it can be. There is absolutely no reason for this CD to have happened. South of the Border, just about 2-3 years newer, was wonderful. So is Lost Treasures.

Let's assume for a minute that stereo was indeed considered a fad. I don't believe this for a moment but let's assume it. Let's further assume, since I don't have the vinyl version anymore, that the right channel was almost exclusively for trumpet or a restricted group of instruments. Today, stereo is not a fad and there seems to me to be no valid reason to treat it as such just because they did then. Are we talking realism or being "true" to the original? What's the good of that. It was a mistake then and it is doubly a mistake now! As much as I respect and admire Mr. Alpert, I'd tell him that (diplomatically of course) to his face.

Of course, stereo was not viewed as a fad by the recording industry. RCA and Deutche Grammophon both put huge resources into refining stereo beginning in the late '50s. Al Hirt's albums, like Honey in the Horn which came out a little before The Lonely Bull, for example, sound almost as good as if he had recorded them in 1985. His later Pro Jazz albums (in DDD) didn't sound nearly so vibrant.

The Lonely Bull couldn't just be an April Fool's day joke could it? Naw, it's only February.

 

[Harry]

I'm happy that THE LONELY BULL IS true to its origins, and sounds like the LP did. That's what re-issues should be for - to preserve what was originally issued. Attempts to update recordings by remixing are usually recipes for disaster as surely someone somewhere will have an objection to the new choices made, effectively 'ruining' the listening experience.

In the movie world, see 'George Lucas'; in the recording world, see "Richard Carpenter." Though I personaly have no problems with either Mr. Lucas or Mr. Carpenter tampering with their prior works, its anathema to many.

I'd hardly consider the Shout! Factory releease to be a 'disaster', though we're all entitled to our opinions.

Facts are another matter, and the fact is that stereo was indeed a niche format back in 1962. Yes there were plenty of releases prior to it in stereo, but all were minor sellers in comparison to their mono "hifi" counterparts. Today's comparison would be those who are gung-ho on surround sound mixes. The CDs that contain those are few and far between, but those hobbyists who are sold on the idea will seek them out. Most albums back in the early '60s were done with a monaural thoughth in mind, and mixed for stereo to satisfy the growing demand for that new technology. Herb, we've learned had an appreciation for stereo sound long before many others did, and was often responsible for those early stereo mixes himself, while Larry Levine tended to the mono.

Look at the nearly parallel-timed Beatles releases. Those were all made with mono in mind, and in fact the Beatles themselves didn't start messing with stereo until later in their career. The stereo mixes were an afterthought, mostly demanded by the American market as the British market wasn't all that interested in stereo.

A lot of the problem too had to do with the lack of available channels in the master recordings. Boards of the day were limited to two or four channels, so mixing engineers using two channels were forced to bounce information from one channel to another, leaving only two channels at the end of the process. That's why the early Beatles stuff has voices in one channel and instruments in the other, and why the early Herb Alpert stuff has basically a mono mix in one channel, and extraneous added sounds to another channel.

On THE LONELY BULL, the title track was essentially mono - and made into stereo by having Herb add another lead trumpet part for the 'other channel.' That's the way it was designed for the stereo album, and that's what we hear today on the new release.

Yes, stereo was in its infancy, and many didn't know just what the result would be when such choices were made. No-one then could know that forty three years later, people would be analyzing these recordings from a digital medium that is both revealing and unforgiving. But that doesn't mean that they didn't occasionally get things right. Listen to the superb stereo imaging on "Desafinado" on the same album.

Disaster? Joke? I think not.

Harry
...no sugarcoating here, online...

 

[TonyCurrie]

There is, of course, no entirely satisfactory answer that suits everybody's preferences. To be honest, I was a little dismayed when I put THE LONELY BULL into the player, simply because I'm accustomed to "digital remastering" being just that - RE-mastering; the creation of a new version of the recorded work. Whereas this sounds like a direct transfer of the original master to CD with nothing lost, and nothing gained. (I could be wrong, of course, there may have been some re-equalisation from the tape, but it doesn't sound any different from my stereo vinyl.)

As I said before, if this had been a project that I'd been working on, I'd have made some changes to satisfy the way the disc sounds on modern equipment - so I'd have done some hiss reduction, dropout compensation and brought the stereo stage in a bit, at the very least.

But I can do that anyway with the disc that I now - happily - own.

Of course the whole stereo vs mono thing gets very messy with a whole host of 60s recordings. That's why George Martin wanted the CD versions of the first batch of Beatles albums released only in mono. But there's still an attitude prevalent that "I've paid a lot of money for my stereo kit and I want to hear the music in stereo".

I recall one ludicrous mix back in 1966 - on the Sounds Orchestral album "Play Classical melodies". A Scarlatti piece had the piano moving around during the tune - it would slowly move from left to right and back during the recording. Very 'clever', and very silly. When the record was remastered for CD, the piano was firmly anchored in the middle and quite right too.

There's no doubt that a reissue of TLB with significant alterations to the original mix would be met with hostility from some of us and joy from others. So, on balance, I think the decision to leave well alone is probably the right one.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

For corn sake, Houckster, if you feel THAT ripped off on THE LONELY BULL, then put it up for auction on eBay and you'll get at least what you paid for it back. As for me, I'm glad to have these reisssues and appreciate the effort that went into these. If I could find any basis to agree with you to the degree that you are slamming TLB, I'd be happy to entertain your pontifications. But personally, I think you just don't understand the points that Harry and I have tried to get across to you or you just need a hug or some chocolate or something. That's as un-sugarcoated as I get on a public forum.

David,
asking Houckster to take a few deep breaths............

 

[alpertfan]

I've said before and I'll say again, I'm so glad to finally have these reissues that I DON'T CARE about the little imperfections here and there on them. This is something we've been waiting for for a long time. My father passed away on December 10th, and he was really excited about these CDs coming out. He never owned the original LP of this album. I only wish he were here to enjoy it now.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I can agree thet headphones certainly aren't the way to go when listening to this album. Try as I might, I just can't get any bass at all. But, it sounds like It did when I was listening as a kid...back in the '60's, when bass response was very hard to come by. I really used to think that Pat Senatore only toured with the group, and there was no bass player in the studio...I never heard a bassline until I got a decent stereo in college...

I have good equipment, I just wonder why I don't get any bass when I listen to this album with my 'phones...the peakers do just fine...and I'm really glad to finally have this album and the others on a format that I can play them on, other than what I was able to squeeze out of that kitty with the headphones on my harddrive...



Dan

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Just finished running through the album again. One thing I never really paid attention to before is the amount of "voices" that are used on this album. Nearly every track has vocalizing of some sort.

 

[Dore Adler]

It's a really good album in stereo. It's a really *great* album in mono. I wish they would have put it out both ways. There is certainly room on the cd for it, plus any bonuses.

I don't hold the stereo sound against it, though. Stereo was not in it's infancy in 1962, except in Herb's garage! I kind of like the primitiveness of it. But give me the mono!

 

[Houckster]

For corn sake, Houckster, if you feel THAT ripped off on THE LONELY BULL, then put it up for auction on eBay and you'll get at least what you paid for it back. As for me, I'm glad to have these reisssues and appreciate the effort that went into these. If I could find any basis to agree with you to the degree that you are slamming TLB, I'd be happy to entertain your pontifications. But personally, I think you just don't understand the points that Harry and I have tried to get across to you or you just need a hug or some chocolate or something. That's as un-sugarcoated as I get on a public forum.

David,
asking Houckster to take a few deep breaths............

Put it up for sale on E-Bay? I wouldn't get 5 cents for it. Any objective person would have been asking what happened to the music and then ask for their nickel back.

I am not slamming the TJB. Take a few breaths and read my comments again.

It is fine to be appreciative that these reissues were made, I am very much appreciative of the South of the Border and Lost Treasure albums that have been reissued and I will be buying other reissues as they become available. Hopefully they will reflect the excellence of South of the Border album.

I have been listening to this music for as long as anyone else here and the vociferousness of my comments stems directly from the disappointment of how the songs on the Lonely Bull were treated. On the '88 reissue, they felt no desire to repeat the incorrect application of stereo techniques. A mistake is a mistake and the only good way to deal with a mistake is not to do it again. The true measure of the success of a reissue is how the music sounds. The TJB didn't sound like they do on this CD and that's what I wanted to hear.

I also see absolutely no reason not to use modern techniques to remove audio trash that obscures the sound or minimize errors in the recording technique or whatever. It reminds me of the equally fallacious arguments against colorizing movies. The uproar that somehow the art of these movies was somehow compromised were nothing but ridiculous. The truth of the matter was that with only a couple of exceptions, those movies were made in B&W because it was either technically or financially impractical to make them in color.

It is the TJB sound that is what's important and on Lonely Bull it is so frequently blighted that it is a terrible shame.

I would like to reiterate the opening in my first post that I am not making these comments to insult or inflame others. I am stating my disappointment with this reissue and my reasons for feeling that way.

BTW, rather than take a few deep breaths as was suggested, I did better than that. While I was writing this, I was listening to the 1988 reissue.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

It is obvious to me from the first 2 reissues that Herb is using the ORIGINAL masters that were used in the first few runs of pressings back in the 60's. We all seem to agree that TLB and SOTB sound like the original LP versions did. To my ears, the 1988 discs did NOT sound like the original master, but perhaps a later generation master. Heck, WNML sounded like an 8 track in comparison to the LP and didn't have the original mixes on some songs. GP had so many flaws it was laughable. So I hope Herb continues on this trend and uses the original masters so we don't have these flaws and mix differences on the re-issues. I'm sorry Houckster if you prefer an altered version of the original, but I think most of us want it the way we grew up with it. Hopefully with this approach, we'll have a CD version of GP that doesn't have dropouts at the beginning of TIJUANA TAXI or tape warble throughout the disc. BTW, you're DEFINITELY wrong about selling your copy on eBay. If you don't believe me, just monitor for a couple of weeks and you'll see just how many copies are being sold at full price and higher.

David,
not intentionally slamming Houckster, just disagreeing........

 

[bruckner1]

I wish that I had hung onto my mono LP of this.

 

[Dore Adler]

Mono copies go for cheap on ebay. I just got a couple and I paid no more than a few bucks!!

Houkster--Mastering engineers have a phrase for what you are suggesting. They call it, "playing God!" We live in a time when every time an album gets remastered they try to change it to fit the current trends. It is almost always a mistake! Take Beatles 1, please!! What a monstrous bad decision to max those songs to the point where your ears are bleeding after only a few minutes. Their perception of a past mistake was, a mistake!

TLB was mixed the way it was and I applaud Herb for not trying to rewrite history. It is what it is. It's what we listened to for a generation. Let it be what it is.

The mono is fabulous. Get a copy and transfer it to cd and be happy. Or, remix the stereo yourself. These days, the proper tools are a download away and often free!! And you have a perfectly noise-free version to work from.

There are many sixties albums that have this kind of stereo, notably the Beatles records up to Sgt Pepper. It's just a sign of the times, perhaps they thought we'd all be sitting between our speakers! LOL! I've remixed many of these to my preference and it was very satisfying to have it the way I wanted. But I would never push my preferences on the public.

I must say you are bang-wrong about colorizing old movies and the value of Black & White! John Ford, the pre-eminent director of all time once said, "Color is easy. Black and white is *real* photography. Kubrick, Woody Allen, Scorcese and many others made b&w films when color was the norm. It was a creative choice almost 100% of the time. To re-jigger these films at this late date would be criminal. I feel sorry for people of the current generation who bypass a film or tv show simply because it's B&W.

Sorry to be so contradictory, but these are big issues for me. I really don't like it when a work of art is altered by anyone other than the original artist, and even then they should have a solid reason behind it.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Well said, Dore! Some people would paint a moustache on the Mona Lisa!

David,
NP- The remastered LONELY BULL

 

[Houckster]

I disagree with Mr. Ford the director. I'd tell him so. His comments are a gross generality. I bet that if color had been financially feasible when he made his movies, he would have had them in color.

The Mona Lisa would look great with a mustache and maybe sideburns.

I remain as absolutely unconvinced by Mr. Adler's arguments as he is with mine.

The only concession I'll make is that I don't have the original vinyl to compare either the '88 or the '05 reissues to so I cannot say whether the '88 reissue is a departure from the original as has been claimed but if it is, it was for the better. Having listened closely to both the '88 and '05 reissues, there is additional detail in the '05 but getting to that point is going beyond the point of diminishing returns because more audio grunge than genuine sound has been recovered. I'll take the '88 reissue every time.

The core goal of Mr. Alpert's music was to entertain. If you took 1000 people who don't have an opinion about this album and asked them to compare the '88 and '05 reissues, I would be surprised if at least 75% of them did not like the '88 reissue more.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

And if you took 100 people who own both versions of TLB on CD and complain about the 2005 version till the cows come home, you probably won't get them to validate the animosity you seem to have towards this reissue. If you need something to help you appreciate the recording techniques of 1962, then get "Persuasive Percussion" by Enoch Light on Varese Sarabande. This album was considered state of the art when it was released and it bounces around your speakers like a tennis ball in some places. In the meantime, while you continue whining about the "horrible sound" of TLB, 5 more copies have been sold on eBay. You're missing your chance to unload the dang thing.

David,
from the beating a subject to death dept. ----------

 

[seashorepiano]

I have yet to hear "The Lonely Bull" on the Shout! Factory release. Most of the Herb Alpert I listen to is on vinyl records. However, I thought I would chirp up here and contribute since I've seen this particular thread floating at the top of the column of most recent subjects for quite some time.

If one owns a copy of this album in mono, and prefers it, then so be it. If one happens to own the 1988 CD release, then so be it. The multiple offerings of this album are really present for two reasons. One is a technological factor, and another is a commercial factor. Some may appreciate the LP for its distinct monaural sound, while others may appreciate the advances in technology since 1962 and consider the CD to be a refreshing, upgraded way to hear their favorite music. Others may just buy the CD for no other reason than to upgrade to a CD because their original LP was worn out. They may lack any interest whatsoever in technological advances. They are not discerning listeners, or 'audiophiles.' They just want to hear good music.

And so, with that in mind, I think it is quite absurd that some people here are overreacting to the reported deficiencies of this particular imprint of 2005 that was put in motion by none other than the namesake himself, Herb Alpert. It is pointless to rehash the same problems ad nauseam with the apparent irreconcilable and unacceptable differences that some view in this new CD release, as compared with the origina LP or 1988 CD.

If the supposed distortion in sound in this latest release is so unbearable, then the unsatisfied buyer has a number of options. One is to recognize that it is what it is, and if it's that painful to hear, then simply file it away and at least consider that you have taken part in a memorable revival of historic American music. Another option is to sell it on an online trading post, such as eBay, and win back the money that you parted with in a legitimate auction. A third option is to sell it to a secondhand or used records store that would probably be very willing to attain a fresh CD copy of this album. There are truly ways to benefit from a disappointing purchase.

It all comes down to a matter of preference. If you're not in the mood for comparison of media, then put the less desired format away (or sell it), and put the other on, and listen contentedly.

 

[Houckster]

thetijuanataxi wrote:

In the meantime, while you continue whining about the "horrible sound" . . .

I am stating my displeasure with this reissue. I am not whining and I will thank you to keep a civil tongue in your posts.

 

[Harry]

Let's keep this civil, or we'll be forced to delete the offending posts.

Please express your feelings toward the releases, and not other members.

Harry

 

[Houckster]

When someone accuses me of whining, I find it very offending, thus my post. I should have replied in more temperate fashion to it. Consequently, my apologies.

I would like to also point out something that I have not said before and may really need to be said, that is that while I find this reissue disappointing and objections to my criticism unconvincing, that does not mean I begrudge others the satisfaction they have derived from this reissue. That was not the intention of any of my posts.

 

[Harry]

Let't move on. Houckster has his opinions and has expressed them. Others have their opinions too and have expressed them. Continue with your reviews.

Harry

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Man, I leave for a couple of days, and look what happens...

The only problem with the mono version of The Lonely Bull is that the trumpet solo on "Crawfish" - which is completely different from the stereo version - is not near as good.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Agreed. The stereo version of CRAWFISH is better. Herb knows what he's doing. Though the additional echoes on EL LOBO and MEXICO are kinda neat. As far as Capt. Bacardi going away for a few days, This situatuation isn't all of it. There are many disgruntled people in Austin who din't get their mail

David,
who would like to be on vacation........

 

[daveK]

Being one of the lower income bracket persons on this forum, I just got my "Lonely Bull" CD yesterday. My first listen was on a portable player with headphones. It sounds horrible with headphones! The left channel is practically non-existent on most tracks.
So I listened to it this morning in my car and am pretty satisfied with the sound. I just won't listen with headphones again.
I agree with a lot of what Houckster is saying about this reissue though. I do believe there was a mistake made. The mistake was not putting the mono version on the disc. This album was recorded in mono and then given enhancements for stereo. I think the CD reissue should contain the mono mix with the stereo mix as bonus tracks. I find it hard to believe that there are people who actually think that the title track sounds better in stereo. I can't see it. I still think that it's annoying the way that most of the sound comes from the right channel throughout the album. I don't remember this being the case with the A&M CD (except for the title track of course). Overall, I think a few tracks like "Struttin' With Maria" and "Acapulco 1922" sound better on the A&M disc. On the Shout Factory disc, it's like the whole thing is not centered properly. There were a lot of stereo disasters that have been corrected in the digital age. First example is The Beatles' "Yellow Submarine Songtrack" where stereo disasters like "Eleanor Rigby" and "All You Need Is Love" were remixed. Another example is the recent Beach Boys compilation that corrected "errors" on the horrendous original mix of "Heroes And Villains". I realize that the word "error" is an opinion in this case. Unfortunately the multiple tracks used in those recordings, which were not available for the recording of TLB, make it impossible for the same to be done with this album, which is why I think the mono version should have been made available. (I actually miss the original trumpet solo from "Crawfish". I don't think the second one is superior at all.)
As far as tape hiss goes, I think there was some effort to minimize it. Notice how the final echo is missing from the very end of both "Tijuana Sauerkraut" and "Limbo Rock" for example. I think they were trying to end the track before the hiss took over.
And since I haven't done enough nitpicking in this post (yeah, right!), I hate this new habit record companies have of making the silence between tracks part of the track instead putting it between tracks. Aside from "Never On Sunday" and "A Quiet Tear", all the tracks have 5 seconds of silence at the end. There should be a "countdown" of silence between every track like there is between "Sunday" and "Maria". I think Rhino started the habit of making the silence part of the actual track and virtually every other reissue label has now followed suit.
One more thing that I didn't see anyone mention here. Did you notice that if you skip straight to "Let It Be Me" the very top of the track is clipped off? The song starts just a microsecond before track 8 starts.