What if "(They Long to Be) Close to You" Doesn't Hit?

[Portlander]

As I said in that thread 11 years ago---"Superstar", "Goodbye to Love", "This Masquerade"---these songs caught the attention and got the respect of people who weren't Carpenters fans. Finding a way to extend that line rather than doing "Sing" and "Goofus" would have paid off for K&R in the long run. Richard was right to worry.

Well said Michael. A side note, Lynn Anderson releasing "Top Of The World" was probably the best thing that happened to Karen and Richard during their career and a win win for both artists. Lynn made money due to it's success on the country charts (#2) and the Carpenters made a bunch due to royalties from Lynn seeing that Richard and John wrote it and more financial rewards for it reaching number one on the Top 40 charts!

Plus it has been featured in numerous commercials and movies during the past 50 years which brings in even more royalties. Cannot think of another Carpenter hit that would have been as profitable with maybe "Yesterday Once More" coming in at a distant second due to it being written by Richard and having a huge impact in Japan?

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Well said Michael. A side note, Lynn Anderson releasing "Top Of The World" was probably the best thing that happened to Karen and Richard during their career and a win win for both artists. Lynn made money due to it's success on the country charts (#2) and the Carpenters made a bunch due to royalties from Lynn seeing that Richard and John wrote it and more financial rewards for it reaching number one on the Top 40 charts!

They were extremely lucky Lynn's version didn't fully cross over and block the opportunity (it peaked at #2 Country, but only #74 on the Hot 100). Given that Lynn had a #3 hit two and a half years earlier with "Rose Garden", it certainly could have happened.

 

[JohnFB]

...

And there are ways to do "Sing" that doesn't involve a children's chorus---in fact, Barbra Streisand did a wistful (well, it starts and ends that way) adult version (part of a medley with Mama Cass' "Make Your Own Kind of Music") the year before K&R did...

Barbra was super-talented, both with her singing and her acting - I had most of her albums and loved almost everything she did vocally - and she was a really good, natural actress...her interpretation of "Sing" is good, and interesting, but only serves to remind me of why I always preferred listening to Karen sing a song - any song. I can't even imagine what Karen would have done with "The Way We Were".

A lot of us enjoyed Lawrence Welk...often for all the wrong reasons...

Was it the very attractive woman singing in the duet, or was it the subject of the lyrics (which one didn't hear too often on that show? Here's some commentary on the song from its composer:

When we wrote 'One Toke Over the Line,' I think we were one toke over the line. I considered marijuana a sort of a sacrament… If you listen to the lyrics of that song, 'one toke' was just a metaphor. It's a song about excess. Too much of anything will probably kill you.” – Tom Shipley.Apr 18, 2021

Yeah, but...the reason the Carpenters didn't have a longer chart run was image---nobody ever said Karen couldn't sing or Richard couldn't produce...

It was never about talent. It was absolutely about content choices and imimage.

Well, image was important - but which, or whose, image did they want? Good, clean, super-talented kids who loved and made great music - or drug-adled, alcoholic, party hounds who had no standards and cranked out ear-splitting garbage that they thought the in-crowd progressive critics would praise. Chart position was important, but it shouldn't have been so obsessively critical. More so would have been the overall quality of the long term output years into the future.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Was it the very attractive woman singing in the duet, or was it the subject of the lyrics (which one didn't hear too often on that show? Here's some commentary on the song from its composer:

When we wrote 'One Toke Over the Line,' I think we were one toke over the line. I considered marijuana a sort of a sacrament… If you listen to the lyrics of that song, 'one toke' was just a metaphor. It's a song about excess. Too much of anything will probably kill you.” – Tom Shipley.Apr 18, 2021

It was the lyrics. I was 15, at Grandma's house (we always had dinner there the night Welk was on)---he introduces a "modern spiritual" and I'm on the floor laughing. Had to break it to Mom and Grandma that the song was about smoking dope.

Welk was often unconsciously funny--- introducing his band's version of Billy Strayhorn's "Take The "A" Train" as "Take A Train". It's what made Robin Williams' Welk impression so great---"The lovely Lennon Sisters singing "I Can't Get No Satisfaction"....now Myron Floren and his accordion. Get down and get funky, Myron."

Well, image was important - but which, or whose, image did they want? Good, clean, super-talented kids who loved and made great music - or drug-adled, alcoholic, party hounds who had no standards and cranked out ear-splitting garbage that they thought the in-crowd progressive critics would praise.

You do know that there's a middle ground that ended up with decades-long careers (some of which continue to this day), right? Carole King, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, Linda Ronstadt, Joni Mitchell....

Nobody was suggesting Karen and Richard follow in the footsteps of another family act---The Ramones---but they needed quite a bit more distance from Donny and Marie Osmond than they had (especially from the KIND OF HUSH album and the TV specials onward).

Chart position was important, but it shouldn't have been so obsessively critical. More so would have been the overall quality of the long term output years into the future.

Again, your original point was chart position. It and subjective assessments of quality are two completely different things. And attempting to apply that subjective assessment of quality to a recorded music format that was largely bought by teenaged girls in the 70s (the 45 RPM record) makes no sense.

 

[JohnFB]

It was the lyrics. I was 15, at Grandma's house (we always had dinner there the night Welk was on)---he introduces a "modern spiritual" and I'm on the floor laughing. Had to break it to Mom and Grandma that the song was about smoking dope.

Welk was often unconsciously funny--- introducing his band's version of Billy Strayhorn's "Take The "A" Train" as "Take A Train". It's what made Robin Williams' Welk impression so great---"The lovely Lennon Sisters singing "I Can't Get No Satisfaction"....now Myron Floren and his accordion. Get down and get funky, Myron."

Poor mom & Grandma! They must have been crushed! And the Lovely Lennon Sisters sang what!?!

 

[byline]

Richard's piano starts things off in the hard left channel with the oboe quoting the melody in the hard right.

I love everything you pointed out about the stereo. You inspired me to listen to the original mix again to remember just how special that was. One more sublime element is when the stacked vocal harmonies, "We've only begun," build into Karen's "Before the rising sun." If you're not hooked by then, you won't be. And I love the tambourine. "We've Only Just Begun" just isn't the song I remember without it.

But one correction: I'm pretty sure that's Doug Strawn on clarinet, not oboe.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Poor mom & Grandma! They must have been crushed! And the Lovely Lennon Sisters sang what!?!

It was part of Robin Williams' Welk impression (this one only has about 35 seconds of it---I've cued it to the beginning):

 

[Harry]

But one correction: I'm pretty sure that's Doug Strawn on clarinet, not oboe.

No-one ever accused me of instant instrument recognition! Heck, I still don't hear a difference between a trumpet and a flugelhorn.

 

[byline]

No-one ever accused me of instant instrument recognition! Heck, I still don't hear a difference between a trumpet and a flugelhorn.

That's OK. I'm a clarinetist, so naturally I zeroed in on that. I would have to listen very carefully to try to hear the difference between a trumpet and a flugelhorn. Sometimes a muted trumpet sounds a lot like a flugelhorn.

Also, because of the way Doug Strawn miced (or synthesized?) his clarinet, it didn't always sound like a clarinet. I used to think "We've Only Just Begun" featured a flute, not a clarinet. Strawn had an interesting way of adjusting his sound so that it was softer and mellower, like a flute. Other times his clarinet sound had more of an edge, like an oboe. Clarinet is usually sort of in the middle: sweet in the higher notes, dark in the lower notes, but without the "bite" that oboe brings to it or the shrillness of a flute ... though clarinets can be shrill, too.

 

[Murray]

That's OK. I'm a clarinetist, so naturally I zeroed in on that. I would have to listen very carefully to try to hear the difference between a trumpet and a flugelhorn. Sometimes a muted trumpet sounds a lot like a flugelhorn.

Also, because of the way Doug Strawn miced (or synthesized?) his clarinet, it didn't always sound like a clarinet. I used to think "We've Only Just Begun" featured a flute, not a clarinet. Strawn had an interesting way of adjusting his sound so that it was softer and mellower, like a flute. Other times his clarinet sound had more of an edge, like an oboe. Clarinet is usually sort of in the middle: sweet in the higher notes, dark in the lower notes, but without the "bite" that oboe brings to it or the shrillness of a flute ... though clarinets can be shrill, too.

Doug Strawn played an "electric clarinet". It was a regular B-flat clarinet, which had a hole drilled in the tuning barrel, to which a pickup was attached. A cable from the pickup connected to a box, which had switches for various woodwind instrument sounds, and this box then was connected to an amplifier. It also worked with electric guitar effect pedals. In videos of live Carpenters performances, if you look closely, you can see the cable attached to his clarinet.

This video explains how it worked:

 

[byline]

Doug Strawn played an "electric clarinet". It was a regular B-flat clarinet, which had a hole drilled in the tuning barrel, to which a pickup was attached. A cable from the pickup connected to a box, which had switches for various woodwind instrument sounds, and this box then was connected to an amplifier. It also worked with electric guitar effect pedals. In videos of live Carpenters performances, if you look closely, you can see the cable attached to his clarinet.

This video explains how it worked:

Thanks for this explanation! I can recall the cable, but didn't know its purpose. It's interesting to me that so much innovation was going into how instrumental sounds could be manipulated electronically. However, the video is not available because "Playback on other websites has been disabled by the video owner." I think I have found it on YouTube ("An Introduction to the Electric Clarinet").

 

[Murray]

However, the video is not available because "Playback on other websites has been disabled by the video owner." I think I have found it on YouTube ("An Introduction to the Electric Clarinet").

Sorry about that. Click where it says "Watch on YouTube", and it'll take you to the video.

 

[Jack A.]

Heck, I still don't hear a difference between a trumpet and a flugelhorn.

It is a very subtle difference. I'm a trumpet player myself (I picked it up because I'm an Alpert fan), and I still have some trouble hearing it occasionally.

 

[byline]

Sorry about that. Click where it says "Watch on YouTube", and it'll take you to the video.

Yup, that's the one I watched. Very instructive. Though, interestingly, he does not demonstrate the same kind of difference in clarinet sound, moving between oboe and flute, that Doug Strawn achieved.

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread! Back to our original topic.

 

[Murray]

Yup, that's the one I watched. Very instructive. Though, interestingly, he does not demonstrate the same kind of difference in clarinet sound, moving between oboe and flute, that Doug Strawn achieved.

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail this thread! Back to our original topic.

He mentioned that the electronics in the original box, that he showed near the start of the video, had died, so he had to demonstrate using an effects pedal instead. It was the original box that came with the pickup, that had the electronics to create the different instrument sounds. The pedal he used could only change the octave, which can be used to simulate a bass clarinet.

 

[newvillefan]

We finally disagree. Had to happen sometime...LOL!

First time for everything Ed!

I don’t dislike ‘It’s Going To Take Some Time’, in fact I have a soft spot for it, given it’s on my favourite album. Whenever I hear that flute solo, it always reminds me of the first time I ever heard the album. I remember being mesmerised by the sound of the title track and its beautiful layered harmonies, the likes of which I’d never quite heard before. That experience lasted right through to the closing echoes of the bookended title track and all the while, I’d stared at the inner sleeve for the entire duration of the album, reading the credits over and over and looking at those quaint drawings that were interspersed between the lyrics.

I can’t really overstate how much these three images mean to me (there was a fourth). This was the album that changed the rest of my life and lit up in me a lifelong obsession with their music.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

the reason the Carpenters didn't have a longer chart run was image

While their image certainly didn't help, I think their chart run ended for the same reason everyone else's eventually ends: They ran out of gas. I mean, I had no problem with their image -- I scooped up every new Carpenters album that came out, right up until the end, image be damned. After Now and Then, I just started liking the albums less. And I think there were a few million other Carpenters fans who were just like me.

I thought the newer records were still good, they just didn't have the same adventurousness, variety, or innovation of the earlier records. They ditched the Rich vocals, they starting doing more and more "soft" material, more and more "oldies" (which RC himself said should have ended after "Postman"), there were less Carpenters background vocals, fewer Carpenter/Bettis songs, etc. The albums just got boring. THAT'S JUST MY REACTION. Superfans who worship everything Karen did will feel differently, but I consider myself more of a "devoted fan," which means I want to hear everything an artist puts out, but I'm not above saying when I don't like something.

To this day I still put on any of the first five albums, especially A Song For You and Close To You, and will listen all the way through. I don't feel the same "pull" from the later albums. I think I'm a typical fan; I assume others felt the same way about the later albums as I did.

 

[JohnFB]

While their image certainly didn't help, I think their chart run ended for the same reason everyone else's eventually ends: They ran out of gas. I mean, I had no problem with their image -- I scooped up every new Carpenters album that came out, right up until the end, image be damned. After Now and Then, I just started liking the albums less. And I think there were a few million other Carpenters fans who were just like me.

Well, not only did those millions of fans - and there were a lot more than a "few" - also say "image be damned, we love their music, we're buying their albums", but most of those millions actually preferred the wholesome image they honestly presented, and wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

Yes, they "ran out of gas", both artistically and physically, and touring so much was the primary culprit. It was responsible, either directly or indirectly, for many of their problems in both areas. More and more exhausting, draining time on the road, and less time in the studio. How could they continue to find/compose great songs and perfect their recordings when their precious time & energy was being wasted running around the world playing concerts through much of each year? Richard has said that they didn't need to do that, that it didn't help anything, that their albums would have sold eventually anyway. He was right. That loyal fan base of millions would have snapped up everything they turned out - and the charts and radio programmers/jockeys be damned too!

This senseless, excessive touring schedule lead to (or exacerbated) their personal health problems, which were serious enough to begin with. From the beginning they should have been spending most of their valuable time snd energy in the studio creating quality music, and just a little time on the road, playing highly selective concerts in a few key cities (for which they apparently broke about even financially), and to get an occasional break from the studio. Who's to blame for this disaster? Everybody involved, including R & K.

I thought the newer records were still good, they just didn't have the same adventurousness, variety, or innovation of the earlier records. They ditched the Rich vocals, they starting doing more and more "soft" material, more and more "oldies" (which RC himself said should have ended after "Postman"), there were less Carpenters background vocals, fewer Carpenter/Bettis songs, etc. The albums just got boring. THAT'S JUST MY REACTION. Superfans who worship everything Karen did will feel differently, but I consider myself more of a "devoted fan," which means I want to hear everything an artist puts out, but I'm not above saying when I don't like something.

That's pretty much my reaction too. I will say this about "worshipping everything Karen did" however. I am a fanatic when it comes to her singing. There is no sweeter sound in all of the music world, and I NEED to hear her every day. But there are a few critical things about her that both sadden and anger me, and I have not been above criticizing her at times for cause: allowing her gorgeous voice to be screwed with, and thus diminished, on so many of her lead vocals; submitting to the bullying demands to come out from behind her beloved drum set (is there any greater example of the meaning of ecstasy than the look on her face when she was playing?); and of course, the irrational self-destruction of her long term eating disorder, which eventually lead to her far-too-early death, depriving her of many more years on earth singing beautiful songs - for her great personal pleasure and ours.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

While their image certainly didn't help, I think their chart run ended for the same reason everyone else's eventually ends: They ran out of gas.

Agreed. But artists run out of gas quicker when their new material stops drawing in new fans. When your image finally locks you out of consideration for a viable set of record buyers, concert goers and radio listeners, that's trouble. Because hit records need more than just the loyal fan base.

 

[Nemily]

Another added factor could be that they lost themselves along the way. After running out of material after the first five albums then trying to figure out what the fans want, they may have found that staying true to their musicality and comfort zone may have ultimately served them well.

They found themselves torn in too many directions musically and got away from the dance that brought them to the party. For casual or new fans, the connection was derailed.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Another added factor could be that they lost themselves along the way. After running out of material after the first five albums then trying to figure out what the fans want, they may have found that staying true to their musicality and comfort zone may have ultimately served them well.

They found themselves torn in too many directions musically and got away from the dance that brought them to the party. For casual or new fans, the connection was derailed.

Exactly. And as we discussed earlier this year, the blame for a lot of that can be laid at the feet of management.

https://forum.amcorner.com/threads/congratulations-youve-got-the-job-youre-the-new-manager-of-the-carpenters.19191/post-238437

 

[Portlander]

Though I understood Jerry Weintraub's vision of bringing the Carpenters into the living rooms across the country via television specials to help broaden their appeal and hopefully increase record sales, the plan could have been executed better. The first special in 1976 was excellent in my opinion but I felt the Space Encounters special in 1978 was an embarrassment with a poor theme choice (regardless of the Star Wars craze) and an even more disappointing choice of quests. If there were any undecided potential fans teetering on the edge this special pushed them over. Bless Karen for making the most of a poorly written assortment of skits while Richard was clearly struggling with his health issues and dancing was the last thing he wanted or needed to be involved in. Image on life support after this flop!

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Though I understood Jerry Weintraub's vision of bringing the Carpenters into the living rooms across the country via television specials to help broaden their appeal and hopefully increase record sales, the plan could have been executed better. The first special in 1976 was excellent in my opinion but I felt the Space Encounters special in 1978 was an embarrassment with a poor theme choice (regardless of the Star Wars craze) and an even more disappointing choice of quests. If there were any undecided potential fans teetering on the edge this special pushed them over. Bless Karen for making the most of a poorly written assortment of skits while Richard was clearly struggling with his health issues and dancing was the last thing he wanted or needed to be involved in. Image on life support after this flop!

Trying to cash in on a craze that's not in your zone naturally is always a poor choice. Combine that with the general lack of taste of network television specials at the time, and it's a bad move. Let's not forget, that even bit Star Wars itself:

 

[Randy M]

While their image certainly didn't help, I think their chart run ended for the same reason everyone else's eventually ends: They ran out of gas. I mean, I had no problem with their image -- I scooped up every new Carpenters album that came out, right up until the end, image be damned. After Now and Then, I just started liking the albums less. And I think there were a few million other Carpenters fans who were just like me.

I thought the newer records were still good, they just didn't have the same adventurousness, variety, or innovation of the earlier records. They ditched the Rich vocals, they starting doing more and more "soft" material, more and more "oldies" (which RC himself said should have ended after "Postman"), there were less Carpenters background vocals, fewer Carpenter/Bettis songs, etc. The albums just got boring. THAT'S JUST MY REACTION. Superfans who worship everything Karen did will feel differently, but I consider myself more of a "devoted fan," which means I want to hear everything an artist puts out, but I'm not above saying when I don't like something.

To this day I still put on any of the first five albums, especially A Song For You and Close To You, and will listen all the way through. I don't feel the same "pull" from the later albums. I think I'm a typical fan; I assume others felt the same way about the later albums as I did.

I hopped on the disco train full steam ahead after the Now & Then album. What a waste Side 2 was. I remember buying one 45 afterward - Solitaire. Bought nothing, even after she died. Now was released and a few people said it was a boring money grab on the back of a dead money maker. I did hear Now once on the radio and that was it. Don't know when I dipped my toe back into the Carpenters water. Glad I did.

 

[JohnFB]

I hopped on the disco train full steam ahead after the Now & Then album. What a waste Side 2 was...

Not totally - after all, it did give us Karen's wonderful takes on JOHNNY ANGEL, OUR DAY WILL COME & THE END OF THE WORLD - unfortunately partial takes, but come on, it's Karen Carpenter singing - never a waste, always well worth the price of admission!