SONG BY SONG: "KAREN CARPENTER" (SP-4804/CD-0588)

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

While we are talking about an actual LP of Karen's solo album, there was an special from Entertainment Tonight of a segment they did on Karen Carpenter and Phil Ramone's wife guested and she held what looks to me like an actual LP size photo of Karen with the same photo of what now appears on Voice of the Heart. Karen was not even alive when VOTH was released so this sorta tells me that it's possible what Itchy Ramone is holding was a signed LP (one off). It's hard to tell from the snaps I made from the video clip but it looks like it's sealed in plastic wrap, either sealed or in one of those LP plastic sleeves.

Could this have been what her album might have looked like? It matches to the New York Times article that ran saying Karen chose the white sweatshirt as her album cover. Could this also be a one off LP pressing or just artwork of the LP that Karen signed. Is it possible Karen signed this in 1980?

 

[Rudy]

George Benson's Give Me The Night album is a classic. It came out in mid-1980 so would have been almost an exact contemporary of Karen's solo album. Quincy Jones' production gives it a somewhat more 'spacey' and precise sound than Phil Ramone's style, but as Rod Temperton wrote about half the tracks on the album, you can hear the similarities between these and those he wrote for Karen. Both the album and its singles 'Give Me the Night' and 'Love X Love' (both written by Temperton) were big hits and it won three Grammys. So even in the 'disco sucks' era, there was plenty of commercial mileage to had for this sound.

Funny thing: that album is nowhere close to disco, at least to my ears.

This album is a prime example of why I have thought that Quincy Jones would have been an excellent producer for KC's solo album. Ramone's work is not shameful by any means, but it is too "ordinary". Quincy's work on albums by Patti Austin, James Ingram, Michael Jackson, etc. and his own album The Dude would have really set KC's solo work in (IMHO) a better light--more flexible perhaps.

"Star Of A Story (X)" was a radio hit here as well. I've always liked that song. (Still don't know what the "X" means at the end, though.)

 

[GaryAlan]

My interest in these comments has greatly increased,
as I have simply got to take a good listen to some of the Quincy Jones' productions.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

and wasn't Quincy Jones there on that last playback when they were asked to go back and mix it again for the last time? That's why I wonder if there are other mixes still in the vaults?

 

[Rudy]

My interest in these comments has greatly increased,
as I have simply got to take a good listen to some of the Quincy Jones' productions.

Q has many good productions out there. His own "The Dude" is a good album. George Benson's Give Me The Night, the albums by Patti Austin and maybe James Ingram at the time, MJ's albums...all good. I fully believe a lot of MJ's success was due to Quincy; I did NOT like MJ's album Dangerous. It felt too "forced". As in, trying to duplicate the success of Thriller and Bad.

 

[Mark-T]

While we are talking about an actual LP of Karen's solo album, there was an special from Entertainment Tonight of a segment they did on Karen Carpenter and Phil Ramone's wife guested and she held what looks to me like an actual LP size photo of Karen with the same photo of what now appears on Voice of the Heart. Karen was not even alive when VOTH was released so this sorta tells me that it's possible what Itchy Ramone is holding was a signed LP (one off). It's hard to tell from the snaps I made from the video clip but it looks like it's sealed in plastic wrap, either sealed or in one of those LP plastic sleeves.

Could this have been what her album might have looked like? It matches to the New York Times article that ran saying Karen chose the white sweatshirt as her album cover. Could this also be a one off LP pressing or just artwork of the LP that Karen signed. Is it possible Karen signed this in 1980?

This is SO interesting, Chris! I notice the picture doesn't wobble like an ordinary photograph would. I 100% promise you, the lp I saw was not this but what we've discussed innumerable times (the original one that made the solo album just a beautiful color instead!). I wonder why someone from A&M hasn't told us the story of what really happened with the cover and which one they really did choose.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I noticed something minor that I didn't notice before, if what Itchy is holding is indeed a one off LP signed by Karen, if you compare the photo to the VOTH photo, the one Itchy is holding has more of Karen, look at her the top left of the edge of her hair against her white sweatshirt there is MORE of it compared to the VOTH LP. It's minor but I noticed it today on closer look.

 

[Chris Mills]

We need to contact Itchy, only she could verify what she is holding. Is Itchy on Facebook or Twitter? Maybe Chris May can find out, he seems to have the right connections. If not, someone on the east coast will have to find a way to deliver this query to Itchy.

 

[song4u]

Perhaps there was more than one mock up of the album cover so she could choose.

 

[Chris Mills]

We can all speculate as to what is being held by Itchy until doomsday, I would like to know for certain.

 

[Rudy]

I believe this would have been the first single had "Karen Carpenter" been released in 1980. I am a fan of all things Rod Temperton, so it was hard not to go with "Lovelines" or "If We Try". But didn't he help with the other songs too? The vocal acrobatics throughout are innovative, fresh, awesome, and just downright lovely and fun to listen to (especially with my Shure headphones).

One thing I remember from the Coleman bio was a note of how Richard thought Ramone had ripped off the Carpenters sound for that album, with the layered harmonies. Yet on "Lovelines," that track immediately reminded me of "Off The Wall" the first time I heard it (the song and, actually, the whole album). It's possible Temperton was influenced by Carpenters, yet they pulled their influence from those old Les Paul/Mary Ford albums where Ford's vocals were layered by using multitracking. To me, the vocal arrangements might have the same influence yet Richard and Temperton (or maybe Quincy Jones--I don't call who did the vocal arrangements) went about it differently. (I'd have to listen again, but I think Temperton's songs featured a lot of minor seventh harmonies.)

 

[Mark-T]

Rudy, this is part of the reason I love the solo disc. OTW is one of my favorite albums of all time.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I believe that this photo was taken while Karen was recording her solo album, does anyone know who the guy is at the board? Is he one of the associates or engineers listed in the credits?

Karen Ichiuju (also known as Itchy Ramone), Phil's wife is listed on the credits as one of the many "Production Associates".
What did Itchy actually do in the production work of her solo album? It just dawned on me today that Itchy was really involved in Karen's solo album and it makes sense Karen would have given her this gift. Were you all aware she was a production associate on her solo album?

 

[GaryAlan]

My understanding is that Karen (as Carpenters) selected Sweet, Sweet Smile and brought the song to Richard's attention.
Otherwise, song selection remained in Richard's domain.
As Karen, solo, she selected all of the material she wanted to record.(With input from Phil Ramone?).
My point being: If the song selection is that which Karen wanted to record, then the album should not have been shelved.
The photo, above, is disheartening, as she does not look well.
But, even so, I think that she was physically worse for the MIA sessions.
One reads that the Voice of the Heart outer-sleeve photo was a photo taken during her solo sessions (photography by Claude Mougin).
Also, Richard states that "Karen's voice was never lovelier.." in referring to 1982's "Now", yet, it is distinctively in her higher register (and softer).
That being the case, why were the solo songs deemed unworthy of release? (if, partly due to his belief that Karen was singing too high?).
Why has: Something's Missing and I Love Making Love To You remained unreleased ? Those are two , unequivocally, excellent songs.
Simply a few observations, I apologize for the rambling...

 

[A&M Retro]

Even though she's too damned thin in this photo, Karen looks very much 'in command' here. I love this shot! That's definitely from the solo sessions.

 

[mr J.]

My understanding is that Karen (as Carpenters) selected Sweet, Sweet Smile and brought the song to Richard's attention.
Otherwise, song selection remained in Richard's domain.
As Karen, solo, she selected all of the material she wanted to record.(With input from Phil Ramone?).
My point being: If the song selection is that which Karen wanted to record, then the album should not have been shelved.
The photo, above, is disheartening, as she does not look well.
But, even so, I think that she was physically worse for the MIA sessions.
One reads that the Voice of the Heart outer-sleeve photo was a photo taken during her solo sessions (photography by Claude Mougin).
Also, Richard states that "Karen's voice was never lovelier.." in referring to 1982's "Now", yet, it is distinctively in her higher register (and softer).
That being the case, why were the solo songs deemed unworthy of release? (if, partly due to his belief that Karen was singing too high?).
Why has: Something's Missing and I Love Making Love To You remained unreleased ? Those are two , unequivocally, excellent songs.
Simply a few observations, I apologize for the rambling...

The song selection didn't remain in Richard's domain.Karen accepted/rejected many titles in their catalog.And,Richard wrote several songs for Karen according to her specifications,including "Look To Your Dreams" and "Because We Are In Love". Karen ultimately approved of every track that has been included on each album.

As far as Karen choosing the material for her solo album-Phil,most likely,encouraged her to choose the type of material she recorded for the album.But,ultimately,the label decides if the album should go forward-and there are several factors taken into account regarding these decisions.

 

[GaryAlan]

Good points, Mr.J., although how would we ever know all/any of the songs Karen rejected in their catalog, if left unrecorded/undocumented ?
Karen did not care for ( as we all know) Solitaire, and disliked (very much) Rainbow Connection. ( They were recorded, never-the-less.)
The (Authorized) Coleman Biography:" Richard had assumed total responsibility for everything in their career" (p.139)
And page 207, of that same book, detailing Karen's discontent with a song selection, and Richard retorting "yeah, that's right",
when Karen asked of him "..am I just the dumb singer?"
Coleman: "He had been hurt by her questioning..of his unerring selection of their material.." (ibid.)
Regarding "Look to Your Dreams" (Coleman,page 327),the song dates from 1974, when Karen asked Richard and John to write the tune:
it was recorded in 1978, and then, "Richard held it off any album during her lifetime...concerned that it was not contemporary enough.."
But, of course, we do know she requested the classic (?) "Because We are in Love" to be written for her wedding.
There is even more documentary evidence of my observation that the song selection was Richard's domain. (This not my opinion)
If Karen had had more control, Look to Your Dreams would have landed on an LP before her passing, if I read Coleman correctly.
At times, I understand that I might be ambiguous in my wording, but I do strive to document my sources whereby I have arrived at my conclusions.

 

[MissK]

Good points, Mr.J., although how would we ever know all/any of the songs Karen rejected in their catalog, if left unrecorded/undocumented ?
Karen did not care for ( as we all know) Solitaire, and disliked (very much) Rainbow Connection. ( They were recorded, never-the-less.)
The (Authorized) Coleman Biography:" Richard had assumed total responsibility for everything in their career" (p.139)
And page 207, of that same book, detailing Karen's discontent with a song selection, and Richard retorting "yeah, that's right",
when Karen asked of him "..am I just the dumb singer?"
Coleman: "He had been hurt by her questioning..of his unerring selection of their material.." (ibid.)
Regarding "Look to Your Dreams" (Coleman,page 327),the song dates from 1974, when Karen asked Richard and John to write the tune:
it was recorded in 1978, and then, "Richard held it off any album during her lifetime...concerned that it was not contemporary enough.."
But, of course, we do know she requested the classic (?) "Because We are in Love" to be written for her wedding.
There is even more documentary evidence of my observation that the song selection was Richard's domain. (This not my opinion)
If Karen had had more control, Look to Your Dreams would have landed on an LP before her passing, if I read Coleman correctly.
At times, I understand that I might be ambiguous in my wording, but I do strive to document my sources whereby I have arrived at my conclusions.

I'm with you. Karen did not always go along with the song selection. This from the Ask Joe Osborne thread, he relates a testy recording session:
"after a couple of hours and several pots of coffee I was feeling better---so we started on the next song. KAREN HATED THE SONG!!! I don’t remember what it was but I’m sure Richard does. .....................Richard is trying to convince Karen that the song is great--- and she is in total disagreement! He doesn’t like the sound of the bass. By now he’s not having a very good time. .........

Karen did not have any say in this. Why didn't she just have the gumption to say "I hate this song and I'm not recording it?". Any other great singer (and she WAS the singer) would have had the clout.

 

[newvillefan]

I'm with you. Karen did not always go along with the song selection. This from the Ask Joe Osborne thread, he relates a testy recording session:
"after a couple of hours and several pots of coffee I was feeling better---so we started on the next song. KAREN HATED THE SONG!!! I don’t remember what it was but I’m sure Richard does. .....................Richard is trying to convince Karen that the song is great--- and she is in total disagreement! He doesn’t like the sound of the bass. By now he’s not having a very good time. .........

Karen did not have any say in this. Why didn't she just have the gumption to say "I hate this song and I'm not recording it?". Any other great singer (and she WAS the singer) would have had the clout.

This only goes to show that Richard was the one in control. Karen also said once that she often didn't know what they'd be recording until she got to the studio. The phrase 'control freak' springs to mind. Yet, in the Coleman book he vehemently rejected the suggestion that she was the paint on his palette.

 

[Rumbahbah]

It clearly wasn't a 50/50 division of responsibility between Karen and Richard in terms of the song selection. Richard had the upper hand, hence why he was able to get Karen to record songs that she didn't care for, like 'Superstar' and 'Solitaire'. As I understand it, Karen wasn't keen on the idea of 'Superstar' as a song but grew to love the recorded version, whereas she never liked 'Solitaire' even after it had been recorded, so the decision to release it as a single shows that Richard must have clearly had the casting vote on these things. On this, she was probably right - 'Solitaire' wasn't the right choice of single at that time.

That's not to say that Karen's instincts were always on the money. 'Sweet Sweet Smile' is not an A-list track and I think there's an interview with her from 1976 where she mentions her fondness for 'Goofus'. At the same time, according to Richard on the old Carpenters website, she didn't like 'Ordinary Fool', which I'd say is one of her top 5 best performances.

In terms of the song selection for the solo album, it depends on who you believe. The Coleman biography suggests that Phil Ramone essentially was in charge and talked Karen into choosing the type of material that was selected. I can believe that he must have certainly flagged up certain songs for her attention - the number of Paul Simon tracks ('Still Crazy...' on the album and 'I Do it For Your Love' among the outtakes), which Phil himself had produced and thus was very familiar with, would support this.

However, Randy Schmidt's biography and Phil's comments suggest that Karen was much more heavily involved in the choosing of material and on this I'm inclined to agree with them. Even though the album doesn't (despite some people's claims!) sound like Donna Summer, the change in direction taken on the solo album tallies with Karen's reported comments of what music she liked at the time she recorded it. It was her first time on her own, so she'd have needed some 'hand-holding' from Phil, but I don't get the impression that this was doing anything other than giving her a supportive environment to start making some decisions for herself.

 

[Rumbahbah]

This only goes to show that Richard was the one in control. Karen also said once that she often didn't know what they'd be recording until she got to the studio. The phrase 'control freak' springs to mind. Yet, in the Coleman book he vehemently rejected the suggestion that she was the paint on his palette.

I'd forgotten about that quote about Karen expressing her annoyance at not knowing what she'd be recording - it's in the Coleman biography. I think it's from a 1975 interview with Coleman himself? If so, then that pretty much settles that question!

 

[GaryAlan]

A few more direct quotes (Schmidt,Yesterday Once More Reader):
Melody Maker,1975:
Karen: "I recorded I Can Dream,Can't I?, and I didn't know how the damn thing went, and I kept saying
"Rich, you gotta let me know how this tune goes".
A&M Compendium,1975: Richard,".. I've selected a lot of songs..."
Melody Maker,1976: (Interviewer) I asked about the other's most irritating characteristic, and Karen came straight out
with it, "...not let me know the title or the nature of the song until we get there (recording studio)

 

[A&M Retro]

Phil Ramone gave Karen total control over every facet of the solo album's creation. She asked his opinion, but that was part of the collaborative process. Phil's book, 'Making Records', says they would drive from his house in Connecticut each morning to NYC, which was an hour's drive. Karen would have a stack of demo cassette tapes and a writing pad in front of her. They would listen to the track, and she would say, 'Hmmmm, should this go on the A or the B?', meaning A-list or B-list. He would offer his opinion, but she had the final say.

A&M had virtually nothing to do with it! If they had, they would have (stupidly) nixed some of the tracks in advance of recording. Jerry Moss himself said years later, 'We weren't exactly throwing a lot of songs her way'.

 

[Mark-T]

I do vaguely recall an ad in Billboard Magazine looking for songs from writers for an artist in the AC mode who was recording in a more different vein. Can't remember the wording, but it came out later that it was for Karen.

 

[Geographer]

[QUOTE="That said, I thoroughly enjoy “Lovelines,” even though (or maybe because?) it sounds like the them to The Love Boat.[/QUOTE]

Yeah! For all these years I thought I was te only one who thought this! And this is precisely the reason I HATE this song!