New Karen Documentary

[Jeff]

I haven't brought myself to it yet. Still nervous. Here after work the last thing I wanna do is go to bed revisiting the vivid horror. But, I will partake. I just know that things like this drive home the finality, tragedy, re-kindle the deep-seated grief which rears its ugly head as it is. Now that alcohol isn't a solution (self destruction) its either a modest attempt at denial or feeeeeeeeling. ICK! In a way tho I want to share this with Karen. I want to continue to understand her complexities for whatever reason. Maybe closure. That will never be. Sounds kinda unfeeling but as much as I loved and adored my Father...I skated thru his untimely death by comparison. I'll watch it when I'm better prepared for a major depressive event. It's not like I'm clueless about the disorder and its subsequent mortality rate. It's almost like if I watched it right after posting here it'd be some weird ass rude awakening and I'd be all...Oh my god I don't believe she's dead. For the time being I've gotta find my happy place and quick. Rainy days and autopsies always......

Jeff

 

[GaryAlan]

I have mixed feelings regarding this documentary.
After a second perusal of the program, I spot even more inaccuracies.
And many questions arise regarding the remarks made by the doctor's analysis of the medical evidence.
The interview with Dennis Heath makes no mention of Karen's 'ministroke' on January 14 ( chronicled in Coleman's book).
The BMI charts are not static, and an 18.5 reading is on the edge of Underweight, not really normal as stated by the doctor.
They were to go into the studio in March, the program references that they were already in the studio in January.
This doctor states evidence of heart abnormalities that are not referenced in either Biography, and note "normal myocardial fibers"
clearly shown on the report. (He states Karen went from healthy to gone, in less than a week, that is not an accurate reflection.)
Research shows that Anorexia is much more than simply a psychological disorder, with possible inherent physiologic predispositions.
The program shows Karen arriving with Richard in Topeka, for his treatment. I believe that is in error.(She visited after his initial check-in).
The program has March 11, 1983 as the date of Good Morning America interview, that should be November 1983.
The program has the clip of We've Only Just Begun as 1970, that is an October 1973 clip.(1973 Bob Hope Special).
The program states that school kids referred to Karen as "Fatso". Randy's book, page 44, states that Karen and Richard would
tease each other, he calling her that term, and she responding with "Four-Eyes". No evidence that anyone else used that term.

Well, draw one's own conclusions, but I will not belabor the point. (Not at this juncture, anyway!).
...because, there are more issues to raise regarding the accuracy of the program.
I always remember the ET interview where Levenkron states: "When Karen left his office, she practiced no more anorexic behaviors,
and he felt that she was cured" (How can he ever make such a statement! ).

Yes, I am nitpicking, but to do Karen's memory justice, standards of accuracy must be upheld.

 

[newvillefan]

The interview with Dennis Heath makes no mention of Karen's 'ministroke' on January 14 ( chronicled in Coleman's book)..

Karen's 'ministroke' happened in 1978 when they were at the Morsound rehearsals for the upcoming trip to the UK for the Bruce Forsythe show, not in 1983.

This doctor states evidence of heart abnormalities that are not referenced in either Biography.

Neither Coleman nor Randy are qualified pathologists so I'd forgive them for not picking up on that.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I've only watched this one time and admit on not picking up on all these inaccurate dates. I think I was too captivated about what they were going to be talking about and issues that have not really been talked about on any documentaries in the past, after all this was Karen and what are they saying about her. Thanks Gary for pointing out these inaccuracies.

For me, when programs like this don't get easy facts correct, it makes me wonder about all the other things they are saying in the docu. I think there were too many times that certain scenes were over-played (taking a sip from the bottle). The imagery was excessive one or 2 times and we get it but they showed it over and over and over, parts like that don't sit well with me but this is made for TV, they want to grab the viewers and stay tuned. A TV show like this only has so much time to fit material in so it's expected much was left out like the marriage and solo album (of which are important end times of her life) but shows like this need to stress more drama and sensationalism to keep it's viewers on edge. Why cut away to a happier time in her life (her marriage & solo album) even if it was short lived.

I haven't watched it a 2nd time but I'm with Gary above in that for Karen's memory, accuracy must be first and foremost. I have mixed feelings as well. Does one walk away and say well I believe parts of this but not the whole?

 

[GaryAlan]

I did not clarify a previous statement regarding the documentary.
The (A)report shown in this new documentary shows "Normal myocardial fibers", it is the pathologist
on this program who has deviated from that finding.(Enlarge the screen when the said report briefly appears).
Randy and Coleman's (especially) Biographies simply recount (from another pathologist)
that " from the findings of the report you can not understand the cause of Karen's demise as stated in the document".
This new documentary, while of some interest for the (un-)(mis-) informed public, is hardly presenting anything new, and is not
necessarily being accurate.
And, at times, downright misleading,if not inaccurate.
Duly noted, I am also not a pathologist.

 

[newvillefan]

Why cut away to a happier time in her life (her marriage & solo album) even if it was short lived.

I think that's because the vast majority of the public don't know she was married or cut a solo album. It's the hardcore fans like us that probably look out for tidbits we didn't already know about lesser known parts of her life.

 

[A&M Retro]

But, the sad part is those moments (solo album and marriage) played a HUGE part in Karen's psychological undoing. Thus, they should have been included or at least mentioned.

It's like not mentioning Yoko Ono in a Beatles documentary. As much as Beatles fans might not have liked her, she played an important part in their later history.

 

[MissK]

Karen's 'ministroke' happened in 1978 when they were at the Morsound rehearsals for the upcoming trip to the UK for the Bruce Forsythe show, not in 1983.



Neither Coleman nor Randy are qualified pathologists so I'd forgive them for not picking up on that.

I'm skeptical about this "ministroke" thing for three reasons:
1. Strokes are rare in 28 yr old women - unless on birth control pills, which is a risk factor
2. Strokes, mini or otherwise, are not taken lightly. If she did go to a Dr. as Richard only "believed" there would have been treatment and some follow-up. "ministroke" medically referred to as Trans Ischemic Attack (TIA) can be a forerunner of a more serious and damaging stroke.
3. I tend to think this was self-diagnosed. It may be easy to think that numbness or weakness on one side of the body is a stroke. But in Karen's case it was only her face affected. This could be caused by other things (Bell's Palsy, e.g.)

But, alas, only a review of all her medical records would reveal what really happened.

 

[newvillefan]

I thought this was why the Admin team had asked us to discuss via private PM

 

[MissK]

I thought this was why the Admin team had asked us to discuss via private PM

I'm signed up for the PM but I'm a little confused as well

 

[wideawakeat4am]

This doctor states evidence of heart abnormalities that are not referenced in either Biography, and note "normal myocardial fibers"
clearly shown on the report. (He states Karen went from healthy to gone, in less than a week, that is not an accurate reflection.)

That was rather dramatic language I agree. I think that Dr Shepherd may have just meant that Karen still had time to turn things around a week or so before she passed.

I thought this was why the Admin team had asked us to discuss via private PM

I think Harry just wants anything too graphic to be taken off the board.

 

[GaryAlan]

My apologies.
I inferred that members should refrain from graphic language or graphic images,regarding this documentary.
To wit, a standard I believe I have held to, when referencing the program's inaccuracies.
Karen deserves better.
I will cordially abstain from any further public comment on this documentary.
And, of course, I am more than happy to share my observations in private conversation.

 

[byline]

I did catch a few errors. The subtitle for Karen's last night at Bob's Big Boy stated 'September 3rd, 1983'. Big oops. Then, they never went into why the dinner with Dennis Heath was important, and what had happened prior to Karen getting up from the table. Weird.

I need to reread Randy's book. Was this when Karen got a strange look on her face and put her hand on her chest, then got up and went to the restroom? And then when she returned, she acted like nothing had happened?

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Did anyone notice the interview they showed of Richard being interviewed inside the newville home (I believe it was the music room) they showed a really good shot of the Carpenters Neon Sign in the background behind Richard. I WANT one of these!!!!

 

[byline]

OK, I read the relevant passage in Randy's book, which I didn't describe very accurately in my earlier post. Here's the quoted text:

On January 14, Karen met Richard and former college friend Dennis Heath for dinner , again at St. Germain. She startled the two when she stopped eating, put down the knife and fork, and looked at them as if frightened or in pain. She struggled to speak but couldn't. After a lengthy visit to the ladies' room, Karen returned and assured Dennis and Richard she was fine. After dinner the three drove to nearby A&M Studios, where they listened to playbacks from the April 1982 sessions.​

You're right, A&M Retro. It's odd that they didn't point out such a major detail.

 

[HAPPYONE]

the channel 5 programme was better than expected,sad at times but gave a real insight into how truly ill Karen was,as it said if she had been around today there would have been much more help for her and she probably would have survived.

 

[A&M Retro]

Yeah, according to the Coleman book, when Richard asked her,"What IS it?", Karen replied, "Something....something....", and that's all she could or would tell him. She later told Richard regarding that moment that she had gotten her period back and was feeling ill. But who knows if that's really what was happening at that moment?

My gut feeling is she was scared of what was going on, but kept it hidden from everyone. Keep in mind she also told Frenda she was seeing spots before her eyes. Sadly, there were many warning signs. But also keep in mind that Karen had gone to visit her doctor on January 10th (the day before the Grammy photo session). You would think he would have detected a problem at that time, but apparently he did not. Agnes asked the doctor about the visit, but he declined to tell her due to patient confidentiality.

 

[byline]

I agree, A&M Retro. Very sad. Who knows what Karen and the doctor discussed? But as you note, if something had been really amiss at that time, surely he would have had her hospitalized. The sad thing is that given what she was describing to others (heart palpitations, etc.), she was experiencing arrhythmia even then, but it might not have been happening consistently enough to be detected during that particular appointment. If only she'd had an episode when she went to see her doctor. I don't know if it could have changed the outcome, though. It sounds like the damage was done, and it was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened.

I suspect that along with the fear, there may have been an element of shame involved, as well. By this time I think Karen may have realized, despite her deep-seated denial, that the physical symptoms she was experiencing were linked to her eating disorder. However, she may not have realized that they were caused by permanent damage to her heart. Maybe she thought of it as a chemical imbalance that could be corrected; if she consumed enough food, she could put her body back in balance, and the symptoms would go away. Impossible to know now.

 

[Someday]

In January 1983, Karen was apparently 'glowing' at 108 Ibs. Ha! It has been well-documented that she had looked unwell. The narration on this show was pretty bad at times.

 

[A&Mguyfromwayback]

If I had listened to only the audio of the program, I would have found it interesting, a bleak but informative discussion of Karen's illness - but I have to say, parts of the video sickened me. I hate (actually I should say, HATE) actor re-creations like this, although I know they're commonplace in documentaries now. It takes the whole thing to a weird and very creepy place.

None of this will help the legacy of the Carpenters' music. Neither will things like the clip of "Top Of The World" in the "Dark Shadows" movie - lazy cultural shorthand for bland 70s MOR (nobody saw that movie so who cares, but just for example). In my humble opinion which means absolutely nothing, the only thing that WILL make a difference is not another greatest hits album, not a biopic, but for people to hear the music again on its own terms. Hopefully some filmmaker (or more than one) will use an extended clip of their song in a movie the way a director like Richard Curtis (Notting Hill, Four Wedding And A Funeral) embraces a song and actually lets it play to underscore the scene. Certain artists have been rediscovered because of their music being used that way. I pray people get to experience this music the way we all did when "Close To You" or whatever first poured out of the radio......

 

[Don Malcolm]

If I had listened to only the audio of the program, I would have found it interesting, a bleak but informative discussion of Karen's illness - but I have to say, parts of the video sickened me. I hate (actually I should say, HATE) actor re-creations like this, although I know they're commonplace in documentaries now. It takes the whole thing to a weird and very creepy place.

None of this will help the legacy of the Carpenters' music. Neither will things like the clip of "Top Of The World" in the "Dark Shadows" movie - lazy cultural shorthand for bland 70s MOR (nobody saw that movie so who cares, but just for example). In my humble opinion which means absolutely nothing, the only thing that WILL make a difference is not another greatest hits album, not a biopic, but for people to hear the music again on its own terms. Hopefully some filmmaker (or more than one) will use an extended clip of their song in a movie the way a director like Richard Curtis (Notting Hill, Four Wedding And A Funeral) embraces a song and actually lets it play to underscore the scene. Certain artists have been rediscovered because of their music being used that way. I pray people get to experience this music the way we all did when "Close To You" or whatever first poured out of the radio......

I think it became necessary to pad the show with the reenactments to bring it up to the allotted running time. (Frankly, the doctor repeats himself constantly and the whole thing is padded in that way.) While Lucy Drive was pretty good as a Karen stand-in, the rest of the people were much less suitable, and any weak link in such a presentation is going to drag it down into the kind of muck that I think we would all like to avoid when forced to (re)visit the terrible tragedy of Karen's untimely demise.

Could not agree with you more about the need for a "liberating moment" via some type of artistic intervention. Something like that is long overdue. IMO it's the early portion of their career that has the best chance to do that, but it might have to be a song that isn't so well-known.

 

[A&Mguyfromwayback]

Is it just me, or did the actor 'playing' Richard look absolutely nothing like Richard Carpenter......

 

[A&M Retro]

It's not just you. I agree. Wrong hair, too.

 

[Tony P]

I think all of you folks who are spotting errors and inaccuracies might be expecting a little too much?
Just look at this an "Info-mentry" to give you a "possible" insight as what events led to her untimely death were and speculation as what the actual events were.

At times this thread has overtones of a "Ghoul-fest" and attempting to pin-point the exact reason and how she died...

Cant we just all focus on her music, her gift to us all and remember her greatness in passing.....

 

[Jeff]

I succumbed...