Solo Album and Single Success

[GaryAlan]

I am unable to locate any authoritative "sales" figures for any of the Solo albums (Karen or Richard).

Be that a sit may,
I have always found it strange that there appears to be no detailed mention--by anyone--
regarding "Playbacks" of (less-than-strong) albums such as Kind Of Hush or Made In America.
Now, Coleman writes:
"Herb Alpert, visiting the studio during the making of the album (Hush), asked Richard if he was happy
about everything....but, later, it would be evident to Richard that on this occasion he was politely registering
that the album was not quite up to their standard." (page 210).

This is interesting.
Coleman does not write of an opinion given "during playbacks."
Neither Hush nor MIA receive commentary in Coleman regards to any "playback."
Playback--I presume--is done by "the powers that be" when the album is delivered to A&M records.

So, this is another manner in which Karen's solo album was treated on a different 'playing field.'
(1) "The customary 'playback' for senior A&M executives was set up." (page 270).
(2) "Trusting (Derek) Green's ears, Jerry Moss asked him to fly into NY to hear the initial playback
of the songs in the studio."
(3) "Flying back to LA, Green faced an attempt to soften him up with a playback of tracks that had been
doctored and refined."

 

[David A]

The sales numbers for these albums must exist 'somewhere', I'd think. Hmmmm...now I have a new hobby

 

[Carpe diem]

Had this album been released as planned (before the infamous west coast play back session), I believe the best choice for a single release going into the summer of 1980 would've been Making Love In The Afternoon. Nice beat, nice electric guitar riff, nice hook, KC vocals, backing vocals from Peter Cetera, nice flow to the entire track. Could've done just as well on the charts as Touch Me... if not better. Another song from the album Make Believe It's Your First Time, great Karen vocal without all the souped-up overproduction. Might have been a hit on the AC chart that summer. The only thing that could've held it back was Bobby Vinton's version that reached #17 (on the AC chart) in 1979 (according to Wikipedia).

 

[GaryAlan]

^^I find it implausible that Bobby Vinton's version of MBIYFT
could have held anyone's version back--especially Karen's reading !

 

[David A]

Just an observation, I listened to 'Jimmy Mack' and felt it was a poster-song for Karen singing in MUCH too high a key. Her voice, while good, loses so much power and emotive quality, in my view.

I've not read this anywhere but I wonder if Karen felt that her signature vocal sound and range was too "Carpenters" for her solo effort, and a conscious decision was made to stay out of her signature range, for the most part. If so, I wish someone would have told her that her signature voice was HERS, not property of the Carpenters.

 

[Carpe diem]

^^I find it implausible that Bobby Vinton's version of MBIYFT
could have held anyone's version back--especially Karen's reading !

Are you sure GaryAlan? Give another listen :


I wasn't referring to "artistry" of course, but to possible "fatigue" of the record-buying public to the song...

 

[GaryAlan]

^^Well, I did give that one another listening to--
but, gee, I just think that it is really awful !
Even ignoring the 'artistry' aspect of it,
fatigue sets in after one spin !

 

[Carpe diem]

Just an observation, I listened to 'Jimmy Mack' and felt it was a poster-song for Karen singing in MUCH too high a key. Her voice, while good, loses so much power and emotive quality, in my view.

I've not read this anywhere but I wonder if Karen felt that her signature vocal sound and range was too "Carpenters" for her solo effort, and a conscious decision was made to stay out of her signature range, for the most part. If so, I wish someone would have told her that her signature voice was HERS, not property of the Carpenters.

Agree. She seemed to force-it on that song, didn't seem natural. Wasn't that the whole gripe about the solo effort; that Karen/Phil Ramone had stolen the "Carpenter Sound"? Had to be referring to her voice as nothing on the album sounds like "The Carpenters", which is exactly what she wanted. While we are on the subject, another one from the solo sessions that got away was Truly You. Loved the whole driving acoustic guitar aspect of that song, but in places the lyrics seem to fall all over each other. I think with a little TLC that song could've worked.

 

[newvillefan]

Just an observation, I listened to 'Jimmy Mack' and felt it was a poster-song for Karen singing in MUCH too high a key. Her voice, while good, loses so much power and emotive quality, in my view.

Karen loses all her magic when she goes up too high. Jimmy Mack is probably the best example there is of that. I’ve got no idea what they were thinking recording it in that key. She just managed to keep to the right side of the line with Touch Me When We’re Dancing, because the song has some lower moments too.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Are you sure GaryAlan? Give another listen :


I wasn't referring to "artistry" of course, but to possible "fatigue" of the record-buying public to the song...

That is just awful. Yikes. Bobby doesn’t sound like he’s into it and the production is all kinds of overdone.

Ed

 

[Rumbahbah]

Just an observation, I listened to 'Jimmy Mack' and felt it was a poster-song for Karen singing in MUCH too high a key. Her voice, while good, loses so much power and emotive quality, in my view.

I've not read this anywhere but I wonder if Karen felt that her signature vocal sound and range was too "Carpenters" for her solo effort, and a conscious decision was made to stay out of her signature range, for the most part. If so, I wish someone would have told her that her signature voice was HERS, not property of the Carpenters.

Definitely agree about 'Jimmy Mack'. She's singing far too high on it and it's also the wrong choice of song for her to be doing. It thoroughly deserves its status as an outtake.

I'm not so sure about your other point though. One of the two urban myths that have been peddled forever about the solo album (along with it all being disco) is that Karen was singing too high on it. She certainly strays a little out of her usual range on a few tracks, but there are plenty - 'If We Try', 'If I Had You', 'Still Crazy', 'Lovelines', 'My Body Keeps Changing My Mind' - where for the most part her usual basement voice is in evidence in abundance, even if she's singing more uptempo songs rather than ballads with it. In fact, only on two tracks - 'Making Love in the Afternoon' and 'Still in Love with You' - is she singing high for most of the song. Perhaps it's no coincidence that they're also my two least-favourite songs on the album.

Re Bobby Vinton's version of 'Make Believe It's Your First Time', I'd quite forgotten about that. It's not a great version and Karen's solo recording is far superior. I do wonder though whether it could have been a single, given how recently Vinton's version had been released (I think it grazed the Hot 100 as well) - this was the same problem the Carpenters had had in the late 1970s, releasing tracks like 'I Believe You' that had already been recent hits for other artists. Unless the original release is a total flop, it's going to take the edge off your version because there's already some identification of the song with someone else.

 

[GaryAlan]

Alabama's 1986 version of Touch Me When We're Dancing
flew high on the charts that year (#1 country, if memory serves).
At that time, virtually no one mentioned Carpenters' "hit" version !
Even the group Alabama failed to explicitly give a 'nod' to the Carpenters' version (1981).
And, let us not forget 'Bama released their version (they wrote it) in 1979.

I really do not believe (my opinion) that Bobby Vinton's version of MBIYFT
would have had any impact, had Karen released her version.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Making Love in the Afternoon and Still in Love with You are 2 of my most favorites off her album. Those and My Body and Remember When Lovin’ all sound so Olivia ish with Karen using her higher vocals. I love them.

 

[CraigGA]

Making Love in the Afternoon and Still in Love with You are 2 of my most favorites off her album. Those and My Body and Remember When Lovin’ all sound so Olivia ish with Karen using her higher vocals. I love them.

I enjoy the solo album and wish two others, possibly three songs were added from ones yet unrealesed. Would it have sold? I think since it had been awhile since we heard Karen it would have had sales, not monumental, but enough to accomplish its goal. The songs I like rotate well when mixed with Carpenters branded tunes. And, I love the Rod Temperton harmony vocal treatment that Karen sang in the backing vocals.

 

[David A]

Definitely agree about 'Jimmy Mack'. She's singing far too high on it and it's also the wrong choice of song for her to be doing. It thoroughly deserves its status as an outtake.

I'm not so sure about your other point though. One of the two urban myths that have been peddled forever about the solo album (along with it all being disco) is that Karen was singing too high on it. She certainly strays a little out of her usual range on a few tracks, but there are plenty - 'If We Try', 'If I Had You', 'Still Crazy', 'Lovelines', 'My Body Keeps Changing My Mind' - where for the most part her usual basement voice is in evidence in abundance, even if she's singing more uptempo songs rather than ballads with it. In fact, only on two tracks - 'Making Love in the Afternoon' and 'Still in Love with You' - is she singing high for most of the song. Perhaps it's no coincidence that they're also my two least-favourite songs on the album.[SNIP]
.

Not sure I agree that it's urban myth that Karen spends way too much time in her higher register. On occasion she hits her signature notes, but the overall 'feeling' one gets after listening to the entire album is that she spends too much time in her head voice (if you prefer her chest voice). 'Lovelines' is one you mention where I'd make the point that while it's true there are some lower notes here and there, the song as a whole spends way too much time in a higher key.

I'm going to give the album another complete listen.

I do agree that 'If We Try' is one where she spends much of the song in her signature range.

 

[newvillefan]

I love the Rod Temperton harmony vocal treatment that Karen sang in the backing vocals.

That’s probably my favourite thing about the solo album. Rod had her performing all sorts of complex chords in those backing vocals, some of which are nothing like what we’d heard in the backing vocals she’d with Richard up to that point. The closest the came to replicating that sound was the 1980 track Without A Song.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

That’s probably my favourite thing about the solo album. Rod had her performing all sorts of complex chords in those backing vocals, some of which are nothing like what we’d heard in the backing vocals she’d with Richard up to that point. The closest the came to replicating that sound was the 1980 track Without A Song.

Agreed totally. Richard complained about "Carpenter-esque vocal sounds" and that made zero sense. Richard's vocal arrangements were based in choral work. Rod's were based in Jazz. Completely different voicings.

Ed

 

[Jamesj75]

Much has been made about Karen's deviation from the norm in this solo effort. I believe she had to deviate from the norm! She was ostensibly on her own for the first time in her life... Of course, she would branch out. Of course, she would leave her comfort zone: she was already working with a new producer and new musicians. But she was also singing in a higher key (largely), recording disco music, and vocalizing suggestive lyrics. (Frankly, I still maintain that the suggestive lyrics were beneath her, but I understand her desire to go that route, again attempting something different.) New sounds would abound. Sadly, we'll never know how this album would have fared critically or commercially had it been released upon completion. Even far from healthy, Karen bravely ventured into new territory. And that remains part of her legacy...

 

[David A]

Much has been made about Karen's deviation from the norm in this solo effort. I believe she had to deviate from the norm! She was ostensibly on her own for the first time in her life... Of course, she would branch out. Of course, she would leave her comfort zone: she was already working with a new producer and new musicians. But she was also singing in a higher key (largely), recording disco music, and vocalizing suggestive lyrics. (Frankly, I still maintain that the suggestive lyrics were beneath her, but I understand her desire to go that route, again attempting something different.) New sounds would abound. Sadly, we'll never know how this album would have fared critically or commercially had it been released upon completion. Even far from healthy, Karen bravely ventured into new territory. And that remains part of her legacy...

Agreed that Karen had to branch out - both for artistic growth and what I consider a legitimate need to stay away from the "Carpenters sound". Whether she branched out in the RIGHT direction; or whether she was well-served by those guiding her during this phase of her career, we can all debate until those wacky cows come home. I agree with you that she went at bit overboard with the sexually suggestive songs - that choice was clearly made to try to shake her goody-two-shoes image. Of course, it's easy for us with hindsight to make these judgments...

And as I mentioned before, staying away from Richard's style of building a song made sense; Karen singing outside the vocal range for which she was best loved, IF that was done to also avoid sounding "too much like the Carpenters", was a mistake in my opinion. I would even suggest that sexually evocative songs would have been better served by Karen's emotive, deeper chest voice.

 

[GaryAlan]

I ask this: What was Karen (and, Phil) supposed to do ?
1977: For Passage, they had already turned-back other Producers for the album.
1978: A&M did not want a Country album by Carpenters. Richard had handed over much of the production
of Christmas Portrait to others.
1979: Richard was taking-a-year-break from recording. And, as Herb Alpert said in an interview,
"we weren't exactly giving them (Phil and Karen) anything to work with."
Why did the powers-that-be not even suggest "a standards-type" album ?
1979: Phil, in Billboard Magazine, specified exactly what this album would entail
No one stepped in at that juncture.

Literature:
Billboard, May 5th, 1979:
"Now, Karen Carpenter will cut a solo album for A&M with Phil
Ramone producing. Explains Ramone, "We're going to go a
totally different direction with Karen, more into rock and funky
stuff"


Billboard, April 12, 1980,page 36: " Phil Ramone producing vocal overdubs with Karen Carpenter."
Billboard, April 19,1980, page 89:
The major project Ramone has been working on since completing Billy Joel's "Glass Houses" (the
singer's third consecutive LP to hit the top three on Billboard's pop album chart) is Karen Carpenter's
first solo project after nine studio LPs in the Carpenters. Ramone and Carpenter picked the tunes,
including Paul Simon's "Still Crazy After All These Years," and two by Rod Temperton of Heat -
wave fame, writer of current top 30 smashes by Michael Jackson and the Brothers Johnson.
Ramone agrees that the mix is a bit eclectic. "They're not necessarily songs that the Carpenters would
have chosen." he says. Ramone notes that when he began working with Carpenter, the first non -writer
he's produced, he put out a call for middle -tempo material, "where she could be languid but not quite as
languid. "It' was amazing," he says. "The songs I got back were exactly what she had done before,
even though I called writers who aren't in the MOR field. Once you've been in a mold for a long time,
people tend to classify you and don't ever think you can change." The band on the album contains
no carryovers from Carpenters sessions. It features Billy Joel's rhythm section, Louis Johnson, Bob James
and Michael Brecker, among others."

Billboard, June 7, 1980,page 66: Says five -time Grammy- winner Phil Ramone,
"Naturally I'm disappointed, but if the album had come out with her tied up in the studio and
unable to play clubs and concerts, that would have defeated it." "She had to deal with the possibility
of one career hurting the other; this LP was stylistically different from a regular Carpenters album.
My fear, as I told her, is that I don't want people to think we made a stiff album and nobody wants to
put it out."

 

[tomswift2002]

Still it would’ve been interesting to have seen at least 2 of the songs put out as a test single in 1979-80. While we’ll never know how well it would’ve done, we can get some idea since (albeit in remix form) “If I Had You” did hit the charts in 89.

 

[Sue]

Billboard, June 7, 1980,page 66: Says five -time Grammy- winner Phil Ramone,
"Naturally I'm disappointed, but if the album had come out with her tied up in the studio and
unable to play clubs and concerts, that would have defeated it." "She had to deal with the possibility
of one career hurting the other; this LP was stylistically different from a regular Carpenters album.
My fear, as I told her, is that I don't want people to think we made a stiff album and nobody wants to

I’m just wondering whether actually promoting the album on her own might have been a step too far considering her health and confidence at the time. We may think she was strong enough but surely she wouldn’t have been so ill if she really was confident enough. If negative comments came from those who she most respected, not solely Richard, how would she feel playing concerts and clubs as the lone star? We know artistically she had everything but perhaps she just couldn’t do it alone. Recording the album with people she trusted was one thing but actually standing up there on stage doing a solo concert must have been a daunting thought! Perhaps I’m wrong but I think there is more to A&M’s decision not to put it out.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I’m just wondering whether actually promoting the album on her own might have been a step too far considering her health and confidence at the time. We may think she was strong enough but surely she wouldn’t have been so ill if she really was confident enough. If negative comments came from those who she most respected, not solely Richard, how would she feel playing concerts and clubs as the lone star? We know artistically she had everything but perhaps she just couldn’t do it alone. Recording the album with people she trusted was one thing but actually standing up there on stage doing a solo concert must have been a daunting thought! Perhaps I’m wrong but I think there is more to A&M’s decision not to put it out.

You may very well be right but surely all of that would have been thought of before she went about the process of recording it. She couldn’t have been in great shape then so touring likely would have been our. Still, she could have done talk shows and the like. Easier (though not easy) and it gets the job done.

Ed

 

[Toolman]

You may very well be right but surely all of that would have been thought of before she went about the process of recording it. She couldn’t have been in great shape then so touring likely would have been our. Still, she could have done talk shows and the like. Easier (though not easy) and it gets the job done.

Ed

And for that matter, did they think it would be any easier on her for the people she loved and trusted to say her work was so bad, it was unreleasable? I mean, you're not saving her pain either way. She already put her time, money, and pride into it. Give it a chance. Let the market make the call..if it fails, THEN you show her love and support. Don't knock her down and then say you did it out of concern for her well-being.

 

[David A]

And for that matter, did they think it would be any easier on her for the people she loved and trusted to say her work was so bad, it was unreleasable? I mean, you're not saving her pain either way. She already put her time, money, and pride into it. Give it a chance. Let the market make the call..if it fails, THEN you show her love and support. Don't knock her down and then say you did it out of concern for her well-being.

If they truly thought it was unworthy of release then at least part of that decision was a business decision. Caring about her feelings wouldn't compel them to put out an album they felt certain would lose money, on top of hurting Karen's feelings and career.