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The Singles... That never were

Discussion in 'A Song For You: The Carpenters Forum' started by Simon KC1950, Jun 17, 2018.

  1. Rumbahbah

    Rumbahbah Well-Known Member

    The timing of his family commitments certainly wouldn't have helped the album's cause, but I don't know if a tour would have made all that much difference to its sales. Would he have been able to attract much of a crowd without Karen and what format would it have taken, given that several of the songs on Time were sung by other people than him? It's hard to avoid the idea of it leaning very heavily on the Carpenters' back catalogue, as his 1997 shows were to do, rather than showcasing him as a solo artist.
  2. arthowson

    arthowson Active Member

    Can you listen to Goodbye to Love from this set? I wonder if it's longer than the others… and additional "I'll say goodbye to love"
  3. newvillefan

    newvillefan Well-Known Member

    Completely agree with both points above. The single with Dusty should never have been released because by that point she had made it clear she wasn't willing to undertake any promotional activity for it. It was a complete waste of time putting it out as his big comeback as a solo artist when it's not even him singing. He would have been better to go with one of the songs with his vocal, especially I'm Still Not Over You. That's one of the highlights of the album for me and the lyrics especially poignant given Karen's passing. I think it would have resonated with people.
    Kristopher likes this.
  4. Harry

    Harry Charter A&M Corner Member Moderator

    While checking out the possibility of editing "This Masquerade" down to a radio-friendly single length - (yes, it's possible_ - I thought I'd tackle "I Just Fall In Move Again" too, as it's always reported as being too long for a radio single. WEll, I don't know if I buy the premise totally. Yes, radio liked "get in, get out" records, but they were known to grant exceptions in the case of really superior long songs. In the 60s there was "Hey Jude" and "MacArthur Park", and the 70s were filled with extra-long Elton John and Paul McCartney singles.

    Is "I Just Fall In Love Again" by Carpenters in that league? I never thought so. I always thought Karen sounded liked she was at the end of a cold and somewhat nasal sounding on that track.

    As for editing, the double key-change presents the biggest obstacle in "I Just Fall In Love Again". The song modulates up a half note for the orchestral swell, then modulates another half note up for the vocal finale. I decided to try a modern technique to accomplish what George Martin did with "Strawberry Fields Forever". That song was famously recorded twice, once kind of simply, and once with added orchestral flourishes. John wanted the two edited together so it started with the simple version and then concluded with the orchestral flourish version. But they were in two different keys and he told George Martin, well, you can fix that, surely. George Martin had to speed up (raise) one part and slow down (lower) another, and it worked. Today you can hear the edit at exactly the one-minute mark.

    So, I put "I Just Fall In Love Again" in Audacity and found my desired edit point - the word "I" in "...and oh, I just fall...".
    I cut the song at that point in the first time through, and then picked it up at that same point the second time through.
    Surprisingly, that got the song down to around the 3:00 mark in length, but we had two parts with an abrupt key change that sounded awful.

    Using the George Martin technique, I sped up the first part by a full note, and slowed down the second half by a full note, to account for the two key changes. The results were quite bad. When Karen's voice in the first part is sped up by a full note, her vocal went into chipmunk-sounding territory. The lowered part didn't sound too bad.

    So I tried leaving the first part alone and lowering the second part by two full tones. At that point, Karen's latter half sounded whiney and draggy. Can't win - it's just not possible.
  5. Thanks for the eye opener on the editing, Harry. I'm convinced and will give up the 40-year "should have been a single" tirade.

    Little matter now anyway.

    However, I respectfully disagree with your criticism of the track itself. In fact, I feel it's such a major-league player in the Carpenters discography that every time my iPhone shuffle lands on the track ... well ... the title says it all.

    But -- hey! -- it's a free country.

    At least at this writing.


    Carpe diem likes this.
  6. Harry

    Harry Charter A&M Corner Member Moderator

    Yeah, many really love that track. I don't hate it, but the nasal-sounding Karen bothers me. I wish they'd waited and re-recorded her lead with another take.
  7. I thought you'd get a kick out of "zombie apocalypse" graph, Harry. (Hope I made you laugh.)


    As for "IJFILA," I don't hear the nasal. But I proudly hail from Rochester, N.Y., sinus-infection capital of the world. So, I wouldn't.
  8. Carpe diem

    Carpe diem Well-Known Member

    Re: IJFILA: Just makes me crazy that the second-runner-up of all nasaly female vocalists (The queen is Helen Reddy) Anne Murray, was able to "one up" the great Karen Carpenter and make this a huge hit two years after the fact. As has been stated in the threads of this great forum many times, if Karen's performance was not BURIED under a tsunami of oboes, harps, fuzz guitar, OK Chorale(?), etc; it most certainly coulda, shoulda, woulda, been a hit back in 1977. Is it true that they recorded this song in the A&M Studios parking lot?!
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  9. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    I Just Fall In Love Again....
    Gee, I remain the dissenter.
    Not only do I not hear any 'nasally' vocals,
    the arrangement (imho) is fantastic--yes, even bombastic--but, it speaks to me.
    Certainly, the song was recorded in an A&M studio, I've read nothing to suggest otherwise.

    NB: I love Helen Reddy, I don't hear any 'nasally' vocals there, either.
    Eyewire and Geographer like this.
  10. newvillefan

    newvillefan Well-Known Member

    Not only does she sound like she had cold while recording it, but she’s drowned out by the overbearing arrangement, especially in the final chorus. To my knowledge the track has never had the remix treatment, so it will be interesting to see what Richard does with the lead vocal for the RPO mix. Look at the difference a remix did for Karen’s lead vocals on Yesterday Once More. On the remixes her voice is fuller, richer-sounding with much more presence.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
    CarpentersToYou and Carpe diem like this.
  11. Chris

    Chris Active Member

    I agree that Karen sounded like she had a cold on "I Just Fall In Love Again". I always thought so. Even so, I think it was a mistake not to release it as a single. Even with the over production, it's one heck of a recording. While it could have been more intimate as many have said, I can excuse the big arrangement since the lyrics talk about "take me to a star.. heaven is that moment.." etc. The grand production does sound like a trip through the universe in a star filled sky in that sense and is sort of fitting. I love the fuzz guitar solo in it as well. Gorgeous and masterful. Since Richard was worried about over-length, and as Harry said it's not easy to edit, but I feel that it would have been helped a bit by cutting out the opening instrumentation all together and just have it begin with Karen's immediate vocal.."Dreamin'.."
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  12. New Horizons.

    New Horizons. Active Member

    Regarding Anne Murray ( I'm a fan of hers and Carpenters equally)Anne did a live by request show in 2003 for Canadian tv.
    Anne is asked to sing I just fall in love again and tells a story that the song was originally recorded by her idol Dusty Springfield and wasn't a hit BY Dusty.Dusty was then mad at Anne for recording it and having a hit with it.Anne says she was presented with the song and had she known Dusty had recorded it, Anne would never have released it.Anne and Dusty became good friends.Carpenters never got mentioned.
    I still have to go with 'You' as the single that should have been and should be even now.Terry Wogan used to play it quite a few times on BBC radio.
    Chris likes this.
  13. GaryAlan

    GaryAlan Well-Known Member

    I recall first hearing the entire Passage LP, late 1977.
    Immediately--and, since, the song
    I Just Fall In Love Again,
    has stuck with me.
    The arrangement--bombastic, yet moving !
    The vocals--soaring !
    As far as I was concerned--and, especially since I first heard Anne Murray's Single,
    the Carpenters' version is singular in its approach and its execution.
    Never has a Carpenters' song been so under-appreciated by the masses, imho.
    I love it.
    Jamesj75, Chris and Geographer like this.
  14. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Well-Known Member

    I was just thinking, with Thanksgiving coming up this weekend, one track that should’ve been a single in 1984 was “Home For The Holidays”. Years ago I read that songs composers had written the song for Thanksgiving, hence the reference to pumpkin pie. Plus Richard appeared on Solid Gold Christmas 1984 singing a different arrangement, but still it should’ve been released as a 45, maybe backed with AOFC.
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  15. Harry

    Harry Charter A&M Corner Member Moderator

    Yes, it was originally written with Thanksgiving in mind.

    But have you ever heard a radio station play "Thanksgiving music"? No - because there really isn't much.
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  16. newvillefan

    newvillefan Well-Known Member

    The single edit of Calling Occupants springs to mind, although it would only have chopped 0:14 off the track, making it slightly more palatable at 3:51 in length if they’d gone for it as a single.
    Chris likes this.
  17. Actorman

    Actorman Active Member

    Agree and agree. :)
    Jamesj75 likes this.
  18. Harry

    Harry Charter A&M Corner Member Moderator

    Listen to the line "Heaven is the moment". I hear it all over, but that line has the "nasality" rather plainly.
    Chris likes this.
  19. Rick-An Ordinary Fool

    Rick-An Ordinary Fool Well-Known Member

    Better to promote Mr. Postman...waiting for mailman to bring those thanksgiving and christmas cards. :laugh:
  20. CraigGA

    CraigGA Well-Known Member

    I think that’s the way it sits in her range coming in and out of the phrases surrounding it. Kinda like The phrase...when there’s no getting over that rainbow in I Won’t Last A Day Without You. I actually like that phrase. It funny how we like and dislike and hear differently. I just listened again to be sure I remembered it in the manner as I thought. I just love this song and it’s possible we are looking through different glasses. I always thought that was the’live’ feature as the voice is similar to From This Monent On in the live recording from the Palladium. Years ago, there was a Steven who said Karen’s voice changed (although I disagreed) during the exhaustion period and maybe this is an example he thought of. I just think it’s a matter of ‘sweetening’ and mastering.
  21. Carpe diem

    Carpe diem Well-Known Member

    :righton::righton: Thank You!!
  22. Carpe diem

    Carpe diem Well-Known Member

    Hopefully, modern technology and Richard's TLC can give this great Karen performance the vindication it so richly deserves on this upcoming RPO event. Nasaly or not.
  23. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Well-Known Member

    Well, in the States with Thanksgiving and Christmas so close to one another it just makes commercial sense to run them together.
  24. tomswift2002

    tomswift2002 Well-Known Member

    I’ve been listening to the Beach Boys CD recently and one some of the tracks like “Kokomo” it sounds like they’ve played around with the vocal tracks as well to where not only the instrumentation but the vocals sound different as well.
    Carpe diem likes this.
  25. Harry

    Harry Charter A&M Corner Member Moderator

    Right. Most All-Christmas stations start around Thanksgiving.
    Carpe diem likes this.

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